Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All

Author Topic: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread  (Read 21253 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3525
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 03:55:57 pm »
+1

Responses without quotes:

Game 1:

I'm notoriously bad at games like this, I just can't build Village/Draw engines.

Don't sell yourself short.  We followed the same strategy and modest amounts of shuffle luck have huge long-term impact on boards like this.  Your only clear mistake was leaving me such a sure-fire 3-pile win.

The differences between our implementations were:
  • My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.
  • I focused less on Baker and more on villages and CR.  My reasoning here was that this isn't a setup where storing coin tokens is key, so Baker is more like a Peddler, while the payoff to CR's giant hands is large because of SM.
Game 2:

This game. You can hear my commentary throughout the game, I really should have won this game, I'm quite convinced of it. Is there anything I could have done better here? I really really really don't think so.

This confidence seems unwarranted.  It's clear that my plan was bad, but you're either overestimating your own plan or neglecting the other options on this board.

Try some practice games (or set up a sim) with Silver/Silver into Catacombs-BM vs your Taxman/Silver into 1 Catacombs + money (or more Catacombs, if that was your original plan).  Also try the plan that SCSN suggested to me: Plaza/Silver open into Library-Plaza with Misfits serving as one or more Plazas and acting as a Taxman when you draw it without a Library.  Neither he nor I is overwhelmingly convinced that this beats Catacombs-BM, but it looks quite strong.  I expect Taxman/Silver to take third place, but it's not a question that can be resolved with theoretical discussion. 

Game 3:

Rebuild mirror from second seat against the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild. My chances of victory here are 0%.

I lose a lot of Rebuild games.  That's one of the defining attributes of Rebuild. :D

I also didn't play this one terribly well.  SCSN already pointed out the strength of the Minion engine, and I entirely agree that it's the stronger choice.  But even ignoring Minion, my Rebuild play wasn't all that good, particularly during the Duchy race.

For those who might otherwise be tempted to "learn" from my Rebuild play here, my early CMs were a poor choice.  The "virtue" of an early CM over an early Silver is: a) you can save a token early when the rest of your hand totals $2, $3, or $5; b) you'll have +buys later for an Estate blitz strategy.  But $5+CM hands are very unlikely if you're buying CM over Silver, and a $3+CM hand is obviously inferior to $3+S.  AdamH caught a couple extra early Rebuilds, but I still would have split Duchies 4-4 without difficulty if my CMs had been Silver.  As it was, I very nearly lost the split as first player.

The key strategic moment was AdamH's choice on T8 to rush Estates along with me.  Since he had 4 Duchies/0 Estates to my 4 Duchies/+1 Estate, he would have been better served by keeping his deck Estate-free until the very end.  If I'm blitzing Estates, I can definitely expect a Rebuild to miss a Duchy once or twice, while Adam's will hit every time.  He'll probably win by just out-Rebuilding me, but by saving coin-tokens and adding (FV/Chancellor/Minion)s, he has a further chance to buy a Province for the win even if I'm lucky enough to consistently hit my Duchies while piling up Estates.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2789
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3813
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 04:02:25 pm »
+1

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.
Logged
I respond to PMs.

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3525
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 04:05:54 pm »
0

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2789
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3813
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 04:08:13 pm »
0

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P
Logged
I respond to PMs.

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 04:14:08 pm »
+1

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

I think your premise is wrong. At ~5:00 you state, that you'd like to get a zillion villages before you get CR. That's not a good idea. You typically want to get the drawer first before you get your first village. Especially if you have a chance of hitting 7 or 8$ with 2 buys via CR.
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3525
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 04:22:48 pm »
+1

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

Until T8 all the differences are minor.  Compare the decks at the end of T7.

T8 was big for me because I caught double-Village/CR.  Incidentally, this is the point in the game at which CR begins to dominate Baker.  The decks are dense enough that you're very likely to draw Village-CR combos.  Clearly that turn wouldn't have been nearly as strong if I had had Bakers instead of CRs.

But it's hard to take any result too seriously on such a knife-edged board.  Small differences blow up quickly when it's so easy to build.  Large differences in outcome don't imply large errors or even large differences in luck.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

AdamH

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2789
  • Shuffle iT Username: Adam Horton
  • You make your own shuffle luck
  • Respect: +3813
    • View Profile
    • My Dominion Videos
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 04:35:14 pm »
0

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

I think your premise is wrong. At ~5:00 you state, that you'd like to get a zillion villages before you get CR. That's not a good idea. You typically want to get the drawer first before you get your first village. Especially if you have a chance of hitting 7 or 8$ with 2 buys via CR.

This is a good point. That statement just isn't true. Perhaps I was too timid in building this engine because I was afraid of drawing things dead, so I always had a CR less than I should have.


Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

Until T8 all the differences are minor.  Compare the decks at the end of T7.

T8 was big for me because I caught double-Village/CR.  Incidentally, this is the point in the game at which CR begins to dominate Baker.  The decks are dense enough that you're very likely to draw Village-CR combos.  Clearly that turn wouldn't have been nearly as strong if I had had Bakers instead of CRs.

But it's hard to take any result too seriously on such a knife-edged board.  Small differences blow up quickly when it's so easy to build.  Large differences in outcome don't imply large errors or even large differences in luck.

I understand. Maybe you're right, but I need to develop a good feel for this kind of deck and what to do with it. Maybe I just need to do some reps with kingdoms like this or something...
Logged
I respond to PMs.

M0G3L

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 04:51:40 pm »
0

Game 1 AHoppy starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394653966171.txt
I think my mistake was that i went for Mercenary
Counterfeit is just good enough Trashing.
Also the Cutpurse was wrong because there is no Copper in a Counterfeitdeck.

Game 2 M0G3L starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394654622877.txt
Cultist Game not really interesting

Game 3 M0G3L starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394655497246.txt
I played Gardens with Woodcutter and Crossroads Support, Crossroads never draw me many Cards because of the Curses from SeaHag. I lost the Cursesplit badly but the curses helped me with my Gardens so i could end the game with buying the last two Curses.

Game 4 AHoppy starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394655981763.txt
Realy interesting Game with Gardens and Silk Road and Ironworks as support, AHoppy went for Silk Road and i went for Gardens, at the end of the Game both Cards was worth the same but i got 1 of his Silk Roads and all Gardens, so I think i won the game because i got 6 Ironworks.

Sorry for the short text, but my English is way to bad to write a complete analysis
Logged

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 06:44:32 pm »
0

lespeutere vs Max7272sp 3-0

1-0
IGG with Oracle support for me. It didn't work out so well, I managed to discard a Tunnel once which was really helpful once for getting a gold as 10th card, second for boosting my economy. He tries to go for IGG via Feast which works surprisingly well, then wins the Tunnel split 6:2, but I get two 4 VP Fairgrounds. He only manages a tie on his turn when he started: 16-16.

2-0
Really fun engine board. I guess I should've added a Market, but the game was over so fast and I preferred the draw of Catacombs to +buy with pseudo +buy of Butcher and Forge available when applied to Catacombs. Alas, 6 provinces in 6 turns is quite decent: 63-11.

3-0
Hey you BM lovers, there you go. No villages, premium draw (Smithy and Wharf), Bank, Counterfeit. With 4/3, he goes for 1 Smithy and quite some Banks with 1 Counterfeit, with 5/2 1 pick up 4 Wharves vs. his 1 Smithy, 2 Platinum vs. his 1, 2 Banks vs. his 5 (and a Haven). Wharves just do it for me, as expected, 6 Colonies for me: 71-41.

Thanks for the games and good luck for the rest of the tournament.
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2385
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4048
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 07:03:27 pm »
+4



Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394558245310.txt



Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Pearl Diver, Shanty Town, Alchemist, Baron, Noble Brigand, City, Graverobber, Venture, King's Court
We both go for an Alchemist Stack with KC and Baron as payload. I open Shanty Town / Potion, but he has 5/2 and opens Potion / Crossroads. We both buy an Alchemist turn 4, but really bad was for me turn 6 where I only get to $2P and my Potion even misses the shuffle, this puts me quite behind. In the next turn my Baron finds an Estate but I only hit $6 instead of $7 and decided to get a Gold to be able to hit $7 soon. My opponent bought Alchemists on both turns 6 and 7. I hit $7 for a King's Court in turn 8. In turn 10 my Potion again misses the shuffle, but was this time able to get an Alchemist. On turns where we hit $5 I go for Cities while he goes for Ventures. He later said that it was a mistake as he will eventually draw his whole deck. In turn 14 he took initiative and bought the first Province. In turn 15 he draws the deck and gets triple Province for a big 4 Province lead. In turn 16 I can draw my whole deck and get double Province + Duchy and hope for a bad turn on his part... which he had. He didn't find his Baron so buys only 1 Province. But my deck was only capable of generating $22P and I needed $23 to win. D'oh. I should have counted this earlier, and should have bought a Baron instead of a Duchy. He draws his deck next turn and wins. So I lost because I was unlucky AND because I gave up too early instead of thinking and grabbing the Baron.


Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394559286966.txt



Code: [Select]
Hermit, Oracle, Familiar, Coppersmith, Young Witch, Duke, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Mint, Wharf, Peddler
Three Cursers, but for me this is clearly a Duke board with Hermit and Haggler as support. He opens Hermit/Silver so I get Hermit/Young Witch. Not sure about Young Witch here, maybe it was a mistake. Both my opening buys miss the shuffle, awesome! But opponent goes for a Wharf BM deck aiming for Provinces, so I still have a chance. I get my first Duchy in turn 8 after getting the Haggler in turn 7. First it seemed he wants to contest the Duchies as gets one in the following turn, but then he still prefers Province and Gold over Duchy. I win the Duchy split 6/2. He had 4 additional Provinces though before I could grab any Duke, so I felt pretty behind, but he stalled pretty hard. He also contested the Dukes a bit, not sure if he should do that, but he wasn't able to hit Province until 7 of the Dukes where gone. I end up winning the Duke split 6/2 too. He has 6 Provinces at that moment, so I'm ahead 4 Duchies over his 2 2-point Dukes and some Curses. He grabs the second last Province and I can win the game by buying the last Province.


Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394560994292.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Herbalist, Squire, Stonemason, Apothecary, Doctor, Caravan, Golem, Hunting Party, Library
This was the most interesting board for me. I have 5/2 and struggled hard between going for an Apothecary deck with the help of Stonemason or if I should buy and overpay for Doctor. I decide to go for the Apothecary route and open Squire/Potion - which maybe should have been Herbalist/Potion, but my opening buys didn't collide, so it didn't matter. My opponent opens Silver/Potion which I didn't like so much. He then picks up a Transmute with $3P over Apothecary, what!? He then uses his Transmute trashing the Estates for Golds and prefers 1 Hunting Party over Double Apothecary and over Double Hunting Party. He later stonemasons Gold into 2 Hunting Parties though. I have a lot of Apothecaries, but he has a lot of Hunting Parties and his deck works so much better while my deck just doesn't come together. He takes the initiative for greening, so I had to green prematurely, but I just weren't able to keep up. He later stopped again to build more what gave me the opportunity to catch up, but his deck was so much better, so this was a clear win for him. I'm interested in feedback on this game. Was my strategy inferior or did I just executed it badly? Should I have opened with Doctor? What would you have done?


Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394562363827.txt



Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Herbalist, Wishing Well, Bishop, Plaza, Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Horn of Plenty, Vault, Expand
The engine is weak here with Wishing Well and Vault as weak draw and Herbalist as weak +Buy and Bishop as weak trasher. I just spam Bandit Camps and Plazas for $4 and $5, get 2 Vaults and play BM. My opponent goes for Horn of Plenty, but with the weak draw and Wishing Well antisynergizing with the Horns this just doesn't work out. After I have 2 Platina and a couple of coin tokens I can hit Colony quite regularly and he just resigns as he realizes that a Horn mega turn just isn't possible on this board.


Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394563888599.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Oracle, Wishing Well, Cutpurse, Death Cart, Fortress, Island, Remake, Merchant Guild, Border Village
This was another neat game. The draw is again weak here in Oracle and Wishing Well, but with Remake the trasher is strong. Also Border Village and Remake/Fortress and Death Cart/Fortress trickery makes the engine superior to Oracle BM, so we both go for it. I open Remake/Silver while he is unlucky with his 5/2 and opens Remake/-. I soon prefer Wishing Well over Silver while he only has 1 WW. He gets Death Cart in turn 8 already while I wait much longer. He also had 3 Merchant Guilds in his deck but only 1 Oracle, I think he should have focussed more on draw early on. In turn 11 I draw my deck and get my Death Cart - which probably should have been a Merchant Guild first, which I noticed next turn and get it there. My oppenent then started to remake Fortresses in a lot of Merchant Guilds, I think way too many, he had 5 MGs in turn 12. Piles were now getting really low, in turn 13 he remade Fortress into the second last MG and Duchy. I get Province/WW in my turn with BV gone, 1 MG and 2 WW left, in hand sight a bit too risky. At that point my deck was better as he had to few draw for that many MGs he had, still he manages to get to 13$ and 3 coin tokens, with 1 more buy he could have tied me. I expect him to go for double Province, but somehow he assumed the MG pile was empty too and goes for Province - double WW, a mistake that will cost him the game.


Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394644119709.txt



Code: [Select]
Scrying Pool, Trade Route, Watchtower, JackOfAllTrades, Moneylender, Contraband, Journeyman, Mine, Outpost, Treasury
This was the most boring game. This is Jack/Journeyman BM. Going from second position I expected to lose this game. We both open Jack/Silver. He gets to $4 in the second shuffle and get the second Jack while I had $5 and buy a Journeyman. Despite having two Jacks he only trashed one Estate while I trashed two of them. So we greened with him being one point ahead. He gets a Journeyman in between as his third terminal. We duchy danced for a little bit, he only hit $7 in turn 14 with 2 Provinces left. With him being 4 points ahead I had to buy the Province in my turn 14. He gets unlucky again and hits $7 again. I reshuffle and with $7 and Journeyman I'm basically guaranteed $8 and win the match luckily.


Thanks for the games Teproc, good luck for the rest of the tournament, and sorry for the unlucky last match for you and the mistake in game 5. A tie would have been deserved for you.
Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1694
  • Respect: +1767
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 07:14:50 pm »
0

@Adam: the one other thing mentioned in the chat that was cut off that hasn't been mentioned above is that you should have switched to Mining Villages over Fishing Villages sooner -- or gone for them right away. The $2 is important late.

Regarding game 2, I am definitely on the side of Plaza-Silver into one BoM and Library.
Logged

Teproc

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 765
  • Shuffle iT Username: Teproc
  • aka Le Teproc
  • Respect: +352
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 07:38:59 pm »
0

@Qvist :

Game 1 : Not much to say there, you got quite unlucky in a mirror.

Game 2 : I tend to underestimate Duke still, but I do think Wharf was better on this board. However, I shouldn't have even tried to contest Dukes and should have probably bought a Duchy over a Gold early in the game.

Game 3 : I figured Transmute would be pretty good in a HP stack. No clue if I just got lucky or if I was right, but it worked pretty much as intended.

Game 4 : Yeah, HoP was not a thing there, I was blinded by my love for the card.

Game 5 : I don't think I could have double Provinced that turn, but I would have gone Province/Duchy if I hadn't stupidly thought Merchant Guilds were gone. Dunno if I would have won from there, and anyway it's my own fault for not double checking ;)

Game 6 : Yeah, I had some bad luck there, but that's how it goes.
Logged
Mafia play advice: If you are not content with the way the game is going, always assume that it is your fault.

TheMirrorMan

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 187
  • Respect: +124
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 10:12:33 pm »
0

Quote
Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394560994292.txt

     
     
Code: [Select]
Transmute, Herbalist, Squire, Stonemason, Apothecary, Doctor, Caravan, Golem, Hunting Party, Library

This was the most interesting board for me. I have 5/2 and struggled hard between going for an Apothecary deck with the help of Stonemason or if I should buy and overpay for Doctor. I decide to go for the Apothecary route and open Squire/Potion - which maybe should have been Herbalist/Potion, but my opening buys didn't collide, so it didn't matter. My opponent opens Silver/Potion which I didn't like so much. He then picks up a Transmute with $3P over Apothecary, what!? He then uses his Transmute trashing the Estates for Golds and prefers 1 Hunting Party over Double Apothecary and over Double Hunting Party. He later stonemasons Gold into 2 Hunting Parties though. I have a lot of Apothecaries, but he has a lot of Hunting Parties and his deck works so much better while my deck just doesn't come together. He takes the initiative for greening, so I had to green prematurely, but I just weren't able to keep up. He later stopped again to build more what gave me the opportunity to catch up, but his deck was so much better, so this was a clear win for him. I'm interested in feedback on this game. Was my strategy inferior or did I just executed it badly? Should I have opened with Doctor? What would you have done?

Just having a quick glance at the board - I wonder if Doctor/Squire then transitioning into Squire/Library is something. This looks awfully fast.
Logged
Here comes the mirror man. Says he's a people fan.

yed

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 618
  • Shuffle iT Username: yed
  • Respect: +570
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 06:15:29 am »
0

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394558245310.txt
Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Pearl Diver, Shanty Town, Alchemist, Baron, Noble Brigand, City, Graverobber, Venture, King's CourtBut my deck was only capable of generating $22P and I needed $23 to win.
I think you would lose on turns with $23 (Province +3 duchies): 5 provinces vs 3 provinces and 4 duchies.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4029
  • Respect: +2561
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2014, 07:54:08 am »
+1

For that Qvist/Teproc apothecary game: That's exactly how transmute can be used with apothecary or hunting party. Qvist was asking what went wrong with his deck and I'm pretty sure it starts right away with the squires. They clogged up the apothecary drawing and prevented the flow just to get extra buys that were rarely used.
Logged

dudeabides

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Shuffle iT Username: dudeabides
  • Respect: +135
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2014, 08:08:01 am »
0

Dudeabides 3
17and3buys 0

Game 1   43-36   
Supply: Lookout, Ironmonger, Procession, Spice Merchant, Baker, Butcher, Cartographer, Harvest, Laboratory, Adventurer

I open Spice Merchant/Lookout to his Spice Merchant/silver.  He started greening early (Province on Turn 7), which scared me a bit given that the only +Buy is from Spice Merchant.  I think Butcher was the key to this board, as it let me get rid of my Lookout, Spice Merchant, and Procession once they had served their uses.

http://archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20140310/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1394495149953.txt


Game 2   41-21   
Supply: Oracle, Warehouse, Feodum, Plaza, Rats, Minion, Mountebank, Soothsayer, Stash, Possession

I go for Minion/Mountebank/Plaza to my opponent's Soothsayer/Plaza/Warehouse.  Minion is a strong card on its own, but with Plaza to rack up coin tokens and Mountebank for +$2 and Curse/Copper dishing, it cannot be ignored on this board.  I win the Curse split 4/6.

http://archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20140310/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1394496101561.txt

Game 3   48-36   
Supply: Chapel, Forager, Herald, Horse Traders, Moneylender, Trader, Worker's Village, Mystic, Pillage, Expand

I open Chapel/Trader to Chapel/Moneylender.  I draw Chapel and 4C on turn 3, while his Chapel and Moneylender collide on his turn 4. My Trader misses the reshuffle and collides with Chapel on turn 5.  I (perhaps prematurely) trash Chapel with Trader.  Silvers from Trader make the difference in this game. 

http://archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20140310/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1394496755403.txt

All in all it was a fun set of games.  Best of luck to 17and3buys in the remainder of the tournament.
Logged
jsh357: the dude doesn't need to explain himself

Monsieur X

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
  • Respect: +86
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2014, 10:31:01 am »
0

Monsieur X   3             moharimo     1

interesting games and very close, i think i won having more luck than him

game 1  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394627538693.txt   1-0
he has 5/2 with margrave  i open double silver but his margrave doesnt hurt me on turns 3-4.
After turn 4 i have 3 silvers and a margrave. turn 5 i have 7 for a forge.... ;) thats just perfect
Next he is always a bit late and i end with 3 piles with talisman

game 2  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394632706578.txt  1-1
What a frustrating game : so long, with so many time to have my first extra buy in BM, and at the end he just have 16 to take double province when i thougth "thats it!  i will have it next turn!"
But nothing to say, i made so many mistakes  (my opening  BM spice merchant,  taking so many time to have militia/masquerade, taking so many time to have journeymans... and my last turn buying a GM maybe forbid me to have enough to win this turn.... and maybe other mistakes)
Just being my oponent i would have rushed more on provinces when he bougth festival on BM. He was the only one to have extra-buys and has a good engine and lot of coins token. He gave me turns to dream.

game 3  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394633194281.txt  2-1
Wharf big money  with counterfeit, and hoard   
Before my turn 15  he is 11VP ahead and just 2 provinces remaining. And next dreams come true....
Sorry moharimo for that incredible end

game 4 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394633731620.txt  3-1
For me it was a very complexe choice here... both 4/3
the couple worker village/ fools gold tried to seduce me
ambassador but with nothing  to build something....
trader why not!
Im obsessed by this ambassador thinking  "im the first player, i'm the first player! thats so good!"
At the moment i choose ambassador/trader... i thougth "oh no! you're stupid guy! ambassador is so bad here, its a trader big money game"
Moharimo took lookout/trader which seems better and i was crushed!  But finally moharimo took an ambassador turn 3, and give me 2 silvers next. I didnt use mine.
a good mint for me turn 6, and a lucky necropolis/ trader overgrow estate /mint silver/ buy silver next turn


Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1743
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2014, 11:11:28 am »
0

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
  • Respect: +830
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2014, 11:20:20 am »
0

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.

I didn't play well. Maybe I shouldn't have been playing those 180 player poker SitnGOs at the same time...??
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1743
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2014, 11:27:16 am »
0

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.

I didn't play well. Maybe I shouldn't have been playing those 180 player poker SitnGOs at the same time...??

I, on the other hand, have no excuse.
Logged

yed

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 618
  • Shuffle iT Username: yed
  • Respect: +570
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2014, 11:51:30 am »
0

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.

I didn't play well. Maybe I shouldn't have been playing those 180 player poker SitnGOs at the same time...??
Did you at least won something from the SitnGOs?
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • They can't all be the best personal text ever
  • Respect: +1953
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2014, 12:01:40 pm »
+1

Long overdue posting of the logs from Tables and my games. I streamed the match and have been wrestling with youtube to get it up, I'm just going to give up and post the logs and some thoughts.

Game One

We mirror the engine and both run into the nombos of Armory/Loan and Armory/Wandering Minstrel. In retrospect, Altar is probably good enough trashing here that you can ignore loan in light of that. I'm ahead for awhile but he pulls out a great last turn and wins.

Game Two

Goons engine with Prizes to help you out. I severely overestimate the importance of the Prizes here and open Death Cart of all things to try and rush them. I assumed that the draw from Trusty Steed and Followers is essential for the engine; as that fact that I got both of them and still lost proves, probably not. Tables more sensibly focuses on Goons and crushes me.

Game Three

Basically Mercenary/BM, with caravan and tunnel to spice things up. I thought Tunnel would be a great defense against urchin and merc but he buys his golds the old fashioned way and gets way more points.

Good games, Tables, and thanks for the match!
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

twitch.tv/a_drowned_kernel

secret tunnel

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2014, 12:41:39 pm »
+1

I played a very even series of rounds with Smartie, ending in a tie 3-3 draw.

Game 1: To my mind, a not-very-interesting engine game with Nobles, Herald, and Vault. I fell behind early and needed better luck than I got with my Heralds. I manage a double-Province turn to make it close, but Smartie didn't stall on the last turn like I needed him too. He wins 39-34.

Game 2: Soothsayer and Chapel are the central cards here. Smartie opens Chapel/Feast, I open Chapel/Silver. A late Feast and Count work well for me to grab some extra Duchies in the end game to put it away. I grab some Silvers via Masterpiece midway through; I think they help me, but I'm not sure. I win 42-29.

Game 3: Jack and Hamlet. Smartie opens 5/2 with Hamlet/Trading Post, which I figure is a huge advantage for me, but I end up just pulling out a squeaker. I think I probably overestimate the value of Hamlet here; maybe a purer Jack+money strategy would have worked better? I'd be curious to know what's best here. I win 38-36.

Game 4: Familiar. I'm aiming to get 6vp Fairgrounds on this Shelters board. I like how things are working for me -- my early Alter helps a lot -- but Smartie's big advantage in Curses ends up just slightly too much. This could easily have gone either way at the end, but I lose 22-23.

Game 5: An incredibly boring Workshop/Gardens, which we both go for. I don't really see any other choices here. (Does anyone?) I lose 26-20, with 29 cards in my deck. I had a chance to Workshop the last Workshop for a tie; obviously I wish I'd taken it.

Game 6: This is the one I was least sure what to do with. Ambassador, but no villages or cantrip money; I also see Philosopher's Stone. I'm also eyeing some wackiness with Great Hall/Remake/Silk Road. No actual buys, but we have Haggler and HoP. I end up holding my breath and ignoring Ambassador, going for Stones, and taking a few extra green cards to try and get Silk Road at 3 or even 4. The plan works better than I expect it to, and I clear the Provinces before getting a chance to pump up the SRs. I'd be very interested to hear expert opinion on the ideal strategy for this board; I feel lucky that what was in effect a pure guess ended up working very well. This was the only game of the whole set that didn't feel extremely close and tense the whole way through. I win 43-25.

I think that if Smartie and I played ten more games, we'd probably be tied 8-8. Thanks for the match!
Logged

Smartie

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
  • Respect: +12
    • View Profile
Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2014, 01:06:18 pm »
+1

Thanks secret tunnel. It was really tense for the games (Perhaps except the last game which I really do not know what I was doing...)

Game 1: I think my 5-2 opening for vault gave me a slight lead to getting nobles, which I felt was important for the combo of drawing large amounts of cards. In the middle I clicked wrongly (+actions instead of +cards), which got me slightly panicked. Luckily vault was definitely quite strong in this game which earned my 1st win.

Game 2: I think I might have gone duchy too early considering you had the masterpiece. Probably I panicked to quickly seeing the vp tokens creeping on me! :P But the silvers really did help decently in the "duchy dance"

Game 3: Failed strategy I guess. But on retrospective, if I had gotten 2 JOAT, there might be a good chance of winning? I am not sure... But jack and hamlet is indeed quite a strong combo I must admit :)

Game 4: I lucked out this game. If he had the money to get the fairgrounds, I wouldnt be able to clinch that victory :)

Game 5: Boring strategy of gardens-workshop, but me starting 1st definitely had a slight advantage in this game.

Game 6: By the time I reached this game, my mind was a whirl.. Was confused of the strategy to try, but seems like philosopher stone is a winning strategy here. I knew my loss the moment he got the potion =P But quick thinking pawned my slow mind :)

Overall great games! Have learnt a lot from this gokodom despite my relatively poor results. All the best! May we meet again secret tunnel
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All
 

Page created in 0.204 seconds with 20 queries.