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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 62513 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2014, 03:56:35 pm »
0

I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2014, 03:58:06 pm »
+2

I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2014, 04:02:21 pm »
0

Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 04:04:45 pm »
+1

Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?

Oracle is a pretty good terminal draw card in my opinion.  The attack is a bonus.  It's not the best terminal draw, but the low cost is good in Kingdoms where the village is expensive (Bandit Camp, BV, etc)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 04:07:52 pm »
0

I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 04:13:16 pm »
+1

If Oasis is on the board, I rarely play the game without a single Oasis in my deck. Early, it's pretty nice because you can discard the Estates, and later, it's not a stop card. I have it at 21 and now I think that's a little too low (should have been higher than Storeroom).

Oracle is sometimes ignorable, but usually pretty good. Its sometimes possible to build an engine with Oracle as the main draw, and that's very impressive for a $3 card. It also goes pretty well as a secondary draw in an engine, and it's also usable as a Big Money terminal if the board sucks. I have it at 13.

In the bottom 11, I had Tunnel, Black Market and Lookout instead of Smugglers, Sage and Wishing Well.

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P
What about all those times when Scout gives +1 action? Can your Workshop do that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 04:18:12 pm »
0

This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

I thought Fortune Teller is only second most underrated card here... behind Loan. I guess I have a hard time believing that Loan isn't good. There are enough better trashers that it's not worth it often enough? I would think there's also enough better attacks that Fortune Teller isn't worth it even more often.

Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?

Oracle is better because the draw is more useful that +$2 in most relevant situations.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 04:22:18 pm »
0

This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

I thought Fortune Teller is only second most underrated card here... behind Loan. I guess I have a hard time believing that Loan isn't good. There are enough better trashers that it's not worth it often enough? I would think there's also enough better attacks that Fortune Teller isn't worth it even more often.

Huh, I always kind of confuse Oracle and Fortune Teller, but when I remember which one is which I often think of Fortune Teller as the stronger one.  Everyone thinks Oracle is a lot better?  Because of the filtering option?

Oracle is better because the draw is more useful that +$2 in most relevant situations.

Maybe I'm focusing more on the attacks than on the benefits.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2014, 04:25:29 pm »
+2

I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.  This is the classic subjective valuation thing.  Do you rate a card higher for being strong rarely even though it's weak the majority of the time, or do you rate it higher for being solid every time even if it's never a standout power card?  You have to think about both, and everybody will weigh those scales differently.  Personally, I just find Workshop to be weak too often, and even when it's good it isn't stellar.  Oasis may never dominate but it is almost always useful. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2014, 05:43:44 pm »
0

I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.  This is the classic subjective valuation thing.  Do you rate a card higher for being strong rarely even though it's weak the majority of the time, or do you rate it higher for being solid every time even if it's never a standout power card?  You have to think about both, and everybody will weigh those scales differently.  Personally, I just find Workshop to be weak too often, and even when it's good it isn't stellar.  Oasis may never dominate but it is almost always useful.

"Almost always" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It's probably not that much more often than Workshop.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2014, 07:50:12 pm »
+2

I know that oracle has some fans, but oasis? come on...

Oasis is no star, but it's a solid card and a fine addition to most decks. :)

and what about all those times when workshop dominates a board? can your oasis do that?  :P

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.  This is the classic subjective valuation thing.  Do you rate a card higher for being strong rarely even though it's weak the majority of the time, or do you rate it higher for being solid every time even if it's never a standout power card?  You have to think about both, and everybody will weigh those scales differently.  Personally, I just find Workshop to be weak too often, and even when it's good it isn't stellar.  Oasis may never dominate but it is almost always useful.

"Almost always" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. It's probably not that much more often than Workshop.

At least you can gain Oases with Workshop. Ha! Can your Oasis do that?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2014, 07:53:03 pm »
+1

My thoughts on the list so far:

1. I would at least flip Woodcutter and Great Hall, and maybe put Woodcutter above Develop and Great Hall below Chancellor.  Woodcutter is a "terrible" card, but sometimes it's the only +buy on the board, and when it is, it can be a complete game changer.  It's sometimes the last piece that turns a kingdom from BM into engine (or at least from a BM-hybrid type deck into an engine deck).  Great Hall, on the other hand, very rarely has much impact on the game.  Sure, it rarely hurts your deck, but the benefit is also very small.  It's not even that great with the iron cards.  It can build up a small lead, but that's usually not worth the trouble unless you want the Ironworks anyway; and in that case, you want IW to pick up whatever other $4 cards you wanted, not GH's.  And actually spending $3 and a buy for one point and a chance to hit it with Ironmonger is a lot of trouble to go to for not much benefit.  Develop I still don't really understand, so it's possible I'm underrating it, but it seems very situational; even on the boards with good cards at each price you want to pick up and top-deck, it's a terminal one-card trasher, which means you're giving up most of this turn's hand.

2. Fortune Teller is underrated.  I think this is generally because it's hard to actually see the effect of the attack.  According to Geronimoo's simulator, Fortune Teller-BM only loses to Militia-BM by 42/52/6, and Militia is considered a great $4.  Of course, BM is not a good comparison, since attacks generally encourage engines, and other cards may offer better responses to FT than they do to Militia (on average).  Still, it gives a good sense of how much the attack hurts.  I had Fortune Teller at #24; it's not great, but it's not as bad as people seem to think it is.

3. Sage is overrated.  It can be good at the beginning of the game, but it becomes worse and worse as the game progresses (maybe it gets slightly better early on, but in the long run it gets worse).  It shouldn't be above Trade Route, Loan, or Smugglers.

4. Loan is underrated.  It's a pretty decent non-terminal trasher, and it can't be drawn dead either.  The existence of Forager makes it look pretty bad I guess, but Forager is outstanding.  Loan is not a great $3, but it's decent.  I had it at #21.

5. Masterpiece is overrated.  I don't know where it is yet, but we should have seen it by now.  I had it at #27, which is maybe low, but it's a very dedicated Silver flooder, which means if you go for it at all, you're probably not going to be seeing your other kingdom cards very much.  Most of the kingdom cards are "better" than Silver, though that's not quite fair because you would usually rather be flooded with Silver than with X for a random kingdom card X (i.e. kingdom cards generally prefer to connect with other kingdom cards, whereas Silver is just money that can come up anywhere in your deck).  Still, it's not often that the other 9 kingdom cards don't provide you with something better to do than flood your deck with Silver.
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7string

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2014, 08:58:17 pm »
+1

Really interesting dialog on these $3 cards!  Can't wait to see how it goes with the next couple lists.  This time I only had a single card with the exact same ranking (Wishing Well at #24).  All my others were different, and I had 2 cards in the bottom 11 which didn't show up on this list...

I do think Woodcutter deserves a little better than #33.  As someone said - it is a buy.  To me, the hardest thing to find is an extra buy, and there are so many games without it.  Woodcutter certainly is not strong, and of course I would rather have a Forager or better card, but if there are no other buys in the game Woodcutter at $3 often helps.  Especially if you have to catch up near the end of the game and need extra buys in an engine.

I agree with most of the comments on Sage, but I do think it can sometimes be very strong early in the game...especially to find key attack cards like any of the witches or cursers.  To me, early in the game, Sage can zero in on those essential cards like a Hunting Party.  Obviously not great as the game progresses and greening starts, but fast deck cycling early in the game, and ability to increase the frequency of playing cursers seems to me to warrant a little more respect.  I had it at #22...

And all your comments will have me taking a 2nd look at Develop and Masterpiece...neither of which I often buy.  I also had Lookout in this bottom group.  I'm probably underrating it, but I can't seem to get beyond the memory of having too many times when 3 good cards are on the top of my deck and I had to decide whether to trash (for example) a Gold, a Province, or a Grand Market ; )

Keep up the good comments...to me the dialog is the important learning part of this process, and often more important than the actual new rankings themselves.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:59:22 pm by 7string »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2014, 10:26:36 pm »
+7

5. Masterpiece is overrated.  I don't know where it is yet, but we should have seen it by now.  I had it at #27, which is maybe low, but it's a very dedicated Silver flooder, which means if you go for it at all, you're probably not going to be seeing your other kingdom cards very much.  Most of the kingdom cards are "better" than Silver, though that's not quite fair because you would usually rather be flooded with Silver than with X for a random kingdom card X (i.e. kingdom cards generally prefer to connect with other kingdom cards, whereas Silver is just money that can come up anywhere in your deck).  Still, it's not often that the other 9 kingdom cards don't provide you with something better to do than flood your deck with Silver.

The thing is, this list isn't "The Best Cards for Dominion Engines".  Masterpiece is a BM enabler.  Yeah, you won't often see your other cards in a Masterpiece deck.  But in the absence of discard attacks you don't need to as it's very easy to get to $8 with boatloads of Silver and a few Copper.

I will agree that there are often Kingdoms that I play with Masterpiece where I say, "Man, I wish I could go Masterpiece but it's just not viable."  However on the flip side Masterpiece is an extremely reliable BM deck to play that greens exceptionally well.  It's also relevant in Slog type games wherein you are not looking to recover to engine but instead looking for a more money based recovery. 

So yeah, in terms of engine use, this card is terrible.  But the degree to which it improves BM warrants a good ranking above many of the $3-cost cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 10:56:37 pm »
0

This list is fine. Fortune Teller should be higher, though. Higher than Loan. Fortune Teller hurts.

I thought Fortune Teller is only second most underrated card here... behind Loan. I guess I have a hard time believing that Loan isn't good. There are enough better trashers that it's not worth it often enough? I would think there's also enough better attacks that Fortune Teller isn't worth it even more often.

Trashing is underrated and hugely important... but Loan is bad. There's almost always a better way to trash.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2014, 12:49:05 am »
+1

5. Masterpiece is overrated.  I don't know where it is yet, but we should have seen it by now.  I had it at #27, which is maybe low, but it's a very dedicated Silver flooder, which means if you go for it at all, you're probably not going to be seeing your other kingdom cards very much.  Most of the kingdom cards are "better" than Silver, though that's not quite fair because you would usually rather be flooded with Silver than with X for a random kingdom card X (i.e. kingdom cards generally prefer to connect with other kingdom cards, whereas Silver is just money that can come up anywhere in your deck).  Still, it's not often that the other 9 kingdom cards don't provide you with something better to do than flood your deck with Silver.

The thing is, this list isn't "The Best Cards for Dominion Engines".  Masterpiece is a BM enabler.  Yeah, you won't often see your other cards in a Masterpiece deck.  But in the absence of discard attacks you don't need to as it's very easy to get to $8 with boatloads of Silver and a few Copper.

I will agree that there are often Kingdoms that I play with Masterpiece where I say, "Man, I wish I could go Masterpiece but it's just not viable."  However on the flip side Masterpiece is an extremely reliable BM deck to play that greens exceptionally well.  It's also relevant in Slog type games wherein you are not looking to recover to engine but instead looking for a more money based recovery. 

So yeah, in terms of engine use, this card is terrible.  But the degree to which it improves BM warrants a good ranking above many of the $3-cost cards.

Yeah, I agree with this, but that last sentence I said, that the other 9 kingdom cards usually offer something better to do than Masterpiece-BM, is where we disagree I guess.  I think having it at #23 or better is an overestimate of how often "good" BM is the winning strategy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2014, 01:13:44 am »
+8

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2014, 03:16:59 am »
0

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2014, 09:04:13 am »
0

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2014, 09:12:28 am »
0

I just played an IRL game that featured workshop, Ironmonger, Tunnel, Native village, Noble Brigand, Journeyman, Rogue, fortune teller, and 2 other cards I'm forgetting.  It was 3P, so we all ended up with 2 workshops, I got 6 tunnels and most of the ironmongers off workshops, then since there were only 4 workshops, piled those for the win.  Sure, it wouldn't have been as short as 2P, but workshop would still be dominant here

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2014, 09:12:38 am »
+2

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2014, 09:18:02 am »
0

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
It could have happened with Ambassador or Swindler too and you'd have to come to the same conclusion. Any of your openings finding themselves on turn 5 makes the card suck, including Chapel.

I've played this board a bunch with the bots, and I've found Remodel/Workshop to be an effective opening I think. What are people's thoughts here? Or should I just check the winning bot of the simulation challenge?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2014, 09:36:24 am »
+8

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1394628603603.txt

Masterpiece overcomes 7/3 Curse split from Sea Hag with help from Baker and Merchant Guild tokens.  Opponent opts for Gold/Bank over Masterpiece.  Masterpiece wins.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140301/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1393691774544.txt

BM/Smith/Masterpiece eats up 4 Provinces and 5 Duchies in 16 turns.  Opponent went for a Spice Merchant/Steward/Market Square trash to mass Gold strategy.  Masterpiece wins as opponents deck stalls on the last few green cards.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140220/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1392936190334.txt

BM/Smithy/Masterpiece loses vs. a draw engine with Silver as payload.  I'm convinced Masterpiece was the right move here.  Masterpiece has 3 Provinces after 11 turns with a total of 16 Silver and 2 Smithies in deck.  Turn 12 nets $4.  Turn 13 nets $6.  Turn 14 nets $4.  Turn 15 nets $5.  Turn 15 nets $5.  Turn 17 finally has enough for Province and game is lost by 1 point due to 1st player advantage.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140214/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1392421581526.txt

Mirror match of BM/Wharf/Masterpiece.  Masterpiece wins.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131216/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1387257340226.txt

Masterpiece helps overcome a 7/3 Curse loss.  First Masterpiece should have been Gold in order to play Witch more and not lose the split as bad.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131212/log.505f216aa2e6714a97eee440.1386888935911.txt

Trader/Masterpiece/CR.  I lose as I follow PPR although Masterpiece was still the key card in both of our decks.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131208/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1386528094203.txt

Masterpiece bane overcomes Young Witch cursing.

Alright, so that is my entire history of Goko games with Masterpiece wherein Masterpiece was used.  I played a total of 21 games which included Masterpiece.  So of my 21 games 7 utilized Masterpiece as a key component.  Of these 7 games 2 were mirror matches and the other 5 were not.  Only 1 of the non mirror matches was lost and I'm partially convinced a slew of poor draws combined with 1st player advantage caused that loss.  So in my games I utilized Masterpiece 33% of the time.  In games where opponents ignored Masterpiece win percentage is 80% (4/5) and total win percentage is 71%.  My win percentage for all games is 60%.  I guess 7 games is a rather low sample set but it's not like I'm losing when I utilized Masterpiece.  Only using it 33% of the time may be low when you think of other cards that are picked up around 100% of the time that they are in the Kingdom like Masquerade, Fishing Village, etc.  But I think the real power is shown that Masterpiece is able to win despite losing curse splits against opponents who ignore Masterpiece.

Masterpiece certainly doesn't deserve a spot among the top 10.  In making this list I've thought a bit about my ranking of the card and I certainly believe it is a very good $3-cost card.  It is unique in the $3 cost cards in that it is the only treasure and that apart from Masquerade it is really the only card that is really good for BM (although Masquerade is also phenomenal in engines).  That makes it really hard to rate against the other cards.  This is making me want to have compartmentalized lists for things like Engine, BM and Slog.  That could allow more niche cards to be rated solely in an area where they shine more rather than have these lists where people may be putting emphasis more on a particular deck archetype.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2014, 06:03:00 pm »
+1

As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
It could have happened with Ambassador or Swindler too and you'd have to come to the same conclusion. Any of your openings finding themselves on turn 5 makes the card suck, including Chapel.

I've played this board a bunch with the bots, and I've found Remodel/Workshop to be an effective opening I think. What are people's thoughts here? Or should I just check the winning bot of the simulation challenge?

Remodel/Workshop is pretty solid.
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2014, 10:41:20 pm »
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As I said, Oasis is no star.  but Workshop very, very rarely dominates a board.
How do you like it on this board: Cellar, Market, Militia, Mine, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop.

I like it on that board. :P
Particularly in 2-player.

i recently played on this board when we had a couple of relatives here for visit. i opened double workshop, they collided on turn 5. great card.
It could have happened with Ambassador or Swindler too and you'd have to come to the same conclusion. Any of your openings finding themselves on turn 5 makes the card suck, including Chapel.

I've played this board a bunch with the bots, and I've found Remodel/Workshop to be an effective opening I think. What are people's thoughts here? Or should I just check the winning bot of the simulation challenge?

Remodel/Workshop is pretty solid.

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/ for those who don't get the reference.
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