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Kirian

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GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« on: March 10, 2014, 09:50:55 am »
0

Post your logs and analysis here!
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Dunduks

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 04:57:17 pm »
0

Third time lucky.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394475422254.txt

Maybe the slowest coming engine ever - I didn't want treasure, but turn 6 Market square is without comments and I think after opponent embargoed Bridges I shouldn't buy Great hall. I think simple BM+Margrave should be better as such engine building.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394476361096.txt

Again deck where is no need for treasure but I didn't buy Loan even seeing as opponent buys it. And I buy silver on turn 4. I think I somewhere missed one correct Stonemason buy but it didn't matter.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394478185223.txt

Horn of Plenty isn't my cup of tea but I was lucky (and I thought little bit more about drawing) with my turn 16.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394479241929.txt

Maybe just Hunting party + Courtyard was best move but I wanted something fancy. Good luck. And turn 11 Duchy didn't help at all.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394479983765.txt

I think I shouldn't went for Duchies (turn 16) but I wasn't sure I can regularly buy Provinces while opponent buys Duchies and three piling and I also thought that I have some breathing space with Nobles points.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394481041915.txt

At turn 4 I thought I was too far behind so I tried desperate measures (and little provocation) with Rats. Opponent followed me to Rats and killed his economy.

So six games, much fun and some (lucky) nail biting.







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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 06:20:57 pm »
+2

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

This was a horrible series. I felt like we both play mostly bad. Hopefully for both we will improve for the rest of the tournament. I will post some additional comments later.

EDIT (twice): all games commented.

game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394481149815.txt
Poor House, Oracle, Woodcutter, Marauder, Taxman, Knights, Pillage, Royal Seal, Fairgrounds, King's Court
The presence of both Ruins and Knights makes Fairgrounds extra-strong. However, so much attacking and especially junking will make an engine extremely unfeasible, especially with KCs goodness but unreliability and the 3-piling menace that Ruins+Knights+Fairgrounds represent. Also, a slogger can start pounding on Fairgrounds early and an engine player cannot delay its greening to avoid the opponent getting 8 VP Fairgrounds. Getting lots of Knights is also not a nice way to get an engine rolling, especially since the best Knights for engines (non-terminal and trashing) end up being really close to the bottom. So, we both go for some sort of sloggy/BM Fairgrounds deck. I pound on Fairgrounds early anticipating a battle for the split, but his early Knighting proves to be better. However, he (I think incorrectly) gives up on the Knights early instead of going after all of them and gets Gold and Province, so I manage to catch up with Knights. We split the Fairgrounds 4/3 (my early one gets trashed by Knights, which I should have anticipated). I do not see a strong reason why I won. I think even with mistakes on both sides, I may have identified the strategy better, but otherwise, I have only shuffle luck to thank.1-0

game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130608/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1370702477264.txt
Pearl Diver, Forager, Great Hall, Caravan, JackOfAllTrades, Treasure Map, Apprentice, Graverobber, Mystic, Tribute
We both go Forager/Jack. He gets the lucky match and I get a bit unlucky draws, and same in the second shuffle so I find myself a lot behind. I get a second Forager to try to trash down and connect TMs to recover, but it never comes together so I start getting Apprentice and later Graverobber to try to gamble into lucky draws (probably not concentrating enough due to giving myself low odds) for a come back, but it never happens. Geronimoo's deck shows that it can take the heavy greening without a hinch (great Silver flooding, and probably Geronimoo is at its best with this kind of tactical play as well), so he gets it easily.1-1

game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394482840019.txt
Trade Route, Philosopher's Stone, Baron, Moneylender, Remodel, Golem, Horn of Plenty, Margrave, Treasury, Harem
Another horrible board. Golem is the only pseudovillage, and there is also not good trashing nor good payload (HoP is difficult). I open Moneylender and he opens Remodel, but ¿Surprisingly? he can get to $6 easier than me, while I am stuck at 5 for a loooong time. After that, the Golds snowball him into winning the game. I think I dropped the ball getting HoP after too many $5s (felt it would give me some Silvers and may help with Duchy dancing, and also it may get me some lucky extra Gold with Copper+Silver+Gold+Harem+Margrave+HoP), but it really never works out.1-2

game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394484109577.txt
Transmute, Native Village, Fishing Village, Wishing Well, Feodum, Marauder, Procession, Journeyman, Fairgrounds, Grand Market
Another ruins + Fairgrounds. He goes for the money slog, getting GMs. I go for some kind of hybrid, get Procession to clear out some ruins and get Journeyman into Grand Market going. It is hard, but it ends up coming together at the end for me. It is close, and I feel like I get luckier in the endgame (would not be really surprising if I lost, but I also think my deck was better than his. I was certainly not confident for quite a while, I feel I underrate my decks when I find myself building and the opponent is greening easily. I also felt a bit, for the second time, that Geronimoo did not plan for Fairgrounds properly, and that may have been the real difference.2-2

game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394485132819.txt
Native Village, Develop, Horse Traders, Noble Brigand, Thief, Bazaar, Inn, Soothsayer, Vault, Harem
Another awful game. This one I felt we both played randomly. I cannot even say why I won. I think skipping Soothsayer and getting HT to React and trash some Curses with Develop was correct on my part, because Soothsayer in this kind of awful BM deck is really slow in Cursing, and HT'd Soothsayer attack accelerates you a lot. Plus, HT and Vault overcome slow junking without much trouble. I won this one handily, although I have no idea why.3-2

game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394485925159.txt
Shanty Town, Familiar, Coppersmith, JackOfAllTrades, Procession, Spy, Counting House, Festival, Adventurer, Goons
We both go for Familiar, but have bad luck with it. He opens 5/2 but I am stuck with $2P, so the playfield evens out. Geronimoo goes into DoubleJack + Goons slog, I guess because he found himself behind in the Familiar race. I get a single Jack because I foresee no way an engine will come together without draw, and start pounding on Festivals on $5 and Goons on $6 to Goons-slog. I think I win due to getting a lot more Goons than him, but also, hi gets an unlucky misclick in the endgame trashing a Goons instead of playing it (damn Goko) which gives me the way to end by depleting the Curses in the final turn.4-2
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 11:10:40 am by soulnet »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 08:01:27 pm »
+2

BraveBear defeats scott_pilgrim, 3-1

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394490688071.txt

This is an obvious Storeroom-Tunnel board, with Warehouse to sweeten the combo even more.  Unfortunately, my deck decided that I will play Merchant Ship-BM, as I am unable to get almost any $3 or $4 hands (and only one $5 hand).  During the first seven turns, I draw Estate/Estate/Estate/Copper/Copper three times, and every time I hit $6 I feel like it's silly not to get Gold.  I'm actually not sure if I played this right.  Should I have gone for the combo, or adapted to my draws?  I think I'm fighting a losing battle either way.  He goes for Treasuries later which I don't really understand, but he definitely has it with the combo anyway.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394492234400.txt

I think this is literally the most painful game of Dominion I've ever played.  I get a $5/$2 opening which should be great on a Cultist board.  He opens double Ambassador.  I pick up an Ambassador, but he manages to thin quickly and hits me really hard with Estates.  Later on I figure my only shot at winning is to take advantage of the 295,218 Estates he's given me and I try to pile Estates, but once he gets a couple of Province hands I know I'm doomed.  I resign while swimming through a deck of 9 Estates, 9 Ruins, 9 Coppers, and 9 "good" cards.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394493281079.txt

There's a lot of power cards on this board: Mountebank, Counterfeit, Forager, Rabble, and Torturer, and we have Festival as a village.  I open Forager/Silver which may have been a mistake, as I miss $5 on my second shuffle, but he doesn't punish me for it, as he gets Counterfeit rather than Mountebank.  I get some Rabbles for draw, but they definitely should have been Torturers.  I was thinking that Mountebank would be handing out Curses anyway, and Rabbles would be important after we start greening, but we never really start greening because piles are low so the Rabbles are effectively Smithies for most of the game.  I pick up a couple Graverobbers later on hoping to turn my $5's into Provinces, which I do once at the very end.  I end the game on three piles with the billions of buys my Festivals and Foragers are giving me.

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394494726908.txt

We both go for the same general plan: use Chapel to thin, get Scrying Pool(s), and then Mystics, hoping to Province every turn.  With no +buy and no villages there's not much else to do, but the discard attacks make this faster than BM I think.  The key difference between our decks is that I go for Militia, while he skips it in favor of getting his draw going faster.  He beats me buy a turn; I probably made the wrong play breaking PPR at the end, since I think my deck had better longevity than his since I had more SP's.


Thanks again for the games, BraveBear!  Good luck in future rounds!
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BraveBear

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 08:37:20 pm »
+1

BraveBear defeats scott_pilgrim, 3-1

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394490688071.txt

This is an obvious Storeroom-Tunnel board, with Warehouse to sweeten the combo even more.  Unfortunately, my deck decided that I will play Merchant Ship-BM, as I am unable to get almost any $3 or $4 hands (and only one $5 hand).  During the first seven turns, I draw Estate/Estate/Estate/Copper/Copper three times, and every time I hit $6 I feel like it's silly not to get Gold.  I'm actually not sure if I played this right.  Should I have gone for the combo, or adapted to my draws?  I think I'm fighting a losing battle either way.  He goes for Treasuries later which I don't really understand, but he definitely has it with the combo anyway.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394492234400.txt

I think this is literally the most painful game of Dominion I've ever played.  I get a $5/$2 opening which should be great on a Cultist board.  He opens double Ambassador.  I pick up an Ambassador, but he manages to thin quickly and hits me really hard with Estates.  Later on I figure my only shot at winning is to take advantage of the 295,218 Estates he's given me and I try to pile Estates, but once he gets a couple of Province hands I know I'm doomed.  I resign while swimming through a deck of 9 Estates, 9 Ruins, 9 Coppers, and 9 "good" cards.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394493281079.txt

There's a lot of power cards on this board: Mountebank, Counterfeit, Forager, Rabble, and Torturer, and we have Festival as a village.  I open Forager/Silver which may have been a mistake, as I miss $5 on my second shuffle, but he doesn't punish me for it, as he gets Counterfeit rather than Mountebank.  I get some Rabbles for draw, but they definitely should have been Torturers.  I was thinking that Mountebank would be handing out Curses anyway, and Rabbles would be important after we start greening, but we never really start greening because piles are low so the Rabbles are effectively Smithies for most of the game.  I pick up a couple Graverobbers later on hoping to turn my $5's into Provinces, which I do once at the very end.  I end the game on three piles with the billions of buys my Festivals and Foragers are giving me.

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394494726908.txt

We both go for the same general plan: use Chapel to thin, get Scrying Pool(s), and then Mystics, hoping to Province every turn.  With no +buy and no villages there's not much else to do, but the discard attacks make this faster than BM I think.  The key difference between our decks is that I go for Militia, while he skips it in favor of getting his draw going faster.  He beats me buy a turn; I probably made the wrong play breaking PPR at the end, since I think my deck had better longevity than his since I had more SP's.


Thanks again for the games, BraveBear!  Good luck in future rounds!


Game 1
I get fortunate with 4/3.  I really think you should have gone haggler on this board, but I think it was an uphill climb with 5/2.  I liked my treasury buys.  I was hitting 6 and 7 a lot because of the 4 and 3 card hands that the warehouses and storerooms were leaving me. 

Game 2
I had hands of CCCEAmb on turns 3 and 4.

Game 3
I thought I needed counterfeit for the extra trashing but you are right MB would have been a whole lot better.  You curse me first and get your rabbles going good while I buy another MB which never lets met draw well and I fall behind.

Game 4
Chapel mystics with only one SP, and for some odd reason an urchin that I never trash.  This one comes down to the wire.

Thanks for the games scott_pilgrim!



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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 10:57:20 pm »
+2

florrat defeats markusin 3.5-1.5

Will update with videos once they finish uploading

Game 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394492634655.txt



This Colony game had a lot of cards that you'd want at the $4 and $5 price point in addition to Peddler. I was hoping that getting a second Workshop would make my deck stronger in the long run, but I think it's hampering of my ability to get Provinces shows that it was a mistake. My opponent ends up getting all the prizes and some Duchies too, but I still liked my chances for most of the game and it was pretty enjoyable in the end.

florrat   1 - markusin   0 

Game 2:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394493886103.txt



The first of what would end up being many games that included Tactician. I pounded the Minion pile hard, while my opponent gobbled up the Conspirators with Ironworks. I felt like the Conspirators were going to be weak here without lots of Minions due to the lack of trashing, so I made sure to get the Minions first before trying the fancy stuff with Tactician. My opponent was starting to make a Double Tactician deck work, but it kinda fizzled once the second Tactician didn't get drawn. At the end, my opponent had the choice to either play it safe and tie or play for the win with a drawing Minion.

florrat 1.5 - markusin 0.5

Game 3:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394495089873.txt



Normally, Apprentice has to wreck your deck a bit to give you powerful draw. That's not necessarily the case when Market Square is in the picture. Play Apprentice -> Trash Gold -> discard Market Squares -> gain Golds -> Draw the Golds and the Market Squares. I chose to take a Warehouse over an extra Market Square early, and ended up wishing I had more than 3 buys to use. I did have the early lead though, which gives you the edge when your deck has a bunch of Apprentices. Tactician was there too, but neither of us really cared.

florrat 1.5 - markusin 1.5

Game 4:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394496176300.txt

I'm not uploading the video for this one. It seems the sensitivity of my microphone is too high. My sister came over with her friend, our dog went crazy, and you can hear all the commotion at about the same volume as my own commentary. I was only trying to be a bit quieter.

I was prepared for the Sea Hag slog, with Tactician to help spike some good cards and with hopes that Beggar can give me Silver. My opponent goes for University, which confused me at first. It seems that, in a slog like this, getting lots of Islands can actually work out as a deck thinner. I mostly went straight for treasure and Tactician.

florrat 2.5 - markusin 1.5

Game 5:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394497164125.txt

Again no video here, for the same reasons as game 4. In fact, the conversation my sister was having with her friend was even more audible.

This was a Cultist board, but Hermit, Stonemason, and Monument spiced it up a bit. With neither of us having a 5/2 opening, this was definitely not one of those hopelessly one-sided Cultist matches. I was confident in my chances of winning after seeing the results of my first Madman go off, but somehow my opponent was getting a bunch of Provinces while I found myself with a bunch of terminal collisions. Looking at the log, my opponent had slightly better money density it seems.

florrat 3.5 - markusin 1.5

Thanks for the games florrat, and best of luck for the rest of the competition.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:20:23 pm by markusin »
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florrat

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 01:44:49 am »
+2

My comments on my game vs markusin (for logs see previous post). Thanks for uploading the videos. It is very informative to see the viewpoint of my opponent.

Game 1: Tournament game with everything except trashing. Because of this I skip Advisor. I think Advisor is a little overused. I really don't like it when there is no trashing. On average, at least one of the drawn cards will be "junk", especially with Followers junking. Okay, you might get a Copper with some other card, but at the HUGE cost of discarding a lot of good cards. This is less true for Envoy, because you're just discarding 1/5 cards instead of 1/3.
You were very unlucky not hitting 8. You reached 7 like 5 times before you hit 8? That hurts.
Responding to a comment that "Followers is not that good here because there is no trashing": Followers is helped by the lack of trashing! If there is strong trashing, you can trash curses, while I have to trash estates to keep my deck clean. So Followers here is +2VP +2 Cards, you discard down to 3 (and we both gain a junk card) which is incredibly strong.
(I missed the double Province opportunity tun 18)

Game 2: This was pretty much me going for Conspirator and you going for Minions, both with double tactician (me a little earlier than markusin). But yeah, it's hard to find your second tactician reliably without any trashing. In the turn I fuzzed (turn 14) you discarded my tactician, so I had the choice to trigger the reshuffle with a small chance of finding the 2nd tactician, or just play next turn with all my good cards reshuffled in the deck.
This was a nice game, very close and intense!

Game 3: Apprentice + Market Square is very strong. A warehouse was useful to line them up, but I think you didn't focus enough on those two key cards (opening Warehouse and buying Baker). You should have gained more of both of them. I'm not even sure about our Rogues, they could have been Apprentices, which also gain gold (and maybe faster than Rogue).
@Turn 5 "This is not the ideal hand": well, you've seen your Apprentice three times by turn 5, and lined up with your MS you bought on turn 3 twice already, that's very close to ideal :-) But I can't complain as well with my T5 2*gold gain.
And yeah, leaving just 3 Provinces in the supply was too risky, That was a mistake (on the other hand, if you got 3 Provinces that turn I was behind 3 Provinces anyway, which is pretty hard to make up for with Duchies).

Game 4: Sea Hag slog. I was lucky in the beginning to win the curse split. And yeah, University was pretty nice to gain a lot of islands (and you shouldn't have played Sea Hag when the Curses were out, but you probably figured that out for yourself).

Game 5: Cultist board, but with some decent trashing in the form of Hermit. My turn 5 Gold should probably have been a Cultist, but I was lucky enough to reach 7 next turn for Stonemason+2*Cultist. We basically did an exact mirror. Looking at the log, at almost every stage our decks were comparable. I guess I was just lucky to hit exactly 8 on turns 16-18.

Thanks for the games. They were very interesting!

PS: Have you tried the sidebar chat of the Salvager Extension? I recommend it!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 01:46:43 am by florrat »
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 01:57:05 am »
0

Round 3 vs. MJD

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1394504606982.txt

1-0
This game was a long slog involving Marauder.  I won it due to my Knight hitting a Duchy and then my opponent not realizing he could buy the last Ruin to win the game.  I should have lost.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1394505564751.txt

2-0
Cartographer/Conspirator/Market engine.  I think it worked pretty well for me.  I opened Mandarin to hit $5 multiple times early on.   Cartographer doesn't care too much about the extra Copper, so I figured I could go light on trashing.  You could say Count is better generally, but I'm not so sure here.  Well, I've been wrong before and will be again.  I got one double Province turn, which was pretty surprising to me.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1394506727045.txt

3-0
I ignore Potion and go for a more traditional engine using Altar while he takes the Potion.  Both paths seem OK, but I think the trashing from Altar is superior in the long run.  The results suggest this.  On 5/2, Catacombs seems perfectly logical to me since I want Altar so badly, but there is a case for other openings.  I misplay several turns, but I was ahead by quite a bit and it did not matter so much.  In the end, MJD's engine has no +gain or buy, so I'm able to stay ahead of it pretty much indefinitely.

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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 02:46:53 am »
0

Thanks for the comments florrat. Yeah, I think I learned a lesson after each game.

I know about the sidebar chat, and I actually prefer the goko chat. The problem with the sidebar chat is that I'll rarely notice it while I'm focused on the game. If you say something, I want to be notified. The sidebar chat doesn't provide this (and neither does the chat of Isotropic Innovation).

Game 3 I agree that I didn't focus on the key cards enough, which in this case was just Market Square and Apprentice. Given the presence of Market Square, I don't think Rogue was necessary or helpful.

Edit: What I mentioned about followers is more true when one player has a reliable engine going and the player with Followers doesn't. Of course, I didn't have a reliable engine by any means...due to the Followers for one thing.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:48:57 am by markusin »
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gamesou

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 05:21:18 pm »
0

Gamesou - SquisherX [Duane Menezes] 3.5 - 0.5

Game 1 : draw 33-33
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394566563789.txt

I probably bought too many terminals in the early game and get a deck much worse than his. SquisherX has an awful misclick on turn 17 where he draws his deck but forgets to play his $20 money !!!!! Despite of this he is still ahead, but choices to draw while the endgame was slightly favorable to him in my opinion.

Game 2 : gamesou 58-55
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394568314853.txt

We go for Taxman into Border Village/Margrave/Cartographer on a Colony board. I added Ghost Ship although they are kind of nullified by Cartographers. Again he has a much better deck but triggers a reshuffle on turn 18 which leads to several turns with bad hands, resulting in an unexpected and lucky win for me.

Game 3 : gamesou 30-27
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394568982702.txt

We both go for Golem/Mountebank for heavy junking. With 5/2 I open Mountebank/- (no Pearl Diver please), saving the Baker coin with the idea to secure $4P (alas I got $1P!). The game is quite even. With Remodel & Caravan on the board, I like the flexibility of Bands of Misfits which eventually remodel province into province for the win.

Game 4 : gamesou 30-29
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394570602868.txt

Probably the most interesting board. I really would like to see top players play this board ! Good trashing with Steward, Quarry for money and a possibility to set up a pseudo-pin with Village/Graverobber/Pillage/Council Room. I realized this a bit too late, and Torturer somehow complicates the situation. Even once Curses were out the discarding option from Torturer was a way to protect from Pillage ! My engine is not very functional but having the opponent missing a few key turns is enough to come back. Again a tricky endgame where Graverobber is useful.

Thanks to SquisherX for these games ! All of them where very close !
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:23:21 pm by gamesou »
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 05:59:50 pm »
0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394568485382.txt
beggar, forager, loan, lookout, death cart, remake, treasure map, band of misfits, haggler, king's court

There's king's court with haggler or death cart, forager for buy, and good trashing with remake and forager.  But, there's no draw at all. I go for the KC plan hoping to trash down, get a few KCs, hagglers, and then band of misfits.  KC with haggler is probably a province, KC with misfits as death cart, and a forager is double province.  Opponent goes for a money based strategy, with no KCs.  I get lucky on my last turn, down by 7, when I'm able to  use misfits to remake KC into last province and remake into duchy.  Not sure which strategy was better here, but I'm thinking his was.  My draws overall were pretty good and KC always had a target.  Other option here might have been remake/forager open into treasure maps.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394570382089.txt
stonemason, apothecary, sage, coppersmith, cutpurse, herald, remake, scout, taxman, rogue

We both go for similar strategies- apothecaries, then heralds, with remakes, sages, and rogues as support.  Apothecaries and heralds are great together.  I don't think either of us used stonemason very well. I should have been going for 4 and potion early for double apothecary instead of trying to set up my next turn.  I thought I could end it on turn 13 when it was tied with 2 apothecaries and 2 sages left (no heralds left).  Plan was to stonemason cutpurse into last 2 sages, then remake a 4 cost into a duchy and buy last 2 apothecaries with stonemason.  Only problem was I didn't have a 4 cost left to remake.  I probably misplayed this turn and there was a win.  He's able to even up points on the next turn.  Then it just comes down to who has a big turn first and is able to end it on piles.  Ends up being me when I remake 2 scouts into the last 2 duchies.  Could have gone either way.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394571331473.txt
vineyard, hamlet, pearl diver, monument, scavenger, throne room, explorer, festival, mandarin, expand

Vineyard rush has to be the best strategy here.  We both open scavenger silver and go for it.  My scavenger draws were pretty amazing.  I play my only scavenger on turns 3, 4, 5, and 6.  Scavenger plays meant I was able to pick up more festivals, so I'm able to buy more hamlets and pearl divers later.  We split vineyard's 4-4 but I have slightly more actions, so win 27-24.


I was somewhat lucky in all 3 of these games.  It shouldn't have been a 3-0 match.  Thanks for games Yed.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 06:30:34 pm »
0

pst – mail-mi 3–0

Game 1:
Feodum, Jack of all Trades, Mining Village, Monument, Procession, Knights, Royal Seal, Soothsayer, Stash, Harem.

We both open Silver/Jack and get a lot of our points from Feodum. Both buy Soothsayers with our first fives, and then also some Knights.

Game 2:
Colony game with Apothecary, Doctor, Baron, Militia, Smithy, Apprentice, Embassy, Outpost, Treasury, Venture

We both open Militia/Silver. I buy Apprentice with my first five, and then overpays for a Doctor with the next one. Because of bad shuffle luck mail-mi doesn't get his first five until turn 7, also buying an Apprentice.

I thought I was going to use several high-value Ventures, but I actually only bought one, because I could so often buy Platina and then Colonies after doctoring most of my Coppers.

Game 3:
Transmute, Haven (bane), Lighthouse, Cutpurse, Fortress, Marauder, Pirate Ship, Procession, Young Witch, Saboteur, Trading Post

I open Lighthouse/Young Witch and mail-mi opens Lighthouse/Marauder and we both get Trading Post with our first fives. Even though there are good defences we attack a lot. I even got a couple of Saboteurs (because of a lack of interesting fives) and managed to get through the defences several times with them.

Thanks for the games!
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 07:16:08 pm »
+1

hdu88 vs PitrPicko

Game 1
Pitr gets the following sequence of turns:
Turn 1: Buy Doctor, trash two Estates
Turn 2: Redraw Doctor, trash three Coppers, buy Swindler
Turn 3: Swindle a Copper, buy Goons

0-1

Game 2
Now it's my turn to be a lucksack. After Pitr gets an early lead on the Possessions, I end up getting all of my good hands whenever I'm not possessed. Some interesting notes about this game:
-My second Potion was probably incorrect. Not sure what to buy with $4 though.
-Ill-Gotten Gains can only give $1 on a Possession turn. I still wanted the extra Coppers for Apothecary, but I'm not sure if that's correct.
-Buying Ill-Gotten Gains on a Possession turn gives you the Curse as well, as Pitr found out.
-There was one turn where Pitr could have set up my turn so that I didn't have a Possession in hand, but he chose to let me have it instead. After some deliberation, I decided to not play the Possession. He ended up having $3 and Possession, so that was probably incorrect on my part. I end up getting rewarded for it anyway.

1-1

Game 3
Rebuild board with Militia and Wandering Minstrel. Wandering Minstrel lets you cycle super quickly, but makes it harder to hit $5. I think I got one too many and ended up paying for it.

1-2

Game 4
Cultist and Goons. Salvager is slow trashing, Caravan is slow draw, and Bandit Camp is a village that junks your engine, but this is a Goons board so those should be good enough. Pitr goes for money and loses.

2-2

Game 5
Big Money with Moneylender and Warehouse. I buy Apprentice on Turn 6 because it's good in the endgame, but in retrospect I think Salvager is better because it's the only source of +buy. Apprentice gives more explosive turns than Salvager, but there's no point in having $13 or $16 if you only have 1 buy. My final hand was Apprentice Gold Gold Copper Copper which let me buy the last Province to tie the game, but Salvager Gold Gold Copper Copper would let me win by 1.

2.5-2.5

Game 6
Finally, a proper Goons engine. Pitr has trouble connecting his pieces together. Combined with my first-turn advantage with Marauder this gives me an easy win.

3.5-2.5
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 10:10:36 pm »
+1

Edit 1: Link to the Twitch stream -- I might not get to cutting the individual games for a bit. I've added comments on the games too.

Logs for my match against AI. I'll write stuff about it and edit this post but it might be a bit. I'm really frustrated about this match.

1. AH first
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1394587336723.txt

I'm notoriously bad at games like this, I just can't build Village/Draw engines. I've even started a topic about it but the discussion didn't really go in this direction, which is really where my weakness lies. AI was clearly able to put this engine together and he did some different things than I did, but I just can't understand what I could have done better here. Ironworks is so good and I feel like my opening is supposed to be better, is that why I was so far behind? I have a really hard time accepting the idea that SM+two $4 villages is a better way to get villages than IW, especially because SM is the only trashing.

People are going to give me crap for allowing the SM 3-pile ending. I'm aware that it was a dangerous play and if he had another big turn and I didn't those components that I still desperately needed that I was likely to lose anyways. I assert that the game was already over by that point and focusing on that is not going to improve this weakness in my game. How did I get in such a bad position? Why am I not able to build these types of engines effectively? This game is very frustrating for me because I know I'm not doing it well, but I can't look back on it and point to decisions that I made and know that was my mistake.


2. AI first
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1394588357778.txt

This game. You can hear my commentary throughout the game, I really should have won this game, I'm quite convinced of it. Is there anything I could have done better here? I really really really don't think so. I mean given the way my draws went, clearly I would have been better off if my opening Taxman was a Silver, but it's basically going to take simulation data to convince me that opening double Silver into Catacombs/BM is better than opening Taxman/Silver into Catacombs/BM. Granted, I was assuming at that point he wasn't going to build this engine, so the Taxman attack would be slightly more effective. Maybe opening Silver/Silver into BoM-as-Taxman/Catacombs/BM is better? I'm still not quite convinced of it.

I always say that you make your own shuffle luck. The point of that is exactly for games like this because I feel like I played a better strategy and still lost, but I just need to take a hard look at my play and find what I could have done better instead. I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

By the end of this game, I was extremely frustrated; before seeing the third kingdom I could have told you I would lose that game. I was really hoping to put up a good fight this match, I've been playing really well recently and it's always been a dream of mine to be able to break into the level where I'm not still losing 90% or more of my games against people like AI and I wasn't getting there.


3. AI first
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1394589371637.txt

Rebuild mirror from second seat against the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild. My chances of victory here are 0%. With two Duchies left I buy an Estate that I shouldn't have, and then I fail to realize that AI still has a starting Estate left in his deck, so I know precisely why I lost this game, and I must say that AI actually walked me through this stuff after the match via PM. After sleeping, I'm really glad this game happened because how many times do you get the chance to play a Rebuild mirror with the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild, get crushed, and have him tell you exactly how? These kinds of opportunities are exactly why I play in these tournaments so I'm really grateful for that. I just have to try and separate this experience from the other two games in this match, because I feel entirely different about them.

Now in the chat people were discussing the Minion engine on this board with lots of good support. They said that the engine should win almost unanimously and we talked about it after the match for a bit. Here's the thing: I don't think the engine is strong enough against Rebuild. They say that Minion counters Rebuild, like hard counters and I have a lot of trouble seeing how a Minion attack can shut down Rebuild enough to win this game. I'm actually very interested in playing this kingdom again, testing out the engine vs. Rebuild/Chancellor/CSM.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:25:20 am by AdamH »
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 11:39:59 am »
0

I've played two good Japenese players so far in three matches. This one was against nnn.

Game 1 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394633456607.txt
I don't like my 5-2 opening and come up with this entirely false plan of filling the decks with treasure and using some urchins to prevent my opponent from making a governor draw-mercenary discard engine. Either I still don't understand this game and/or I'm lucky.
Game 2 - no log but a double tactician plaza/poor house game where my opponent plays fine and I buy a gold instead of a tactician by clicking badly, so no complaints from me here
Game 3 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394635646959.txt
Dodgy black market kingdom where I'm still half asleep and only realize that my opponent has a nice king's-court rebuild thing once it has almost won the game.
Game 4 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394636451003.txt
Again I don't like my 5/2 start and I never seem to get started but my opponent played it fine for a big herald engine.
Game 5 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394636990183.txt
This is a big combo kingdom where I feel behind when I don't get the 5/2 this time but I'm ahead once my opponent's chapel is lost.  There's a nice king's court-feast in the middle that lets me monopolize the highways and then I only have to worry about a crazy 3 pile finish for my opponent (who actually has too many silvers to be a threat).
Game 6- again no log but I squeak a 2 point win with farmland+gold on the last turn. With a series of 7 coin hands I ended up playing moat+gold, of all things, against an opponent who went through the upgrades. Who says treasure decks are dead?
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EgorK

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 12:33:54 pm »
+1

EgorK - Burning Scull 3-3

EgorK - Burning Scull 24:32 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394636349911.txt

BM+Steward, my opponent correctly chooses Council Room for support while I opt for treasuries

Burning Scull - EgorK 55:41 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394636863323.txt

Double Jack. We both took rats detour, which probably was not corect

Burning Scull - EgorK 24:24 (EgorK wins by number of turns) http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394637426860.txt

My opponent won baker split, but probably should start buying provinces one turn earlier - that gold was not really needed

EgorK - Burning Scull 12:6 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394638334562.txt

Crazy game with knights, minions, young witch and fairgrounds

EgorK - Burning Scull 60:48 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394639998377.txt

We both opt for engine with Bazaar, Storeroom, watchtower and peddlers. On my penultimate turn I made mistake of leaving 3 colonies. My opponent counterfeited platinum and ended up with 32 coins

Burning Scull - EgorK 44:36 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394640802223.txt

Hunting grounds BM with trimmed decks. I should've buy penultimate province with the lead, but was afraid of him graverobbing his hunting grounds

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hsiale

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 01:00:40 pm »
+2

Game 2 - no log but a double tactician plaza/poor house game
Game 6- again no log but I squeak a 2 point win with farmland+gold on the last turn
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394634351119.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394637459897.txt
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 02:06:42 pm »
+2

Now in the chat people were discussing the Minion engine on this board with lots of good support. They said that the engine should win almost unanimously and we talked about it after the match for a bit. Here's the thing: I don't think the engine is strong enough against Rebuild. They say that Minion counters Rebuild, like hard counters and I have a lot of trouble seeing how a Minion attack can shut down Rebuild enough to win this game. I'm actually very interested in playing this kingdom again, testing out the engine vs. Rebuild/Chancellor/CSM.

I'm not sure what conditions must be satisfied for something to be a hard counter so I prefer not to use such terminology, but Minion alone definitely makes Rebuild alot weaker: past the early game you'll be playing 4-card hands every turn, making it alot harder to hit 5, and these 4- instead of 5-card turns also ensure that you'll see your Rebuilds 20% less often, which by itself (irrespective of the decreased chance of hitting 5) is enough to prolong the game by an average of 3-4 turns or so.

Now I don't think that Minion alone would necessarily beat Rebuild (I'm confident it does not), but there's not just an ordinary Minion stack here but in fact a really powerful engine with such awesome supplements as Junk Dealer, Fishing Village and Candlestick Maker.

I actually told the same thing to the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild. His response:

Good point regarding the Minion engine.  Somehow I saw all of those cards individually, considered the Minion engine, and failed to realize how strong it is.  It's pretty obvious once you just name those four cards together.  What's extra funny is that I remember giving you pretty much the same advice a year ago after you'd sent me a game you'd played with PitrPicko.  Though in that case I think it was FV, Lib, and something else for +buy. :D

If you're still not convinced I'm happy to play the game with you later tonight. I'm away for the next 4-5 hours or so but should be free after that.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:18 pm »
+1



2. AI first


This game. You can hear my commentary throughout the game, I really should have won this game, I'm quite convinced of it. Is there anything I could have done better here? I really really really don't think so. I mean given the way my draws went, clearly I would have been better off if my opening Taxman was a Silver, but it's basically going to take simulation data to convince me that opening double Silver into Catacombs/BM is better than opening Taxman/Silver into Catacombs/BM. Granted, I was assuming at that point he wasn't going to build this engine, so the Taxman attack would be slightly more effective. Maybe opening Silver/Silver into BoM-as-Taxman/Catacombs/BM is better? I'm still not quite convinced of it.

I always say that you make your own shuffle luck. The point of that is exactly for games like this because I feel like I played a better strategy and still lost, but I just need to take a hard look at my play and find what I could have done better instead. I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

By the end of this game, I was extremely frustrated; before seeing the third kingdom I could have told you I would lose that game. I was really hoping to put up a good fight this match, I've been playing really well recently and it's always been a dream of mine to be able to break into the level where I'm not still losing 90% or more of my games against people like AI and I wasn't getting there.

This basically comes down to the question: Can Engines that can only gain a single Province every turn win against a solid BM stragety? And the answer is yes, sometimes they can. A long time ago most likely every dominion fan in this forum read the very entertaining and educating article about the Base-Set Kingdom "The first game" and there was an easy simulation comparing a village-smithy only engine to straight Smithy BM. Obviously it loses to it most of the time but the average time to get to 4 Provinces was not that much longer if i remember correctly between 1 and 2 turns. In Other words if the village smithy player gets quite lucky he will win.
If we look at this board now the village-draw engine is a lot stronger than the one in the base set. A single village doesnt help a BM deck but a single plaza does comparable to for example haven. And Catacombs is much better for a BM-like deck than a Smithy.
Yes, costing 5 instead of 4 is a big difference in most cases, but as BM key costs are 3 and 6 so it's not that big of a deal. And the cointoken makes this a LOT better than smithy-village-money.
As long as you buy gold on 6 and silver on 3 it should still stay a decent BM strategy and you have the coin tokens to smooth out your buys.
So i dont think there will be a huge advantage for any of the two strats over the other here.
Actually my personal opinion is that a BM with plazas on 4 and somtimes on 5 and two or three Librarys might even be a little better than both of those but maybe that's just personal preference.

Looking at game 3 i have to agree 100% with SCSN and i wanted to bring up exactly those points aswell (even though i think just the 20% less often rebuild in the later game will only prolong the game by about 2 turns instead of 3-4) before i realized someone posted exactly that while i was writing on this post :)
When i watched that game i was sure the minion engine with such good support would beat rebuild straight away.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:19:49 pm by MarkowKette »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:36 pm »
+1

If you're still not convinced I'm happy to play the game with you later tonight. I'm away for the next 4-5 hours or so but should be free after that.

There's a chance I'll have time later tonight. I'll PM you or something and/or stream it if that's the case, but this week sort of exploded on me so that may not happen.

Also, for science we should both play the engine side and both play the rebuild side, because when you win playing both sides we've only shown that you're a better player than me, which we already know.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 02:19:08 pm »
0

This basically comes down to the question: Can Engines that can only gain a single Province every turn win against a solid BM stragety? And the answer is yes, sometimes they can. A long time ago most likely every dominion fan in this forum read the very entertaining and educating article about the Base-Set Kingdom "The first game" and there was an easy simulation comparing a village-smithy only engine to straight Smithy BM. Obviously it loses to it most of the time but the average time to get to 4 Provinces was not that much longer if i remember correctly between 1 and 2 turns. In Other words if the village smithy player gets quite lucky he will win.

True, but the engine chokes much harder on the green, yes? So with this in mind I went for Duchies a little aggressively, forcing the game longer, which is supposed to increase my chances. Is this wrong?

If we look at this board now the village-draw engine is a lot stronger than the one in the base set.

Well there I just disagree with you. How is it stronger? The components are more expensive and for what benefit? (this is a rhetorical question, I'm aware of the benefits, I just don't think they're worth it.) I'd say it's a close call at best, certainly not "a lot stronger." Am I just wrong here?

A single village doesnt help a BM deck but a single plaza does comparable to for example haven. And Catacombs is much better for a BM-like deck than a Smithy.
Yes, costing 5 instead of 4 is a big difference in most cases, but as BM key costs are 3 and 6 so it's not that big of a deal. And the cointoken makes this a LOT better than smithy-village-money.
As long as you buy gold on 6 and silver on 3 it should still stay a decent BM strategy and you have the coin tokens to smooth out your buys.
So i dont think there will be a huge advantage for any of the two strats over the other here.
Actually my personal opinion is that a BM with plazas on 4 and somtimes on 5 and two or three Librarys might even be a little better than both of those but maybe that's just personal preference.

Hmm, there's certainly something to be said for adding a Plaza in on $4, especially given how my second shuffle went. Then Library becomes better compared to Catacombs, but given that I wanted to play Taxman, thinking he would be going for money too, maybe that changes things? I wonder if that's stronger than what I did. This is the kind of thing that will help me sleep better at night, knowing I can actually get something out of this loss.
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Burning Skull

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 02:39:06 pm »
0

I also have some notes concerning my game with EgorK.

In the first game, yes, like he said, Treasuries was a no go indeed.
I actually don't think you need a Steward here with 5/2.

Can't say Rats in the second game was something absolutely pointless, maybe it helped a bit, but not sure about them being significantly better than just another silver.

In the third game that second Gold of me was definitely a huge mistake. I should have known that both of as are able to buy one province per turn since then, and now I think it should have even been a Duchy. Like some extrapolation of PPR.

In the fourth game I got a bit frustrated from the very beginning from the variety of options and totally misplayed it.

In the fifth game we both did pretty much the same, he just did it a bit more better :)

Can't say much about the last game. It did not had any hard decisions for me, and I think these late game Graverobbers, though hardly did anything useful for me, were definitely a good move in theory.

It was a pretty close match and I really enjoyed playing all the games (except the fourth one maybe :) ). Good luck with the rest of the games, Egor!

P.S. It is funny we played against each other in this Tournament since we live in one City and probably are the only two players from Russia. Maybe we should practice some real life Dominion on similar occasions :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:45:08 pm by Burning Scull »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 03:06:56 pm »
+2

I always say that you make your own shuffle luck. The point of that is exactly for games like this because I feel like I played a better strategy and still lost, but I just need to take a hard look at my play and find what I could have done better instead.

"You make you own shuffle luck" is a fine philosophy if the point is to make you focus on reducing your own mistakes and improving your play. But it's not enough to just think about your mistakes in a given approach/strategy, what you're really interested in is the strength compared to other things. Optimizing stuff in a vacuum is pointless. But to evaluate and compare strategies after a game you have to think about who got luckier as well. Otherwise you get misinformation.

If all you get from a game is strategy X beat strategy Y, you've taken a too coarse-grained view. You should try to incorporate more information: this player went first, plus these opening splits, plus these opening buys, plus these first reshuffles, etc. etc. You can't get every detail, but you should strive for more, whatever more happens to be for you.

Quote
I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

I don't have any comments about this game specifically, but there's a really good reason to blame some wins/losses on luck even if you "didn't get any better for it." The really good reason is to not get any worse! If you lose a game due to horrific shuffles, but convince yourself you made some serious mistake because "you make your own shuffle luck", you will get worse at Dominion because suddenly things which are not mistakes are identified as mistakes. It's like you're gaslighting yourself.
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 03:13:10 pm »
0

Quote
I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

I actually quite like coming to the conclusion that I was unlucky. Worrying about unlucky games does me no good at all provided that I didn't abandon sensible play in adversity (as I have done in the past, maybe even a few hours ago). Appraise the game, see where it was won and lost, then move on.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 03:24:13 pm »
0

Yeah I get that, WW and I had a discussion on a stream once (and I'm sure it bored the crap out of the chat since I wasn't playing for like 10 minutes and I was fanboying pretty hard) about this topic.

I understand that it's not true that the better strategy wins every game. Sometimes 7-2 offsuit beats Pocket Aces, and I know that doesn't mean I should play 7-2 offsuit. (Disclaimer: I don't think I was playing Pocket Aces and AI was playing 7-2 off, it's probably closer to me playing Pocket Queens and him playing K-Q or something, but I really don't know that much about Poker)

But where is the line? When is it OK for me to say that I had a better strategy than my opponent and only lost because of luck? I feel like such a D-bag saying that, and it implies that I played perfectly. I at least need to know that I played perfectly before I can say something like that or else I feel like I can't become a better player for it, and 99.9999% of the time that just isn't possible.

Just don't think that I'm saying the better strategy wins all the time. I'm not, it just sounds like I am because it really helps keep ego in check and keep me focused on getting better, not making excuses for my losses.

Every little decision I make I should know if it was justified. Was it right for me to go harder for Duchies to make the game go longer? Should I have opened Taxman or waited for BoM-as-Taxman? What about Plaza/Library, is that better?
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 03:55:57 pm »
+1

Responses without quotes:

Game 1:

I'm notoriously bad at games like this, I just can't build Village/Draw engines.

Don't sell yourself short.  We followed the same strategy and modest amounts of shuffle luck have huge long-term impact on boards like this.  Your only clear mistake was leaving me such a sure-fire 3-pile win.

The differences between our implementations were:
  • My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.
  • I focused less on Baker and more on villages and CR.  My reasoning here was that this isn't a setup where storing coin tokens is key, so Baker is more like a Peddler, while the payoff to CR's giant hands is large because of SM.
Game 2:

This game. You can hear my commentary throughout the game, I really should have won this game, I'm quite convinced of it. Is there anything I could have done better here? I really really really don't think so.

This confidence seems unwarranted.  It's clear that my plan was bad, but you're either overestimating your own plan or neglecting the other options on this board.

Try some practice games (or set up a sim) with Silver/Silver into Catacombs-BM vs your Taxman/Silver into 1 Catacombs + money (or more Catacombs, if that was your original plan).  Also try the plan that SCSN suggested to me: Plaza/Silver open into Library-Plaza with Misfits serving as one or more Plazas and acting as a Taxman when you draw it without a Library.  Neither he nor I is overwhelmingly convinced that this beats Catacombs-BM, but it looks quite strong.  I expect Taxman/Silver to take third place, but it's not a question that can be resolved with theoretical discussion. 

Game 3:

Rebuild mirror from second seat against the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild. My chances of victory here are 0%.

I lose a lot of Rebuild games.  That's one of the defining attributes of Rebuild. :D

I also didn't play this one terribly well.  SCSN already pointed out the strength of the Minion engine, and I entirely agree that it's the stronger choice.  But even ignoring Minion, my Rebuild play wasn't all that good, particularly during the Duchy race.

For those who might otherwise be tempted to "learn" from my Rebuild play here, my early CMs were a poor choice.  The "virtue" of an early CM over an early Silver is: a) you can save a token early when the rest of your hand totals $2, $3, or $5; b) you'll have +buys later for an Estate blitz strategy.  But $5+CM hands are very unlikely if you're buying CM over Silver, and a $3+CM hand is obviously inferior to $3+S.  AdamH caught a couple extra early Rebuilds, but I still would have split Duchies 4-4 without difficulty if my CMs had been Silver.  As it was, I very nearly lost the split as first player.

The key strategic moment was AdamH's choice on T8 to rush Estates along with me.  Since he had 4 Duchies/0 Estates to my 4 Duchies/+1 Estate, he would have been better served by keeping his deck Estate-free until the very end.  If I'm blitzing Estates, I can definitely expect a Rebuild to miss a Duchy once or twice, while Adam's will hit every time.  He'll probably win by just out-Rebuilding me, but by saving coin-tokens and adding (FV/Chancellor/Minion)s, he has a further chance to buy a Province for the win even if I'm lucky enough to consistently hit my Duchies while piling up Estates.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 04:02:25 pm »
+1

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 04:05:54 pm »
0

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 04:08:13 pm »
0

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P
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lespeutere

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 04:14:08 pm »
+1

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

I think your premise is wrong. At ~5:00 you state, that you'd like to get a zillion villages before you get CR. That's not a good idea. You typically want to get the drawer first before you get your first village. Especially if you have a chance of hitting 7 or 8$ with 2 buys via CR.
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 04:22:48 pm »
+1

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

Until T8 all the differences are minor.  Compare the decks at the end of T7.

T8 was big for me because I caught double-Village/CR.  Incidentally, this is the point in the game at which CR begins to dominate Baker.  The decks are dense enough that you're very likely to draw Village-CR combos.  Clearly that turn wouldn't have been nearly as strong if I had had Bakers instead of CRs.

But it's hard to take any result too seriously on such a knife-edged board.  Small differences blow up quickly when it's so easy to build.  Large differences in outcome don't imply large errors or even large differences in luck.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 04:35:14 pm »
0

My IW/Silver opening vs your Silver/Silver: I assume your goal was to hit $6 or $7 on the first shuffle and gain two actions through Stonemason.  But either of those draws (CCSSE or CCCSS) is improved by replacing a Silver with an IW.  For example, I'd much rather gain 1 FV and buy 1 CR than buy 1 SM and gain any two of CR/Baker.

In this game, you opened Council Room/Silver and I opened Ironworks/Silver, saving the coin token.

Er... right.  Well, see?  Your play was even better than you thought. ;)

Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

I think your premise is wrong. At ~5:00 you state, that you'd like to get a zillion villages before you get CR. That's not a good idea. You typically want to get the drawer first before you get your first village. Especially if you have a chance of hitting 7 or 8$ with 2 buys via CR.

This is a good point. That statement just isn't true. Perhaps I was too timid in building this engine because I was afraid of drawing things dead, so I always had a CR less than I should have.


Then how was I so behind? You were destroying me, I really don't feel like number of Council Rooms in Deck could have been that big of a factor, and I'm not blaming this one on luck; it's already a hard enough sell to blame Game 2 on luck :P

Until T8 all the differences are minor.  Compare the decks at the end of T7.

T8 was big for me because I caught double-Village/CR.  Incidentally, this is the point in the game at which CR begins to dominate Baker.  The decks are dense enough that you're very likely to draw Village-CR combos.  Clearly that turn wouldn't have been nearly as strong if I had had Bakers instead of CRs.

But it's hard to take any result too seriously on such a knife-edged board.  Small differences blow up quickly when it's so easy to build.  Large differences in outcome don't imply large errors or even large differences in luck.

I understand. Maybe you're right, but I need to develop a good feel for this kind of deck and what to do with it. Maybe I just need to do some reps with kingdoms like this or something...
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M0G3L

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 04:51:40 pm »
0

Game 1 AHoppy starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394653966171.txt
I think my mistake was that i went for Mercenary
Counterfeit is just good enough Trashing.
Also the Cutpurse was wrong because there is no Copper in a Counterfeitdeck.

Game 2 M0G3L starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394654622877.txt
Cultist Game not really interesting

Game 3 M0G3L starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394655497246.txt
I played Gardens with Woodcutter and Crossroads Support, Crossroads never draw me many Cards because of the Curses from SeaHag. I lost the Cursesplit badly but the curses helped me with my Gardens so i could end the game with buying the last two Curses.

Game 4 AHoppy starts
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516da91be4b082c74d7c4d43.1394655981763.txt
Realy interesting Game with Gardens and Silk Road and Ironworks as support, AHoppy went for Silk Road and i went for Gardens, at the end of the Game both Cards was worth the same but i got 1 of his Silk Roads and all Gardens, so I think i won the game because i got 6 Ironworks.

Sorry for the short text, but my English is way to bad to write a complete analysis
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lespeutere

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 06:44:32 pm »
0

lespeutere vs Max7272sp 3-0

1-0
IGG with Oracle support for me. It didn't work out so well, I managed to discard a Tunnel once which was really helpful once for getting a gold as 10th card, second for boosting my economy. He tries to go for IGG via Feast which works surprisingly well, then wins the Tunnel split 6:2, but I get two 4 VP Fairgrounds. He only manages a tie on his turn when he started: 16-16.

2-0
Really fun engine board. I guess I should've added a Market, but the game was over so fast and I preferred the draw of Catacombs to +buy with pseudo +buy of Butcher and Forge available when applied to Catacombs. Alas, 6 provinces in 6 turns is quite decent: 63-11.

3-0
Hey you BM lovers, there you go. No villages, premium draw (Smithy and Wharf), Bank, Counterfeit. With 4/3, he goes for 1 Smithy and quite some Banks with 1 Counterfeit, with 5/2 1 pick up 4 Wharves vs. his 1 Smithy, 2 Platinum vs. his 1, 2 Banks vs. his 5 (and a Haven). Wharves just do it for me, as expected, 6 Colonies for me: 71-41.

Thanks for the games and good luck for the rest of the tournament.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 07:03:27 pm »
+4



Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394558245310.txt



Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Pearl Diver, Shanty Town, Alchemist, Baron, Noble Brigand, City, Graverobber, Venture, King's Court
We both go for an Alchemist Stack with KC and Baron as payload. I open Shanty Town / Potion, but he has 5/2 and opens Potion / Crossroads. We both buy an Alchemist turn 4, but really bad was for me turn 6 where I only get to $2P and my Potion even misses the shuffle, this puts me quite behind. In the next turn my Baron finds an Estate but I only hit $6 instead of $7 and decided to get a Gold to be able to hit $7 soon. My opponent bought Alchemists on both turns 6 and 7. I hit $7 for a King's Court in turn 8. In turn 10 my Potion again misses the shuffle, but was this time able to get an Alchemist. On turns where we hit $5 I go for Cities while he goes for Ventures. He later said that it was a mistake as he will eventually draw his whole deck. In turn 14 he took initiative and bought the first Province. In turn 15 he draws the deck and gets triple Province for a big 4 Province lead. In turn 16 I can draw my whole deck and get double Province + Duchy and hope for a bad turn on his part... which he had. He didn't find his Baron so buys only 1 Province. But my deck was only capable of generating $22P and I needed $23 to win. D'oh. I should have counted this earlier, and should have bought a Baron instead of a Duchy. He draws his deck next turn and wins. So I lost because I was unlucky AND because I gave up too early instead of thinking and grabbing the Baron.


Game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394559286966.txt



Code: [Select]
Hermit, Oracle, Familiar, Coppersmith, Young Witch, Duke, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Mint, Wharf, Peddler
Three Cursers, but for me this is clearly a Duke board with Hermit and Haggler as support. He opens Hermit/Silver so I get Hermit/Young Witch. Not sure about Young Witch here, maybe it was a mistake. Both my opening buys miss the shuffle, awesome! But opponent goes for a Wharf BM deck aiming for Provinces, so I still have a chance. I get my first Duchy in turn 8 after getting the Haggler in turn 7. First it seemed he wants to contest the Duchies as gets one in the following turn, but then he still prefers Province and Gold over Duchy. I win the Duchy split 6/2. He had 4 additional Provinces though before I could grab any Duke, so I felt pretty behind, but he stalled pretty hard. He also contested the Dukes a bit, not sure if he should do that, but he wasn't able to hit Province until 7 of the Dukes where gone. I end up winning the Duke split 6/2 too. He has 6 Provinces at that moment, so I'm ahead 4 Duchies over his 2 2-point Dukes and some Curses. He grabs the second last Province and I can win the game by buying the last Province.


Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394560994292.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Herbalist, Squire, Stonemason, Apothecary, Doctor, Caravan, Golem, Hunting Party, Library
This was the most interesting board for me. I have 5/2 and struggled hard between going for an Apothecary deck with the help of Stonemason or if I should buy and overpay for Doctor. I decide to go for the Apothecary route and open Squire/Potion - which maybe should have been Herbalist/Potion, but my opening buys didn't collide, so it didn't matter. My opponent opens Silver/Potion which I didn't like so much. He then picks up a Transmute with $3P over Apothecary, what!? He then uses his Transmute trashing the Estates for Golds and prefers 1 Hunting Party over Double Apothecary and over Double Hunting Party. He later stonemasons Gold into 2 Hunting Parties though. I have a lot of Apothecaries, but he has a lot of Hunting Parties and his deck works so much better while my deck just doesn't come together. He takes the initiative for greening, so I had to green prematurely, but I just weren't able to keep up. He later stopped again to build more what gave me the opportunity to catch up, but his deck was so much better, so this was a clear win for him. I'm interested in feedback on this game. Was my strategy inferior or did I just executed it badly? Should I have opened with Doctor? What would you have done?


Game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394562363827.txt



Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Herbalist, Wishing Well, Bishop, Plaza, Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Horn of Plenty, Vault, Expand
The engine is weak here with Wishing Well and Vault as weak draw and Herbalist as weak +Buy and Bishop as weak trasher. I just spam Bandit Camps and Plazas for $4 and $5, get 2 Vaults and play BM. My opponent goes for Horn of Plenty, but with the weak draw and Wishing Well antisynergizing with the Horns this just doesn't work out. After I have 2 Platina and a couple of coin tokens I can hit Colony quite regularly and he just resigns as he realizes that a Horn mega turn just isn't possible on this board.


Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394563888599.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Oracle, Wishing Well, Cutpurse, Death Cart, Fortress, Island, Remake, Merchant Guild, Border Village
This was another neat game. The draw is again weak here in Oracle and Wishing Well, but with Remake the trasher is strong. Also Border Village and Remake/Fortress and Death Cart/Fortress trickery makes the engine superior to Oracle BM, so we both go for it. I open Remake/Silver while he is unlucky with his 5/2 and opens Remake/-. I soon prefer Wishing Well over Silver while he only has 1 WW. He gets Death Cart in turn 8 already while I wait much longer. He also had 3 Merchant Guilds in his deck but only 1 Oracle, I think he should have focussed more on draw early on. In turn 11 I draw my deck and get my Death Cart - which probably should have been a Merchant Guild first, which I noticed next turn and get it there. My oppenent then started to remake Fortresses in a lot of Merchant Guilds, I think way too many, he had 5 MGs in turn 12. Piles were now getting really low, in turn 13 he remade Fortress into the second last MG and Duchy. I get Province/WW in my turn with BV gone, 1 MG and 2 WW left, in hand sight a bit too risky. At that point my deck was better as he had to few draw for that many MGs he had, still he manages to get to 13$ and 3 coin tokens, with 1 more buy he could have tied me. I expect him to go for double Province, but somehow he assumed the MG pile was empty too and goes for Province - double WW, a mistake that will cost him the game.


Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394644119709.txt



Code: [Select]
Scrying Pool, Trade Route, Watchtower, JackOfAllTrades, Moneylender, Contraband, Journeyman, Mine, Outpost, Treasury
This was the most boring game. This is Jack/Journeyman BM. Going from second position I expected to lose this game. We both open Jack/Silver. He gets to $4 in the second shuffle and get the second Jack while I had $5 and buy a Journeyman. Despite having two Jacks he only trashed one Estate while I trashed two of them. So we greened with him being one point ahead. He gets a Journeyman in between as his third terminal. We duchy danced for a little bit, he only hit $7 in turn 14 with 2 Provinces left. With him being 4 points ahead I had to buy the Province in my turn 14. He gets unlucky again and hits $7 again. I reshuffle and with $7 and Journeyman I'm basically guaranteed $8 and win the match luckily.


Thanks for the games Teproc, good luck for the rest of the tournament, and sorry for the unlucky last match for you and the mistake in game 5. A tie would have been deserved for you.
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Polk5440

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 07:14:50 pm »
0

@Adam: the one other thing mentioned in the chat that was cut off that hasn't been mentioned above is that you should have switched to Mining Villages over Fishing Villages sooner -- or gone for them right away. The $2 is important late.

Regarding game 2, I am definitely on the side of Plaza-Silver into one BoM and Library.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 07:38:59 pm »
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@Qvist :

Game 1 : Not much to say there, you got quite unlucky in a mirror.

Game 2 : I tend to underestimate Duke still, but I do think Wharf was better on this board. However, I shouldn't have even tried to contest Dukes and should have probably bought a Duchy over a Gold early in the game.

Game 3 : I figured Transmute would be pretty good in a HP stack. No clue if I just got lucky or if I was right, but it worked pretty much as intended.

Game 4 : Yeah, HoP was not a thing there, I was blinded by my love for the card.

Game 5 : I don't think I could have double Provinced that turn, but I would have gone Province/Duchy if I hadn't stupidly thought Merchant Guilds were gone. Dunno if I would have won from there, and anyway it's my own fault for not double checking ;)

Game 6 : Yeah, I had some bad luck there, but that's how it goes.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 10:12:33 pm »
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Quote
Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394560994292.txt

     
     
Code: [Select]
Transmute, Herbalist, Squire, Stonemason, Apothecary, Doctor, Caravan, Golem, Hunting Party, Library

This was the most interesting board for me. I have 5/2 and struggled hard between going for an Apothecary deck with the help of Stonemason or if I should buy and overpay for Doctor. I decide to go for the Apothecary route and open Squire/Potion - which maybe should have been Herbalist/Potion, but my opening buys didn't collide, so it didn't matter. My opponent opens Silver/Potion which I didn't like so much. He then picks up a Transmute with $3P over Apothecary, what!? He then uses his Transmute trashing the Estates for Golds and prefers 1 Hunting Party over Double Apothecary and over Double Hunting Party. He later stonemasons Gold into 2 Hunting Parties though. I have a lot of Apothecaries, but he has a lot of Hunting Parties and his deck works so much better while my deck just doesn't come together. He takes the initiative for greening, so I had to green prematurely, but I just weren't able to keep up. He later stopped again to build more what gave me the opportunity to catch up, but his deck was so much better, so this was a clear win for him. I'm interested in feedback on this game. Was my strategy inferior or did I just executed it badly? Should I have opened with Doctor? What would you have done?

Just having a quick glance at the board - I wonder if Doctor/Squire then transitioning into Squire/Library is something. This looks awfully fast.
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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 06:15:29 am »
0

Game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516db980e4b082c74d7c7329.1394558245310.txt
Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Pearl Diver, Shanty Town, Alchemist, Baron, Noble Brigand, City, Graverobber, Venture, King's CourtBut my deck was only capable of generating $22P and I needed $23 to win.
I think you would lose on turns with $23 (Province +3 duchies): 5 provinces vs 3 provinces and 4 duchies.
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2014, 07:54:08 am »
+1

For that Qvist/Teproc apothecary game: That's exactly how transmute can be used with apothecary or hunting party. Qvist was asking what went wrong with his deck and I'm pretty sure it starts right away with the squires. They clogged up the apothecary drawing and prevented the flow just to get extra buys that were rarely used.
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dudeabides

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2014, 08:08:01 am »
0

Dudeabides 3
17and3buys 0

Game 1   43-36   
Supply: Lookout, Ironmonger, Procession, Spice Merchant, Baker, Butcher, Cartographer, Harvest, Laboratory, Adventurer

I open Spice Merchant/Lookout to his Spice Merchant/silver.  He started greening early (Province on Turn 7), which scared me a bit given that the only +Buy is from Spice Merchant.  I think Butcher was the key to this board, as it let me get rid of my Lookout, Spice Merchant, and Procession once they had served their uses.

http://archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20140310/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1394495149953.txt


Game 2   41-21   
Supply: Oracle, Warehouse, Feodum, Plaza, Rats, Minion, Mountebank, Soothsayer, Stash, Possession

I go for Minion/Mountebank/Plaza to my opponent's Soothsayer/Plaza/Warehouse.  Minion is a strong card on its own, but with Plaza to rack up coin tokens and Mountebank for +$2 and Curse/Copper dishing, it cannot be ignored on this board.  I win the Curse split 4/6.

http://archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20140310/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1394496101561.txt

Game 3   48-36   
Supply: Chapel, Forager, Herald, Horse Traders, Moneylender, Trader, Worker's Village, Mystic, Pillage, Expand

I open Chapel/Trader to Chapel/Moneylender.  I draw Chapel and 4C on turn 3, while his Chapel and Moneylender collide on his turn 4. My Trader misses the reshuffle and collides with Chapel on turn 5.  I (perhaps prematurely) trash Chapel with Trader.  Silvers from Trader make the difference in this game. 

http://archive-dominionlogs.goko.com/20140310/log.506b5cfc0cf21d2313f966fe.1394496755403.txt

All in all it was a fun set of games.  Best of luck to 17and3buys in the remainder of the tournament.
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Monsieur X

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2014, 10:31:01 am »
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Monsieur X   3             moharimo     1

interesting games and very close, i think i won having more luck than him

game 1  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394627538693.txt   1-0
he has 5/2 with margrave  i open double silver but his margrave doesnt hurt me on turns 3-4.
After turn 4 i have 3 silvers and a margrave. turn 5 i have 7 for a forge.... ;) thats just perfect
Next he is always a bit late and i end with 3 piles with talisman

game 2  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394632706578.txt  1-1
What a frustrating game : so long, with so many time to have my first extra buy in BM, and at the end he just have 16 to take double province when i thougth "thats it!  i will have it next turn!"
But nothing to say, i made so many mistakes  (my opening  BM spice merchant,  taking so many time to have militia/masquerade, taking so many time to have journeymans... and my last turn buying a GM maybe forbid me to have enough to win this turn.... and maybe other mistakes)
Just being my oponent i would have rushed more on provinces when he bougth festival on BM. He was the only one to have extra-buys and has a good engine and lot of coins token. He gave me turns to dream.

game 3  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394633194281.txt  2-1
Wharf big money  with counterfeit, and hoard   
Before my turn 15  he is 11VP ahead and just 2 provinces remaining. And next dreams come true....
Sorry moharimo for that incredible end

game 4 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.50bf7f45e4b06eb53227757d.1394633731620.txt  3-1
For me it was a very complexe choice here... both 4/3
the couple worker village/ fools gold tried to seduce me
ambassador but with nothing  to build something....
trader why not!
Im obsessed by this ambassador thinking  "im the first player, i'm the first player! thats so good!"
At the moment i choose ambassador/trader... i thougth "oh no! you're stupid guy! ambassador is so bad here, its a trader big money game"
Moharimo took lookout/trader which seems better and i was crushed!  But finally moharimo took an ambassador turn 3, and give me 2 silvers next. I didnt use mine.
a good mint for me turn 6, and a lucky necropolis/ trader overgrow estate /mint silver/ buy silver next turn


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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2014, 11:11:28 am »
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soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.
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Geronimoo

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2014, 11:20:20 am »
0

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.

I didn't play well. Maybe I shouldn't have been playing those 180 player poker SitnGOs at the same time...??
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2014, 11:27:16 am »
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soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.

I didn't play well. Maybe I shouldn't have been playing those 180 player poker SitnGOs at the same time...??

I, on the other hand, have no excuse.
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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2014, 11:51:30 am »
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soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

Since it has been almost 2 pages since the original post, I wanted to point out for the interested audience, that I finished adding comments to our match.

I didn't play well. Maybe I shouldn't have been playing those 180 player poker SitnGOs at the same time...??
Did you at least won something from the SitnGOs?
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2014, 12:01:40 pm »
+1

Long overdue posting of the logs from Tables and my games. I streamed the match and have been wrestling with youtube to get it up, I'm just going to give up and post the logs and some thoughts.

Game One

We mirror the engine and both run into the nombos of Armory/Loan and Armory/Wandering Minstrel. In retrospect, Altar is probably good enough trashing here that you can ignore loan in light of that. I'm ahead for awhile but he pulls out a great last turn and wins.

Game Two

Goons engine with Prizes to help you out. I severely overestimate the importance of the Prizes here and open Death Cart of all things to try and rush them. I assumed that the draw from Trusty Steed and Followers is essential for the engine; as that fact that I got both of them and still lost proves, probably not. Tables more sensibly focuses on Goons and crushes me.

Game Three

Basically Mercenary/BM, with caravan and tunnel to spice things up. I thought Tunnel would be a great defense against urchin and merc but he buys his golds the old fashioned way and gets way more points.

Good games, Tables, and thanks for the match!
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secret tunnel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2014, 12:41:39 pm »
+1

I played a very even series of rounds with Smartie, ending in a tie 3-3 draw.

Game 1: To my mind, a not-very-interesting engine game with Nobles, Herald, and Vault. I fell behind early and needed better luck than I got with my Heralds. I manage a double-Province turn to make it close, but Smartie didn't stall on the last turn like I needed him too. He wins 39-34.

Game 2: Soothsayer and Chapel are the central cards here. Smartie opens Chapel/Feast, I open Chapel/Silver. A late Feast and Count work well for me to grab some extra Duchies in the end game to put it away. I grab some Silvers via Masterpiece midway through; I think they help me, but I'm not sure. I win 42-29.

Game 3: Jack and Hamlet. Smartie opens 5/2 with Hamlet/Trading Post, which I figure is a huge advantage for me, but I end up just pulling out a squeaker. I think I probably overestimate the value of Hamlet here; maybe a purer Jack+money strategy would have worked better? I'd be curious to know what's best here. I win 38-36.

Game 4: Familiar. I'm aiming to get 6vp Fairgrounds on this Shelters board. I like how things are working for me -- my early Alter helps a lot -- but Smartie's big advantage in Curses ends up just slightly too much. This could easily have gone either way at the end, but I lose 22-23.

Game 5: An incredibly boring Workshop/Gardens, which we both go for. I don't really see any other choices here. (Does anyone?) I lose 26-20, with 29 cards in my deck. I had a chance to Workshop the last Workshop for a tie; obviously I wish I'd taken it.

Game 6: This is the one I was least sure what to do with. Ambassador, but no villages or cantrip money; I also see Philosopher's Stone. I'm also eyeing some wackiness with Great Hall/Remake/Silk Road. No actual buys, but we have Haggler and HoP. I end up holding my breath and ignoring Ambassador, going for Stones, and taking a few extra green cards to try and get Silk Road at 3 or even 4. The plan works better than I expect it to, and I clear the Provinces before getting a chance to pump up the SRs. I'd be very interested to hear expert opinion on the ideal strategy for this board; I feel lucky that what was in effect a pure guess ended up working very well. This was the only game of the whole set that didn't feel extremely close and tense the whole way through. I win 43-25.

I think that if Smartie and I played ten more games, we'd probably be tied 8-8. Thanks for the match!
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Smartie

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2014, 01:06:18 pm »
+1

Thanks secret tunnel. It was really tense for the games (Perhaps except the last game which I really do not know what I was doing...)

Game 1: I think my 5-2 opening for vault gave me a slight lead to getting nobles, which I felt was important for the combo of drawing large amounts of cards. In the middle I clicked wrongly (+actions instead of +cards), which got me slightly panicked. Luckily vault was definitely quite strong in this game which earned my 1st win.

Game 2: I think I might have gone duchy too early considering you had the masterpiece. Probably I panicked to quickly seeing the vp tokens creeping on me! :P But the silvers really did help decently in the "duchy dance"

Game 3: Failed strategy I guess. But on retrospective, if I had gotten 2 JOAT, there might be a good chance of winning? I am not sure... But jack and hamlet is indeed quite a strong combo I must admit :)

Game 4: I lucked out this game. If he had the money to get the fairgrounds, I wouldnt be able to clinch that victory :)

Game 5: Boring strategy of gardens-workshop, but me starting 1st definitely had a slight advantage in this game.

Game 6: By the time I reached this game, my mind was a whirl.. Was confused of the strategy to try, but seems like philosopher stone is a winning strategy here. I knew my loss the moment he got the potion =P But quick thinking pawned my slow mind :)

Overall great games! Have learnt a lot from this gokodom despite my relatively poor results. All the best! May we meet again secret tunnel
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dnkywin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2014, 03:08:34 pm »
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dnkywin defeats Simon(DK), 3-1

Game 1: Simon (DK) 43, dnkywin resigned

Key Card(s): Tournament. He beats me to the Province, then the Followers. Things quickly go downhill after that.

Game 2: dnkywin 33, Simon (DK) 17

Key Card(s): Rebuild, Goons. I open 5/2 in 1st position and pick up a Royal Seal (Royal Seal seems really good in this game, but maybe I didn't need a second one?) Anyhow, it helps me win the Duchy split and I'm also able to pick up a Goons along the way.

Game 3: dnkywin 3, Simon (DK) -2

Key Card(s): Mountebank, Ironworks, Urchin, Vineyards. I open Silver/IW with the primary intention of getting Vineyards (seeing as there is a cheap cantrip on the board as well), and my opponent opens Silver/Silver (presumably to get the Mountebank). I'm able to also pick up a Mountebank in the first shuffle and I proceed to mass IW/Urchin. Before either of us is able to make any real progress, I end the game by picking up 2 Urchins and 2 IW with my 4 ironworks, and buy the last curse for the win. In the end, I only had 1 Vineyard, but it was worth 8 VP.

Game 4: Simon (DK) 37, dnkywin 49

Key Card(s): Margrave, Baker?. I think I just had better luck this game. Simon draws his three margraves together near the end, and I'm able to snag the last Duchy and Estate to reach 43 VP. (Just wondering, is picking up a few Bakers the right play here?)

Thanks for the games, Simon (DK)!
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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2014, 07:07:48 pm »
+2

Rabid - Psyduck 1:3

Game 1



Code: [Select]
Native Village, Smugglers, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Noble Brigand, Apprentice, Pillage, Witch, Expand, Forge
Witch seems dominant on that board, but there is also expensive trashing in Forge, Apprentice and Expand. Rabid opens double Silver, I take Smugglers with a Silver, hoping to smuggle a Witch. This doesn't happen at first, but his Witch misses her first shuffle, while mine doesn't and I also get a second. Later he gets a second which I smuggle, after already having smuggled some Gold.
I'm also very lucky to stop his second Witch play with my only Pillage.
Rabid plays it a bit more moneyish, while I go for Native Villages, Apprentices and a Forge. This causes me to get through my deck quicker and even play more Witches. I win the split 8-2 and can even trash my two Curses.

Game 2



Code: [Select]
Chapel, Pearl Diver, Oasis, Familiar, Contraband, Explorer, Jester, Tactician, Harem, Expand
Here, I have the advantage of starting 5/2 (Tactician + Chapel), while Rabid must settle for Chapel/Oasis. I'm still not sure if Tactician is better than Jester here, but it worked out quite well. We trash down, I get a Jester, he gets a Gold, which my Jester directly hits. At this point he has trashed much more agressively (maybe a bit too much?), with his deck consisting of 2xOasis, Gold, Silver, Chapel. He then gets an Explorer and starts going for Provinces. This works well at the beginning. However, I start buying Familiars and clog up his thin deck. By turn 12 he has 3 Provinces, but also 9 Curses and stalls very hard. I manage to get some money by expanding Potion and Familiars and can catch up without big problems.

Game 3



Code: [Select]
Haven, Lighthouse, Ironworks, Island, Remodel, Smithy, Duke, Jester, Junk Dealer, Goons
Another interesting one. I see three possible roads to take here: Goons, Ironworks/Island and Duke. I feel there is no strong Duke support (Jester? Goons?) but I'm not sure at all. Goons is always strong, and there is Junk Dealer to get rid of additional Coppers. But there is also Lighthouse as protection. Ironworks/Island is not the classic rush combination, but I thought it would be good with Lighthouses to gain to protect against Goons and go for it. Rabid goes for Goons and Junk Dealers anyway. This turns out to be the better choice, as I fail to get enough points fast enough to threaten three-piling. His two Goons assemble enough points for him to bring home the game safely.

Game 4



Code: [Select]
Stonemason, Doctor, Shanty Town, Feast, Rats, Thief, Counterfeit, Highway, Mystic, Grand Market
I love that board! Highway/(Grand) Market just plays awesome every time. And here we also have Stonemason to gain GMs with Coppers in play. Now the big question is: How to begin? Counterfeit is certainly important to trash Coppers, so Feast is an option. Shanty Town is nice to for cyling and later to find more cantrips. There is also Doctor which can trash stuff. Rabid has 3/4 and goes for Feast/Silver. I have 4/3 and start Doctor/Silver. He then gets another Feast and trashes them for Counterfit and Highway, while I'm busy trashing Coppers and Estates, which works surprisingly well. Having the thinner deck, I use Stonemason to catch up in action cards. The Highways split 6-4 in my favour. As the piles start getting low, Rabid starts greening in turn 11, then I get my super turn and buy 4 Provinces. From then on it's never again really close and I win by stonemasoning a GM into the last two Duchies.


Rabid, like I said in the chat, I enjoyed the games a lot. These were really interesting ones.
Having had a chance to review them I must admit that I got very lucky, though. Winning the curse split 8-2 as second player in game 1 is ridiculuos. In game 2 I think 5/2 was stronger than 3/4. In game 3 your strategy was better, while in game 4 I had 4/3 compared to your 3/4 which made Doctor, which I think made the difference, more appealing. Thanks for these games and see you soon for a couple of revenge games, if you like. :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 07:11:36 pm by Psyduck »
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2014, 11:12:05 pm »
+1

amalloy 3-0 schneeg.


Game 1



Code: [Select]
Stonemason, Vagrant, Tunnel, Watchtower, Cutpurse, Salvager, Talisman, Council Room, Cultist, Altar
Cultist/money looks like the dominant strategy here, and Watchtower/Altar may be able to play a role. I opened Silver/Silver to avoid terminal collision with the Cultists I planned to get soon; schneeg grabbed a Cutpurse to stop me from getting to them. But amazingly, Cutpurse hits my $7 hand, and I can still afford Altar. The ruin split goes pretty evenly, and in the end my Altar and Stonemason give me enough endgame control to end it while I'm ahead.

amalloy 1-0 schneeg

Game 2


Code: [Select]
Watchtower, Procession, Talisman, Thief, Wandering Minstrel, Bandit Camp, Graverobber, Mint, Goons, Harem
Goons with Watchtower and tons of Villages - should be fun. I opened Talisman/Silver, but I think schneeg's Watchtower-Silver is better: you want to be getting 5s and 6s ASAP, and then later gaining lots of 4s and 3s. I thought Procession would play a big role in upgrading me into Goons, but I never ended up buying one. The game was very much a mirror, with all the key cards splitting evenly. I think schneeg had the edge, but he carelessly took two of the last four Watchtowers while ahead by only two VPs, so I was able to clean those out and win.

amalloy 2-0 schneeg


Game 3


Code: [Select]
Transmute, Native Village, Oracle, Shanty Town, Familiar, Bridge, Fortress, Herald, Spice Merchant, Graverobber
As I later said in the chat to schneeg, I know Native Village + Bridge is a good combo, but I don't know the details of how to play it. I opted for "buy lots of NV+Bridge, set aside every time, and hope to put lots of Bridges in hand eventually". The Alchemy cards also left me a little unsure - do you bother getting a Familiar? If your opponent does, do you want a Transmute or do you just soak up the curses? I'd love some feedback from stronger players on this one.

scheeg's shuffle luck was not good in this game: his Potion missed the first shuffle, and then when he got to play the Familiar he had to trigger another shuffle! To add insult to injury, he put his second Familiar on the NV mat. But I had some bad draws of my own: I never succeeded in putting a single Bridge on my mat, so when schneeg forced my hand by getting the piles low, my "megaturn" only contained one Bridge! But that was enough to buy a Province and some breathing room; a couple turns later I had enough buys to get Duchy/Curse/Curse and end it ahead by one.
amalloy 3-0 schneeg


Three close games, any one of which could have gone the other way. Thanks for the games, schneeg!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 11:16:38 pm by amalloy »
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2014, 11:49:24 pm »
+1

Titandrake and I tied our match 3-3. I don't think I've ever played 6 more grueling, frustrating, miserable games!

Titandrake 3-3 Robz888

Will upload videos/add commentary when I have time to.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140313/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1394747938376.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140313/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1394750423193.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140313/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1394751250645.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140313/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1394752115848.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140313/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1394752899655.txt
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140313/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1394754194926.txt

Here was the first game:



Code: [Select]
Chapel, Baron, Feodum, Sea Hag, Smithy, Cultist, Horn of Plenty, Hunting Party, Mint, Wharf
Okay, check this out. He gets first player, and gets to open 5/2 (Cultist/Chapel here, pretty good!). I get to open Silver/Chapel. Silver and Chapel are cards 11 and 12 in my deck, and I get 9 Ruins. NINE. It was a hilarious streak of bad luck that got less hilarious as it carried into later games...

The second game was a Fools Gold thing that turned into a slog, but my opponent lost his internet connection right before the end. It's unclear who would have one at that point. I think he was a little more likely to win, but it was just going to come down to the last Province. We agreed to scratch it and start again.

The real second game was this:



Code: [Select]
Shanty Town, Farming Village, Mining Village, Nomad Camp, Pirate Ship, Quarry, Hunting Party, Mine, Pillage, Hoard
I'm certainly open to the argument that I played badly, especially after I lose the Hunting Party split and have no idea what to do to recover. But... why did I lose the Hunting Party split??? Anyway, I'm not necessarily writing this one off as bad luck, although I did feel like early on my good cards kept getting stuck at the bottom of my shuffle. That becomes a recurring theme...

Game 3:



Code: [Select]
Poor House, Chancellor, Watchtower, Baker, Counterfeit, Cultist, Outpost, Pillage, Altar, Fairgrounds

Well, my luck swings back the other way, here. First player and Cultist, and it's game over on like Turn 5. How fun.

Continued in next post...
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2014, 12:01:59 am »
+1

Game 4:



Code: [Select]
Vagrant, Oracle, Monument, Noble Brigand, Spice Merchant, Trader, Contraband, Junk Dealer, Mountebank, Expand
I play this one very aggressively and kind of crazy. When I draw Spice Merchant with no Copper, I buy another SM. Two SMs actually did a lot of good work for me here, I think, cycling me better. Of course, Mountebank is the big thing, but he blocks with his Curse in hand over and over and over again. And he's hitting $6 over and over and over again. The thing is, that's deceptively bad for him. He amasses some ridiculous number of Golds--I think 7 by games end--and I start charging Noble Brigands. I'm over terminaled, but eventually the attack catches up with him. He takes a commanding lead but I grind him down, and I can buy the last two Provinces in back-to-back turns to win. So this was kind of a fun one.

Game 5:



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Native Village, Fishing Village, Warehouse, Coppersmith, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Embassy, Junk Dealer, Outpost
I play Horse Traders/Warehouse/Fools Gold. He attempts the engine, but then goes for Fools Gold, too. I don't think the mix is very good, although it's quite possible the pure engine should triumph. Of course, that would let me get so many FGs. And the engine isn't the greatest thing ever. It has villages and draw and trashing, but no attacks, nothing flashy. Although I know we say always go engine here, just pure FG is fast, and FG had enablers here. What do the experts say? Anyway, I won, but it was close.

Game 6:



Code: [Select]
Haven, Workshop, Sea Hag, Treasure Map, Bandit Camp, Ill-Gotten Gains, Junk Dealer, Vault, Goons, Expand
I'm going first, and my buys are Silver / Sea Hag / Sea Hag. We end up splitting the Curses 7-3... AND I'M ON THE LOSING END. When this happened in Game 1 it was funny, this time I was sort of mad. Not at my opponent obviously, and I know sometimes you just get unlucky, and I don't even know, maybe the middle games balanced out all the bad luck I got in Games 1 and 6. But... man. Ugh.

I mount the best comeback I possibly can, but I know it's hopeless. I have to buy Havens to Haven away Silvers so I can have hands that produce $5 so that I can buy Junk Dealers so that I can trash these Curses. It turns around and is decently close at one point, but he can end it on piles and kill me off (Goons helps him keep an edge, too).

Many thanks to my opponent for putting up with my complaining, then and now, and also being patient as I was late to the game.
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2014, 06:04:19 am »
+2

Videos are up. I talk softer as the series goes on, which was not intentional. I also forgot to update the labels to keep track of the series, so it's inaccurate after game 2.

Game 1:


Robz already went over game 1. I didn't know it was possible for a game to become so one-sided until now.

Game 2:

So I'm not sure how Robz lost the HP split either. I think I got $5s and Robz got $4s, and that's why. Not the best explanation. Anyways, although Robz getting Quarry seems right, I'm not sure if the Quarry I bought was the right call or not. I don't use it that much, and it's another differently named card. Doesn't matter though, 6 Hunting Parties is too good with Pillage in the kingdom.

Game 3:

No idea why I bought Watchtower. It doesn't do anything, you don't have any +Actions to even abuse it with. Deep down, I really wanted to trash a Cultist with it. That's my guess. Losing the Ruins split 7-3 is rough, not sure what else I could have done besides not buy Watchtower and maybe skip the Gold for Altar.

Game 4:

Spice Merchant was a good call, I thought it would run out of fuel but Mountebank always keeps it filled. I get really lucky early, then don't properly recognize that this game is going to go long and NB will be enough to catch up. Or rather, I realize it partway through, but because Robz has barely bought any Golds, I think it's better to ignore and try to rush Provinces. I don't quite make it. Talked after the game about potentially using Expand, which lets me skip buying Gold if I don't want it. Or maybe, my Noble Brigands should be Monuments, to give me more VP. I don't know. Or, maybe I buy Trader, and Trader my Gold into 6 Silvers to make it hard to cripple my economy. That might actually work. Interesting game.

Game 5:

I start building engine, chicken out and decide the FG strategy is faster, and transition into a big mess. I'm fairly certain the engine isn't good enough here. Embassy is technically only a net of +2 cards. With Junk Dealer, you won't have too many dead cards to discard to Embassy. Your +Buy, Horse Traders, also discards cards, and that anti-synergizes with Embassy because you won't have that many dead cards to throw away. Even Fishing Village doesn't increase handsize, and Farming Village means you won't have that many junk cards in hand because it'll skip over the dead ones. All in all, I think this is a case where you have a lot of engine pieces, but they all anti-synergize enough to make it not worth it. (It also helps that Fool's Gold is really fast with HT for +Buy and Warehouse for cycling.)

Game 6:


When you lose the curse split 7-3, you're gonna have a bad time. I think I'm a bit sloppy here, in that I shouldn't have to worry about my lead ever this game if I play correctly, but it really doesn't matter. The Havens really put in work, and made the game a lot more plausible. I pick up Goons + Junk Dealer, then end it before he has a chance to catch up by using Goons VP to stay ahead. (Something I picked up from Geronimoo last Gokodom, when I was on the receiving end of a slow 3-pile with Goons.)

So, the tl;dr for each game is,
dumb luck, weird money splits, first player advantage, the comeback, the throw, and back to dumb luck. So, not the greatest series. But it was fun!
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RTT

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2014, 06:23:38 am »
+3

Ok Guys Videos are uploaded ;) i recomend not watching game 5 unless you are cruel and want to hear my scream of pain when i missclick horribly ...

Game 1 crazy Possesion KC


Game 2


Game 3


Game 4


Game 5 (just dont watch this)


Game 6 (double hag missing the shuffle just to kick me when i´m allready down)
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thetig333

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2014, 05:38:21 pm »
0

Lekkit vs TheTig333

http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140314/log.512ba416e4b022198f05f8e2.1394828434019.txt
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140314/log.512ba416e4b022198f05f8e2.1394829332604.txt
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140314/log.512ba416e4b022198f05f8e2.1394830091569.txt
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140314/log.512ba416e4b022198f05f8e2.1394831147158.txt

Ugly logs. Commentary to come!

Thanks for the games Lekkit! Here are my comments:

Game 1: You had me beat from the start in this game. I was not happy at all with the 5:2 start since I originally wanted to go with a Fortress/Savager/Market Square strategy. And your Sea Hag certainly didn't help anything. Also, I did NOT have enough Fortresses. I really should have bought one on Turn 14. Your Stonemason trick for ending the piles at the end was pretty slick. And you had the game regardless.

Game 2: I think the key to me winning this game might have been the early Mountebank. It seemed to really hurt your deck. From there I got ahead in the Rebuild game and that was that.

Game 3: Here was a game where we clearly had different strategies, you with wharf/bank and me with university/$5card engine. And yours was much better. Mostly just because it was so much faster than mine, and also had less left up to chance. Good call.

Game 4: After getting 5/8 Tunnels I thought I would come out with the win here, but it apparently wasn't enough. Looking back I probably should have bought a Journeyman, I was just afraid of revealing warehouses. Your Pillage also seemed to work quite nicely for you. Close close game.
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liopoil

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2014, 06:33:43 pm »
+1

liopoil vs. Jean-Michel:

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394832374120.txt
Tie. We pretty much mirror in this weird BM game. He says he got lucky, but I dunno, our decks look pretty even. 0.5-0.5
Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394833132998.txt
I got a lucky 5-2 split on a cultist board which was a big deal. My first cultist did miss the first reshuffle, but still, that was a big help towards getting more cultists and fewer ruins. 1.5-0.5
Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394833813085.txt
He goes for governors, I don't. He wins. 1.5-1.5
Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394834686704.txt
Very interesting kingdom, I'd like to hear from f.ds about this. I wasn't sure whether to go for silk road or provinces near the beginning, because while a silk road rush looks faster, there's embargo, and he opened with it. In the end we both went for provinces.  Because silk road was double embargoed. I got a lucky smuggle off his first gold, and in general I think my having two smugglers to his one really helped. I won, but I'm not sure exactly why... also, my potion buy near the end was really silly. I wanted a transmute for duchies, but that was way too slow. 2.5-1.5
Game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394835558298.txt
Another lucky 5-2 split for me with IGG, and there was also moat which really hurt his sea hag, which I think only hit me once. I won the curse split 7-3, and the slowly piledrived the duchies for the win. I made a few mistakes, but the beginning carried me anyway. 3.5-1.5

Thanks for the games!
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KingZog3

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2014, 08:00:57 pm »
0

KingZog3 vs. Breezy. 4-2 for me.
I had to leave so fast after our last game Breezy, but I was already running late for something. Half- half with engine and slogs, but htey were fun anyway.


Game 1 Win

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1394826431612.txt



Code: [Select]
Embargo, University, Baker, Bazaar, Cartographer, Count, Duke, Harvest, Merchant Guild, Tactician
Here we both go for the Univeristy engine with Tactician, Merchant Guild, Bazaar and Cartographer to replace trashing. We both get ultiple Merchant Guild turns in play more than once. Personally I think the Bakers on Breezy's part were a waste of time and Bazaar is just as good, if not better here, since you want to ensure your ability to play all the Merchant Guilds. I manage to pull ahead in Provinces, and he can't keep buying Provinces for fear of me emptying them, despite his deck actually being good.

Game 2 Lose

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394827097905.txt



Code: [Select]
Cellar, Tunnel, Death Cart, Band of Misfits, Council Room, Cultist, Ghost Ship, Mystic, Fairgrounds, Bank
This one is embarrassing on my part. My first $5 was Ghost Ship, but then I decide to go for Cultists. Only after did I see Fairgrounds, and all the Ruins just made his Fairgrounds worth a ton. He also did Tunnel+Cellar and had enough Gold to keep buying VP. Breezy easily wins here.

Game 3 Win
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394828011515.txt


Code: [Select]
Bishop, Conspirator, Farming Village, Ironworks, Mining Village, Scavenger, Laboratory, Stash, Trading Post, Nobles
An obvious Laboratory engine with Nobles, Farming Village support. No +buy, the engine is fast and reliable. Bishop provides from trashing and extra VP and I really think my win was because I only bought 1 Silver and Breezy got 3. 3 less stopper cards is pretty important.

Game 4 Lose
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394828893636.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Ambassador, Scheme, Village, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Horse Traders, Tournament, Baker, Margrave
A Tournament game, with good trashing, and coin tokens to easily get and connect Provinces. I think Princess is the best choice, but I took Diadem over Followers. I was thinking I could pass the curses back with Ambassador, except he was more aggressive with passing junk over and my deck just couldn't handle it. I resign eventually, as I think that his deck is just going to wreck me.

Game 5 Win

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394830115132.txt



Code: [Select]
Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber, Shanty Town, Noble Brigand, Procession, Council Room, Cultist, Minion, Rabble, Adventurer
The mother of all slogs. 35 turns long. This was due to Cultist as well as Minion later on. We both Use Procession, which is not bad here with the ability to trash Ruins as well as make good use of Cultist once the Ruins are gone. Adventurer is alright here too because you don't need to buy it and hitting $8 is tough with all the junk. Beezy thought that I would have been better off with Gold (I never got any) as opposed to Minions, but I disagree. It has great sifting, attacks and is still good money.


Game 6

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394831067586.txt



Code: [Select]
Transmute, Vagrant, Ambassador, Lookout, Feodum, Golem, City, Jester, Knights, Peddler
This one was another log one. 30 turns. There is some Knight battles, but I come out with 2 Knights and Breezy with none. In response, he goes Feodum and I get some Cities, which now have lots of draw. His Feodums work out pretty well, but I don't think it was the right way to go. I can still trash Silver and at some point it becomes harmful to lose Feodums, even with the on-trash effect. Even so, it was only in the last 3-4 turns that I solidified my win.

Thanks for the games Breezy! I enjoyed them, even the sloggy ones.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 11:15:38 am by KingZog3 »
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2014, 08:10:42 pm »
+1

KingZog3 vs. Breezy. I'll check back on drunkensailor later, I don't see the logs from today. These are the ones I remembered to grab after the games. I'll update with the other ones at some point. Both Breezy and I made our share of mistakes but they were good games. Sorry I had to leave so fast after our last game Breezy, but I was already running late for something.


Game 1 Win

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1394826431612.txt


Here we both go for the Univeristy engine with Tactician, Merchant Guild, Bazaar and Cartographer to replace trashing. We both get ultiple Merchant Guild turns in play more than once. Personally I think the Bakers on Breezy's part were a waste of time and Bazaar is just as good, if not better here, since you want to ensure your ability to play all the Merchant Guilds. I manage to pull ahead in Provinces, and he can't keep buying Provinces for fear of me emptying them, despite his deck actually being good.

Game 2 Lose

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394827097905.txt


This one is embarrassing on my part. My first $5 was Ghost Ship, but then I decide to go for Cultists. Only after did I see Fairgrounds, and all the Ruins just made his Fairgrounds worth a ton. He also did Tunnel+Cellar and had enough Gold to keep buying VP. Breezy easily wins here.

Game 3 Win

I'll post the log when it's up on drunkensailor.

Game 4 Lose
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394828893636.txt


A Tournament game, with good trashing, and coin tokens to easily get and connect Provinces. I think Princess is the best choice, but I took Diadem over Followers. I was thinking I could pass the curses back with Ambassador, except he was more aggressive with passing junk over and my deck just couldn't handle the Curses.

Game 5 Win

I'll post when I find the log, but I remember this one was sloggy. It was 35 turns long, lots of junking and just an all around slow game.

Game 6 Win

Honestly I can't remember this game. I'm sure I'll remember it when I see the log. Was this the Knights game? I think it was.

Thanks for the games Breezy! I enjoyed them, even the sloggy ones.

drunkensailor defaults to showing only Pro games, so you won't see your Unrated gokodom matches unless you ask.

Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394828011515.txt
Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394830115132.txt
Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394831067586.txt (yes, it was the Knights game)
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2014, 08:41:45 pm »
0

my games against antigoth:

game1:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140313/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1394744361060.txt

game2:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140313/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1394745644569.txt

game3:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140314/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1394840355614.txt

Not much too say here:
I feel that was a combination of fortunate shuffles for me and him being a bit less experienced in engine building.
His biggest mistake in at least 2 of the engine games was not to prioritize draw as much as needed.

GG and best of luck for the next round, antigoth!
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2014, 02:26:00 am »
0



drunkensailor defaults to showing only Pro games, so you won't see your Unrated gokodom matches unless you ask.

Game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394828011515.txt
Game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394830115132.txt
Game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140314/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1394831067586.txt (yes, it was the Knights game)

Thanks! I guess I don't use the log search enough to know that. I'll update my post at some point tomorrow when I'm awake.
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Jean-Michel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2014, 05:46:57 am »
0

liopoil vs. Jean-Michel:

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394832374120.txt
Tie. We pretty much mirror in this weird BM game. He says he got lucky, but I dunno, our decks look pretty even. 0.5-0.5
I think my 2 Lookouts were a good idea here. They countered Sea Hag well and also trash my coppers. My last turn was very lucky compared to yours.
Quote
Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394833132998.txt
I got a lucky 5-2 split on a cultist board which was a big deal. My first cultist did miss the first reshuffle, but still, that was a big help towards getting more cultists and fewer ruins. 1.5-0.5
Yes, losing Ruins split 7-3 did hurt. I almost caught up in the end, which surprised me. Your deck was far better though, so the result was your victory.
Quote
Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394833813085.txt
He goes for governors, I don't. He wins. 1.5-1.5
Governors are certainly the right call here. I probably started greening way too late but you did some mistakes with the Treasure Maps too, so this was a quite clearly my win.
Quote
Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394834686704.txt
Very interesting kingdom, I'd like to hear from f.ds about this. I wasn't sure whether to go for silk road or provinces near the beginning, because while a silk road rush looks faster, there's embargo, and he opened with it. In the end we both went for provinces.  Because silk road was double embargoed. I got a lucky smuggle off his first gold, and in general I think my having two smugglers to his one really helped. I won, but I'm not sure exactly why... also, my potion buy near the end was really silly. I wanted a transmute for duchies, but that was way too slow. 2.5-1.5
Yes, I should have bought at least 1 more Smugglers. This is really the dream board for them. Silk Road also had some support, but when I saw you opening with Bureaucrat I bought Embargo to prevent going for them. My other opening card should have been Smugglers instead of Bureaucrat. Your Smugglers ended up being a tad luckier than mine which sealed the game.
Quote
Game 5: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5162cba0e4b0e1a71501e85d.1394835558298.txt
Another lucky 5-2 split for me with IGG, and there was also moat which really hurt his sea hag, which I think only hit me once. I won the curse split 7-3, and the slowly piledrived the duchies for the win. I made a few mistakes, but the beginning carried me anyway. 3.5-1.5
My plan here was to split the Curses somewhat equally using the Sea Hags and then go for Provinces via Farmland. Sea Hags are also nice Farmland targets. The plan failed though because only 1 Sea Hag play was successful and I had to buy a couple IGGs to save myself from total debacle.
Quote
Thanks for the games!
You too.

I'm starting to get a bit depressed about my failure in this tournament - I am currently #63 on Isotropish leaderboard and still have managed to lose all three matches I've played. Well, at least the only way is up.  :-\
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faust

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2014, 06:28:29 am »
+1

faust vs. jmieden (joethemieden):

This match had lots of interesting boards, so I'm going to share them in more detail.

Game 1



Code: [Select]
Squire, Conspirator, Farming Village, Navigator, Scout, Treasure Map, Laboratory, Merchant Ship, Rabble, Bank
Log

The road here seems pretty obvious: FV/Rabble engine supported by Conspirators and Squire for +buy. My opponent goes for a strange double Squire opening here which must have been a mistake. He also gets too many Silvers. I am soon able to draw my deck and have five buys. From here, I can get to the win relatively safe.

Note: Farming Village counters Rabble nicely.

Game 2



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Crossroads, Apothecary, Familiar, Gardens, Spy, Talisman, Baker, Jester, Mandarin
Log

There's Familiar without trashers, which is a must-have. There's also some Gardens support in Talisman, and that's what we both go for. Notice that we both open 5/2 and go for Jester over Potion, not sure if that was the correct move. I'm able to snag an early Province, which basically gives me the win here.

Game 3



Code: [Select]
Secret Chamber, Urchin, Warehouse, Monument, Procession, City, Council Room, Mint, Farmland, Bank
Log

So, this was a difficult board, and I totally blew it here in the penultimate turn. Seeing the board, I really wanted to build an engine playing some Council Rooms for +buy and then attacking with Mercenary. Problem is - Council Room is the only +buy (well, and City at some point), there are no gainers, and Mercenary needs fodder. So I got LOTS of Council Rooms (in the end I empty the pile to activate my Cities), which allows my opponent to have a good 3-card hand every turn. The penultimate turn is really me losing the game because I'm lazy (I think). I believed I had one more turn and didn't bother to count whether I had the win, even though I probably did (turning Platina into Colonies with Farmland and buying lots of Provinces should have done it). Of course, he three-piles the following turn, and I lose.

Game 4



Code: [Select]
Embargo, Herbalist, Pawn, Ironmonger, Ironworks, Spy, Cartographer, Highway, Mint, Witch
Log

In this one, I simply got outplayed, no doubt. I think I can make an engine work and overcome Curses. I lose the Curse split and somehow decide it would be a good idea to Mint most of the economy that was left in my deck. From there on, my deck can do almost nothing, and my opponent gets his deserved victory.

Game 5



Code: [Select]
Poor House, Steward, Swindler, Bridge, Fortress, Remodel, Bazaar, Venture, Harem, Possession
Log

Again an engine board, with Steward as a central card for both trashing and drawing. Swindler, interestingly, is a trap here. Early on, I'm not hurt by Coppers turning into Curses because I want to trash them anyway, and when Swindler hits Fortress, that's +1 card, gain a card costing exactly 4 for me. After my opponent gives me a Potion this way, I'm able to incorporate two Possession into my engine, and victory is mine. I think that my opponent would have been better off not playing this with a BM-ish approach (his first 5-cost is Venture).

Game 6



Code: [Select]
Scrying Pool, Forager, Storeroom, Warehouse, Woodcutter, Bishop, Embassy, Pillage, Tribute, Forge
Log

There is great engine potential here with Scrying Pool and Storeroom. However, the board lack +actions. Luckily, we start with shelters, so there's Necropolis, which my opponent forgets about. He plays BM-ish style again, while I amass random action cards, most of which I never play, just to have something to discard with Storeroom. After I have some Scrying Pools, it turns out Tribute actually becomes a reliable source of +action!

Thanks to jmieden for the matches! You were an enjoyable opponent, and very patient through the bazillion restarts that were necessary. Good luck for the rest of the tourney!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:35:57 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

ravi

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2014, 02:13:52 pm »
0

Ravi defeats Aardshark 3-0

Game 1:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140315/log.516cd034e4b082c74d7a014f.1394904580412.txt

Both went for Minions.  He tried to counter my Sea Hag opening with double watchtower and I think that caused too much collision.  He picked up a late Sea Hag to try to make up some ground but my deck was already doing pretty well by then.  Peddlers saved me a bit when I ended up with little to no money after a turn of shanty towns and I was still able to addd some value to my deck.

Game 2:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140315/log.516cd034e4b082c74d7a014f.1394905769291.txt

Starts off with Ambassador ping pong for quite a while and then eventually he breaks through and gets some Minions.  I eventually grabbed a Beggar to just start going for money.  My throne rooms seemed to always link up properly too, but yeah I think I also made the right plays here.

Game 3:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140315/log.516cd034e4b082c74d7a014f.1394906648222.txt

Chapel board with Baker, he opens 5/2.  I get quite a few more bakers than him before getting the Butcher to rid myself of the Chapel.  He is ahead all game and I think it is hopeless but I still grab a Dutchy somewhere.  At 4 provinces to 2 I realize I can double province if I butcher a gold and I think I just kind of get a lucky last play there.  I think he maybe could have taken this one if he was a bit more careful in the end and utilized his Butcher a bit better.

Good games Aardshark.  Also, Goko started us off correctly on every game which is cool when it happens!
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2014, 02:32:10 pm »
+2

Jaybeez defeats TheMirrorMan 3 - 1.

Game 1 : "Don't go for the dark forces" - Jaybeez begins, Jaybeez wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140315/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1394903273047.txt



Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Market Square, Storeroom, Trade Route, Cultist, Horn of Plenty, Market, Rebuild, Soothsayer, Adventurer
Well this already starts out nicely with a heavy board. Key cards : Trade route - Cultist - Rebuild - Soothsayer.

No real engine present - so I have a think. Of course I want rebuild and Trade route, but what to support it ? Going Market Square/Trade route immediately is an option, but it is so dependant on luck I believe.

So for both of us it's the cautious Silver/Silver. Then, as Jaybeez himself points out - the shuffle screws me. He gets 2 x $5 (2 Rebuilds), I get 2 x $4. Aargh. So it's time for alternatives, I'll need to shove his deck full of Ruins, go Cultist/BM and hope for the best. Which works - he gets all 10. To no avail. In the meantime he has 3 Rebuilds and does a walk over.

Game 2 : "Hunt down the deck!" - TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140315/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1394904300162.txt



Code: [Select]
Quarry, Trader, Treasure Map, Baker, Ghost Ship, Hunting Party, Mine, Outpost, Rogue, King's Court
Baker so coin token already there. The plan is clear (for both of us) : Ghost Ship, Silver, then transition into Hunting Parties/KC and pick up some random stuff on the way.

Well it's a back and forth of hitting each others hands, and choosing KC or HP at the appropriate time. My shuffle this time rewards me - I hit Ghost Ship turn 3 and turn 4 I've got 5 coppers. And Jaybeez doesn't have a GS. So HP already. The rest is a bit shenanigans with what to do next - We both get Quarry, he gets Mine, I get Trader (not sure if that really is the right call here). Given lack of double buy, I pick up an outpost on the way - but it really doesn't make much difference. I can win the HP split 8/2 (even taking them with $7+) and that probably is it. I got lucky in return for game 1.

Game 3 : "Banes and lighthouses won't hurt my deck, but your Young witch will always hurt me" - TheMirrorMan begins, Jaybeez wins.

http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140315/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1394904798621.txt



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Haven, Lighthouse, Woodcutter, Cutpurse, Island, Young Witch, Count, Royal Seal, Trading Post, Farmland
Courtyard is bane here and that's okay - not much other than going for BM. So doubtful. I decided to skip the Young Witch with Trading post/Count on the board.

I open Cutpurse/Courtyard, Jaybeez goes YW/Courtyard. So hey, I'm thinking - a few lighthouse along the way - that should do it no ?

Well, it doesn't. He plays YW on turn 3 and 5, hitting me twice. And strangely enough, I'm never able to effectively cut his purse. On $5 I think it's a good idea to go for Count and honestly, that doesn't work out at all. I think either Royal Seal or Trading post could have been better.

Sad to see how he has 5 gold in his deck in the end while I have 1. But I can't pinpoint where exactly this went wrong. Ideas, anyone ?

Game 4 : "The Minion split works. No it doesn't! Yes it does!" - Jaybeez begins, Jaybeez wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140315/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1394905865501.txt



Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Warehouse, JackOfAllTrades, Smithy, Spice Merchant, Throne Room, Baker, Minion, Venture, Nobles
Now this is not the board I want to see if I want to win. Baker coin available and Minion on the board.

Plan is clear for the both of us : win the Minion split. We both open Warehouse/Minion. On turn 4 we're both faced with choices : I get $4, he gets $3. He takes another warehouse, I take the Spice Merchant. The double buy may come in handy at one point. I lose the split 6/4, but see nobles on the board, so decide to pick up a Crossroads inbetween to get the (thinned out) deck running. I win that split 6/2 and am in front for a few turns. In the meantime, he has now picked up a Spice Merchant.

Jaybeez and myself have the same observation : "Apparently the Minion split isn't THAT important" ?

And then, what I already saw coming ... My Spice Merchant starts running out of fuel. You can only refuel (extra copper) once each turn because there is no other +buy on the board. I think at one point, with $12, I needed some sort of 2 x Gold, but I'm not sure. His extra 2 Minions start giving him enough to buy Province + Duchy, while I only have 1 Province each turn. It gives him the upperhand. So yes, the Minion split IS important.

I think after getting the 4th Noble, I should have stopped and repositioned again. Lessons learnt.

Thanks for the games Jaybeez and good luck in the next round!

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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2014, 05:54:23 pm »
+2


Game 4 : "The Minion split works. No it doesn't! Yes it does!" - Jaybeez begins, Jaybeez wins.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140315/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1394905865501.txt



Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Warehouse, JackOfAllTrades, Smithy, Spice Merchant, Throne Room, Baker, Minion, Venture, Nobles
Now this is not the board I want to see if I want to win. Baker coin available and Minion on the board.

Plan is clear for the both of us : win the Minion split. We both open Warehouse/Minion. On turn 4 we're both faced with choices : I get $4, he gets $3. He takes another warehouse, I take the Spice Merchant. The double buy may come in handy at one point. I lose the split 6/4, but see nobles on the board, so decide to pick up a Crossroads inbetween to get the (thinned out) deck running. I win that split 6/2 and am in front for a few turns. In the meantime, he has now picked up a Spice Merchant.

Jaybeez and myself have the same observation : "Apparently the Minion split isn't THAT important" ?

And then, what I already saw coming ... My Spice Merchant starts running out of fuel. You can only refuel (extra copper) once each turn because there is no other +buy on the board. I think at one point, with $12, I needed some sort of 2 x Gold, but I'm not sure. His extra 2 Minions start giving him enough to buy Province + Duchy, while I only have 1 Province each turn. It gives him the upperhand. So yes, the Minion split IS important.

I think after getting the 4th Noble, I should have stopped and repositioned again. Lessons learnt.

Thanks for the games Jaybeez and good luck in the next round!

You could have used one jack of all trades to fuel your spice merchant and build up to double province with throned minions.
with throne, warehouse, minion you could have even used the Jack(s) as draw for your engine. I think this should work even with only 4 minions.
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-Stef-

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2014, 06:24:26 pm »
+2

Game 1 crazy Possesion KC

11:10 - You need 7 points, so the duchy doesn't change anything. In stead, king the doctor to set up next turn and get an estate now.

Game 2

I think after getting 2 fishing villages, you (both) should switch to regular villages. As you mention in the end, his deck of just fishing villages isn't outpost-friendly at all, and i think you actually want the outpost. Also a lot more tricks with forge available, but they're easy to miss. I would trash down a bit more probably.

Game 3

After your great start, you should really get 2 quarries at $4, more urchins at $3 and probably just nothing at $2. The lighthouses get in the way at least as much as they protect.
I don't like all these silvers here.

Game 6 (double hag missing the shuffle just to kick me when i´m allready down)

2:48 - get a mandarin. Mandarin is good in this deck anyway, and you have 50% chance of splitting your sea hags and shuffling one back in.


Sorry for you about the misclick in game 5. Nothing to do after that to save that game. But in the others - especially game 1 & 6 - it's as though you let your misfortune block further thinking / looking for ways out. Breathe in, breathe out & play on ;)
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2014, 10:42:49 pm »
0

You could have used one jack of all trades to fuel your spice merchant and build up to double province with throned minions.
with throne, warehouse, minion you could have even used the Jack(s) as draw for your engine. I think this should work even with only 4 minions.

You are absolutely right Markowkette. I wanted to do this too fast and too furious. Curious that neither of us actually looked at it.

Maybe I need to follow Stef's advice above too : "Breathe in, breathe out, play on" :)
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Marin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2014, 03:54:57 pm »
0

I won against HarryPeteur in 3 games.
Here are the logs :

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140316/log.516d4542e4b082c74d7b70a8.1394995733555.txt

We both did a embassy/fv engine but I did it earlier and won the fv split which won me the game i think.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140316/log.516d4542e4b082c74d7b70a8.1394996870467.txt

A game with tournament, I thought the game was already lost when he got 2 province and me 0 but he get unlucky and I succeeded getting back into the game with my forge.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140316/log.516d4542e4b082c74d7b70a8.1394997921537.txt

I tried to play remodel with shettler which didn't worked at all... Thanks to that he builded a deck much better than mine but with high lucky draw I won the game.
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LCS213

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2014, 04:17:30 pm »
0

LCS213 defeats Impromptublue 3 games to 1

Game 1 vs Impromptublue:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516d2718e4b082c74d7b0fd3.1394661065950.txt
LCS213 34
Impromptublue 27

Game 2 vs. impromptublue (for whatever reason, the logfile didn't work and I don't have it.  But he won by the score below.
Impromptublue 31
LCS213  20

Game 3 vs. impromptublue
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.516d2718e4b082c74d7b0fd3.1394662879784.txt
Impromptublue 16
LCS213  19

Game 4 vs. impromptublue
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140316/log.516d2718e4b082c74d7b0fd3.1395000793713.txt
LCS213 38
Impromtublue 34
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Monsieur X

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2014, 05:49:32 pm »
0

I won against HarryPeteur in 3 games.
Here are the logs :

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140316/log.516d4542e4b082c74d7b70a8.1394995733555.txt

We both did a embassy/fv engine but I did it earlier and won the fv split which won me the game i think.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140316/log.516d4542e4b082c74d7b70a8.1394996870467.txt

A game with tournament, I thought the game was already lost when he got 2 province and me 0 but he get unlucky and I succeeded getting back into the game with my forge.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140316/log.516d4542e4b082c74d7b70a8.1394997921537.txt

I tried to play remodel with shettler which didn't worked at all... Thanks to that he builded a deck much better than mine but with high lucky draw I won the game.

When i saw your logs, i noticed Marin you were always first player vs Harrypeteur.  rigth or wrong?   :o
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hsiale

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2014, 08:14:57 pm »
0

hsiale 3-1 2,71828...

I logged in to play straight after spending 8 hours travelling (first on a train, then an hour driving in awful weather) so I was a bit tired. This was probably the reason why I sticked to simple plans during the games.




Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Haven, Stonemason, Advisor, Moneylender, Contraband, Ill-Gotten Gains, Market, Merchant Ship, Tacticianhttp://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140316/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395011207543.txt
IGG mirror, he gets Moneylender and I don't. Curses end up split even and I manage to grab more VPs in the ending.



Code: [Select]
Familiar, Navigator, Nomad Camp, Sea Hag, Wandering Minstrel, Junk Dealer, Rebuild, Wharf, Border Village, Possessionhttp://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140316/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395011521778.txt
I go for Rebuild on a 3/4 opening on a board with Border Village/Wharf and Shelters. I guess I was tired enough to just turn the autopilot on once I saw Rebuild. Of course I got completely destroyed this game.



Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Embargo, Scrying Pool, Ironmonger, Remodel, Margrave, Mountebank, Outpost, Pillage, Hoardhttp://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140316/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395012135477.txt
We both go for Ironmonger into Mountebank. I get three Mountebanks, he gets two, mine collide a few times and I end up with 6 Curses. He buys some Margraves, I decide that my deck is too crappy to build any kind of engine so I grab a Hoard and start greening. I also get one Pillage at some moment and it does great work of killing one of his turns while Spoils and Gold from Hoard help me get more points during last turns.



Code: [Select]
Fishing Village, Storeroom, Spice Merchant, Walled Village, Golem, Catacombs, Laboratory, Saboteur, Stables, Forgehttp://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140316/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395013113570.txt
Most interesting game. Sticking to my "simple plans" mindset I go for Stables, ignoring trashing and adding a Saboteur into the mix (because why not, I have no other terminal and Stables cycle me fast so I should attack quite often). He builds an engine with Catacombs, Fishing Village, Laboratory and Storeroom, trashing some junk with Forge. With lots of extra actions available (two village piles and I'm completely not interested in getting any) I'm afraid he will add 2-3 Saboteurs, play them each turn and eat all of my deck. But luckily he gets just one Saboteur and it doesn't do a lot of damage before getting killed by the one I had. We both starts greening, his better deck gets more VPs, I have little buying power. But I still have strong cycling and get a second Saboteur when Duchies run out. Estates run out soon too, but there's no 3rd pile to empty quickly. My Saboteurs work wonders trashing 15 points from his deck and finally I manage to play enough Stables to get my 3 Silvers together with some Copper and buy last Province. I feel I was really lucky in this game.
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Marin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2014, 05:42:14 am »
0

You are right Monsieur X, I told him that we should "normally" change the beginner but he told me that he didn't really care, that's why we did it randomly every time and I get lucky to get first player every time... (I think he didn't know how to create a non ranked game with all card so we just did ranked games...)
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KingZog3

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2014, 10:37:46 am »
0

You are right Monsieur X, I told him that we should "normally" change the beginner but he told me that he didn't really care, that's why we did it randomly every time and I get lucky to get first player every time... (I think he didn't know how to create a non ranked game with all card so we just did ranked games...)

Just  click "non ranked." It will randomize with all the cards by default I think. Casual does that.
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Holger

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2014, 09:51:27 am »
0

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140316/log.50893139a2e67cff211cd7e5.1395011521778.txt
I go for Rebuild on a 3/4 opening on a board with Border Village/Wharf and Shelters. I guess I was tired enough to just turn the autopilot on once I saw Rebuild. Of course I got completely destroyed this game.

I think Rebuild could have stood a chance if you had not opened Nomad Camp (Navigator or Sea Hag should be better Rebuild supports, you don't really need the Rebuild on turn 2) and had not flooded your deck with Estates on T3/4 with a single Rebuild in the deck - this hurt your economy badly, preventing you from getting another Rebuild and Duchies fast. Wasting $5 on two Estates on turn 4 seems insane to me, you should have bought Duchy or Rebuild...
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