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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 62198 times)

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Psyduck

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2014, 09:32:36 am »
+1

I must certainly agree to what shark_bait said about Masterpiece. It *is* a strong card under certain conditions. These conditions are a) BM, b) slogs with junking and c) Feodum. True, sometimes there are faster options on the board, But sometimes Masterpiece is a really good choice, so it should not be in the bottom $3 cards. Personally, I had it on #14 I think, which might me a little too high actually.

One card I'm missing in the list so far is Doctor. This cards feels awful! Okay, it's a trasher, and trashing is good as we know. But you need to be lucky (and/or track you deck) for Doctor to be really effective. Often you just name the wrong cards and Doctor just wasts your action. It's a big deal that it's terminal. A non-terminal doctor would be a lot stronger. The on-play effect is really weak in my opinion and mostly helps to get rid of some coppers in the early game.
The on-buy effect is much better, but you need to have some money to do it effectively. In games with strong junking, where trashing the junk would help a lot, you don't have much money in your hands because of the junk. And then you get the on-buy effect only once and afterwards have one more junk card in you deck.
I feel that more often than not Doctor is just not worth the effort to buy and play it.

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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2014, 10:04:03 am »
0

nope, doctor is strong. just get him early enough.

Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2014, 10:14:26 am »
+1

One card I'm missing in the list so far is Doctor. This cards feels awful! Okay, it's a trasher, and trashing is good as we know. But you need to be lucky (and/or track you deck) for Doctor to be really effective. Often you just name the wrong cards and Doctor just wasts your action.
Why wouldn't you track your deck?

Doctor shines in engine games without junking, it's almost as fast as Chapel as long as you can clear out most of the starting 10 before you have a deck full of cards that you don't want to trash. It's also nice that it can trigger a reshuffle without having to trash anything in the late game, though it's also a part of the reason why you want to trigger the reshuffle so...  ::)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 10:15:56 am by Awaclus »
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2014, 10:17:32 am »
0

nope, doctor is strong. just get him early enough.

Doctor, doctor, gimme the news
I got a bad case of lovin' you
No pill's gonna cure my ill
I got a bad case of lovin' you
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2014, 10:24:12 am »
0

I also think doctor is pretty bad, but the times it comes through are more valuable than the benefits of the worst 3 cost cards.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2014, 01:19:42 pm »
+1

The only thing I have against Doctor is that we don't have equal starting hands. A player opening 5/2 w/Doctor has a huge advantage. Even a player opening 4/3 against a 3/4 opening has a huge advantage with Doctor. A good early Doctor opening really unbalances the game if the opposing player doesn't get the same opening opportunity. So, in other words, I think Doctor is strong, but also swingy because we don't have the option of starting with the same starting hands.
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Psyduck

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2014, 02:57:21 pm »
0

One card I'm missing in the list so far is Doctor. This cards feels awful! Okay, it's a trasher, and trashing is good as we know. But you need to be lucky (and/or track you deck) for Doctor to be really effective. Often you just name the wrong cards and Doctor just wasts your action.
Why wouldn't you track your deck?

Doctor shines in engine games without junking, it's almost as fast as Chapel as long as you can clear out most of the starting 10 before you have a deck full of cards that you don't want to trash. It's also nice that it can trigger a reshuffle without having to trash anything in the late game, though it's also a part of the reason why you want to trigger the reshuffle so...  ::)

Because I can't. Of course I can during the second shuffle and the third shuffle usually works quite well, too. But from then on I can't remember all cards I've seen during that shuffle, which didn't miss it, along with reconsidering and following a strategy, making tatctical decisions, adapting to opponent and draws etc.
You might argue that this is a problem of my play rather than of the card, but I'm no memory artist and dominion is just a hobby. I feel that the vast majority of players can't track their deck completely.

You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.
I've never thought about Doctor's reshuffle-triggering ability in this context, though. :D
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Holger

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2014, 03:08:13 pm »
0

You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.

With a 5/2 opening, a $5 Doctor usually trashes faster than Chapel - 2 cards on turn 1, and usually another 2 cards on turn 2 or 3 when you first draw it, and so on (except for the last few remaining starting cards). With this opening, I think I'd prefer it over Chapel as an opening buy e.g. in a Fool's Gold game. Of course Doctor is much weaker with a 4/3 or even 3/4 opening (and in Shelter games).
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2014, 04:00:11 pm »
+1

You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.

With a 5/2 opening, a $5 Doctor usually trashes faster than Chapel - 2 cards on turn 1, and usually another 2 cards on turn 2 or 3 when you first draw it, and so on (except for the last few remaining starting cards). With this opening, I think I'd prefer it over Chapel as an opening buy e.g. in a Fool's Gold game. Of course Doctor is much weaker with a 4/3 or even 3/4 opening (and in Shelter games).

But if you open $5 Doctor, you may be giving up the $5 power card that you would get alongside Chapel (especially if you get the $5 on turn 2).  It might be worthwhile sometimes, but it's certainly not cut-and-dried.  I would expect the Chapel opening to be better most of the time, depending on what other $2s and $5s were on the board.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 04:01:14 pm by eHalcyon »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2014, 04:16:47 pm »
0

Obviously Chapel is much better, but Doctor can be as fast (while being worse in other ways).
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2014, 04:49:50 pm »
0

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2014, 05:26:29 pm »
0

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2014, 06:10:58 pm »
0

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.
Even better if you can pick those cards up with a Chapel.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2014, 06:16:42 pm »
+1

You compare Doctor with Chapel? Really?? ??? Chapel is so much stronger. I don't think I would ever buy Doctor over Chapel in any game.

With a 5/2 opening, a $5 Doctor usually trashes faster than Chapel - 2 cards on turn 1, and usually another 2 cards on turn 2 or 3 when you first draw it, and so on (except for the last few remaining starting cards). With this opening, I think I'd prefer it over Chapel as an opening buy e.g. in a Fool's Gold game. Of course Doctor is much weaker with a 4/3 or even 3/4 opening (and in Shelter games).

But if you open $5 Doctor, you may be giving up the $5 power card that you would get alongside Chapel (especially if you get the $5 on turn 2).  It might be worthwhile sometimes, but it's certainly not cut-and-dried.  I would expect the Chapel opening to be better most of the time, depending on what other $2s and $5s were on the board.

I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board and we have a Witch or Mountebank or any sort of engine. You are not giving up the power card by getting Doctor first. Instead you are very effectively clearing your deck so that when you do get the power $5, you can play it more often and more effectively.

The only exception to that is if Chapel is also on the board, I would likely take Chapel and the power $5, but in my experience a 5/2 Doctor is faster at trashing than Chapel.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:17:54 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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hsiale

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2014, 06:24:42 pm »
+13

I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board
I'd like to know how you do this, seems useful.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2014, 07:48:29 pm »
0

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.

i would. i really think $5 doctor opening is as good as it gets. you trash 2 cards immediately, your deck is then so small that you are likely to hit at least 2 cards with doctor, often 3, without giving up on your current turn.

i once opened doctor for $6 and hit all three estates

Twistedarcher

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2014, 10:25:41 pm »
0

My main differences:

I had Woodcutter and Trade Route, both with +buy, much higher than average. They're often extremely relevant just by virtue of being the only +buy in the game.

I had Loan and Doctor, both trashers, lower than average. Loan's never spectacular -- if it's the only trasher, I may get it, but it's about last in terms of trashing. I also find I rarely buy doctor unless I open 5/2.

I guess I seriously seriously underrate Storeroom -- I had it in this section, although I haven't played with it much.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2014, 05:59:07 pm »
+1

I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board and we have a Witch or Mountebank or any sort of engine. You are not giving up the power card by getting Doctor first. Instead you are very effectively clearing your deck so that when you do get the power $5, you can play it more often and more effectively.

The only exception to that is if Chapel is also on the board, I would likely take Chapel and the power $5, but in my experience a 5/2 Doctor is faster at trashing than Chapel.

I was talking about the situation with Chapel on the board. :)

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.

i would. i really think $5 doctor opening is as good as it gets. you trash 2 cards immediately, your deck is then so small that you are likely to hit at least 2 cards with doctor, often 3, without giving up on your current turn.

i once opened doctor for $6 and hit all three estates

You trash 2 cards immediately, then your deck still has 9 cards in it.  There's no guarantee that you'll hit your Estates either, and if you don't then it could take a few turns to hit $5.  It gets even worse if you then draw your Doctor with your remaining Estates, killing your current turn and discouraging you from even playing Doctor, because you don't want to completely destroy your economy.  In the meantime, any Curses from the opponent will be a significant portion of your think deck, making it even harder to hit $5.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure $5 Doctor opening can be very good, but I seriously doubt that it is as good as it gets.
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luser

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2014, 10:41:29 pm »
+2

I always open 5/2 if Doctor is on the board and we have a Witch or Mountebank or any sort of engine. You are not giving up the power card by getting Doctor first. Instead you are very effectively clearing your deck so that when you do get the power $5, you can play it more often and more effectively.

The only exception to that is if Chapel is also on the board, I would likely take Chapel and the power $5, but in my experience a 5/2 Doctor is faster at trashing than Chapel.

I was talking about the situation with Chapel on the board. :)

$5 doctor is better than any chapel opening i think

I would not give up opening Wharf or Witch/Mountebank/Cultist just to get Doctor, just to name a few.

i would. i really think $5 doctor opening is as good as it gets. you trash 2 cards immediately, your deck is then so small that you are likely to hit at least 2 cards with doctor, often 3, without giving up on your current turn.

i once opened doctor for $6 and hit all three estates

You trash 2 cards immediately, then your deck still has 9 cards in it.  There's no guarantee that you'll hit your Estates either,

The probability of hitting 2 coppers and not three estates is 1/10. That is pretty good given that with probability 1/6 chapel misses shuffle and you first use it in turn 5.

Quote
and if you don't then it could take a few turns to hit $5.  It gets even worse if you then draw your Doctor with your remaining Estates, killing your current turn and discouraging you from even playing Doctor, because you don't want to completely destroy your economy.
That is a 1/40 probability event which is simply a bad luck.

Quote
In the meantime, any Curses from the opponent will be a significant portion of your think deck, making it even harder to hit $5.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure $5 Doctor opening can be very good, but I seriously doubt that it is as good as it gets.

With junker you need chapel anyway as doctor is weak when it needs to deal with curses estates and copper so by opening chapel you saved one buy.

Also a wharf/governor/tactician considerably strengthen chapel as with 7+ card hand you could trash and do something useful.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2014, 10:40:52 am »
+2

I think my new worst $3 card is Trade route. It's a bad opening card because in the opening there is almost always something better than a poor soft trasher. Trade route at the begining of the game really slow down. Even as the only source of +buy, you don't want it too early and later in the game it's usually too late because you are already greening. Overall, Trade route is a card I'll take at the end of the game when I have nothing else to buy, and I play it a single time in the whole game.

It's not a terrible card, I already had games where Trade route helped me a lot for a three pile ending or to take the last province, but I think the benefit of a card like chancellor, during the whole game, is more valuable than a trade route that is only really useful at the end of the game.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2014, 12:37:24 pm »
+5

Masterpiece certainly doesn't deserve a spot among the top 10.  In making this list I've thought a bit about my ranking of the card and I certainly believe it is a very good $3-cost card.  It is unique in the $3 cost cards in that it is the only treasure and that apart from Masquerade it is really the only card that is really good for BM (although Masquerade is also phenomenal in engines).  That makes it really hard to rate against the other cards.  This is making me want to have compartmentalized lists for things like Engine, BM and Slog.  That could allow more niche cards to be rated solely in an area where they shine more rather than have these lists where people may be putting emphasis more on a particular deck archetype.

I think Masterpiece deserves to be in the top 10 of the $3 cost cards. I put it at #8.

A game I played last night reminded me of shark_bait's post. My record is quite good with this card -- I kind of hope everyone else keeps under-rating it! Of my last 20 online games where Masterpiece appeared, it was purchased in 12 games; I purchase it in 10 of the games. I won 7 of those 10. Of the three I lost, one was very close and one was a 3 player mirror match and one was a two-player mirror match. Of the two in which I didn't purchase it, one time was correct (and I won without it), and the other time was questionable (but I won). In reverse-chronological order:

1. Polk5440 def. No Pawns Intended and Bella Cullen. I buy only Silvers, Masterpiece, and green against two Rebuilders and win convincingly.
2. Polk5440 def. vogue. Colony, Menagerie game. Vogue buys Masterpiece (a mistake) and loses.
3. Polk5440 def. Wandering Winder. Soothsayer/Masterpiece mirror match.
4. Polk5440 def. TheMirrorMan.. Masterpiece-Feodum-Monument almost-mirror where the only difference was my Explorer to his Hunting Grounds, Trading Post, and Talisman. I win the Silver split. :P
5. Polk5440 def. Kirian. Masterpiece-Scavenger vs. Knights and Graverobber. Colony game. Masterpiece rushing Provinces wins convincingly.
6. No Pawns Intended def. Bella Cullen and Polk5440. Masquerade, Masterpiece, and Hoard mirror.
7. lightbulb def. Polk5440. Chapel, Lighthouse, Stonemason, Masquerade, Masterpiece, Swindler, Gardens, Remodel, Salvager, Worker's Village, Young Witch. A pretty interesting game where Masterpiece was the bane; I lose by one point. I am not sure how my turn 8 and 9 Masterpiece buys rate.
8. Polk5440 def. frankdom. Essentially Masterpiece-Jack of All Trades for me versus  Knights. Masterpiece-Jack wins convincingly.
9. Polk5440 def. No Pawns Intended and Bella Cullen. They rely on Masterpiece to get a few silvers into Grand Markets. I go crazy with Sage-Border Village-Couting House-Coppersmith. I win, but only because No Pawns Intended played kingmaker at the end. But it was very close.
10. Polk5440 def. Perry Green. Crossroads, Masterpiece, Smugglers, Warehouse, Baron, Gardens, Ironmonger, Mine, Royal Seal, Saboteur. Often, I go with Masterpiece buys on $4; he avoids them. I win.
11. Polk5440 def. Perry Green.. Here I buy Masterpiece on $4 to beef up Fairgrounds midgame. Not that important. But it was an interesting Rebuild game!
12. Erazure def. Polk5440. Masquerade-Masterpiece mirror match.

In summary, Masterpiece is good when you want lots of silvers or lots of cards. It's a great defense against Knights, great with Feodum, great as a quick infusion of cash.

Edited counts.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:31:11 pm by Polk5440 »
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MarkowKette

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2014, 10:36:21 am »
+1

I have to say i do mainly agree with the list so far. Yeah maybe theese and those 2 cards on places X and X+1 should swap places but that is minor.
So far i read "card Y should be a lot higher, how is it in the bottom 10?" followed by a reason why this card is actually good. But most of the time that person doesn't name a card which should be placed in the bottom 10 instead.
The thing with $3 cards is, there just arn't any real bad ones. There is a reason why on almoast every board you are really happy when your $3 card gets swindled.(yes i know $2 and $5 cards can bbe swapped with green cards and coppers with curses so for those numbers there is always a really bad replacement, but if you just compare this effect to swindled $4 cards you will see what i mean)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 12:14:33 pm by MarkowKette »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2014, 01:18:31 pm »
+3

Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2014, 01:24:14 pm »
0

Lookout is 2.9pp higher than Masterpiece... I mean I guess you could say that's a jump of nearly 4pp, but I think you probably meant 3pp there?
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2014, 04:01:27 pm »
0

The probability of hitting 2 coppers and not three estates is 1/10. That is pretty good given that with probability 1/6 chapel misses shuffle and you first use it in turn 5.

Quote
and if you don't then it could take a few turns to hit $5.  It gets even worse if you then draw your Doctor with your remaining Estates, killing your current turn and discouraging you from even playing Doctor, because you don't want to completely destroy your economy.
That is a 1/40 probability event which is simply a bad luck.

Might be a 1/10 chance for hitting two copper, but there's also the chance of hitting one copper which also isn't that great.  You have 24% chance of hitting two Estates.  But hey, this is assuming you open 5/2.  What if you open 2/5?  You'll be an additional turn behind if you skip the $2 hand, or you'll drop the percentages for a good Doctor overpay if you buy something.

Again, Doctor is a good opening.  I am not arguing against that.  But silerspawn said that $5 Doctor is the BEST opening, better than any Chapel opening and "as good as it gets".  I am saying that it isn't at all clear that Doctor is the very best, and that there are certainly boards where Chapel would be the better choice.

Quote
In the meantime, any Curses from the opponent will be a significant portion of your think deck, making it even harder to hit $5.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure $5 Doctor opening can be very good, but I seriously doubt that it is as good as it gets.

With junker you need chapel anyway as doctor is weak when it needs to deal with curses estates and copper so by opening chapel you saved one buy.

Also a wharf/governor/tactician considerably strengthen chapel as with 7+ card hand you could trash and do something useful.

So you agree that Chapel with a strong junker or Wharf (or Governor, which I didn't call out myself) would beat out a $5 Doctor opening?  If so, I don't think we are in disagreement.  I'm not saying that Doctor is weak.  I'm just saying that it isn't the best $5 opening ever when there is Chapel and a strong power $5 on the board to consider.
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