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Kirian

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GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« on: March 10, 2014, 09:50:55 am »
0

Post your logs and analysis here!
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Dunduks

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 04:57:17 pm »
0

Third time lucky.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394475422254.txt

Maybe the slowest coming engine ever - I didn't want treasure, but turn 6 Market square is without comments and I think after opponent embargoed Bridges I shouldn't buy Great hall. I think simple BM+Margrave should be better as such engine building.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394476361096.txt

Again deck where is no need for treasure but I didn't buy Loan even seeing as opponent buys it. And I buy silver on turn 4. I think I somewhere missed one correct Stonemason buy but it didn't matter.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394478185223.txt

Horn of Plenty isn't my cup of tea but I was lucky (and I thought little bit more about drawing) with my turn 16.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394479241929.txt

Maybe just Hunting party + Courtyard was best move but I wanted something fancy. Good luck. And turn 11 Duchy didn't help at all.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394479983765.txt

I think I shouldn't went for Duchies (turn 16) but I wasn't sure I can regularly buy Provinces while opponent buys Duchies and three piling and I also thought that I have some breathing space with Nobles points.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1394481041915.txt

At turn 4 I thought I was too far behind so I tried desperate measures (and little provocation) with Rats. Opponent followed me to Rats and killed his economy.

So six games, much fun and some (lucky) nail biting.







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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 06:20:57 pm »
+2

soulnet 4 - 2 Geronimoo

This was a horrible series. I felt like we both play mostly bad. Hopefully for both we will improve for the rest of the tournament. I will post some additional comments later.

EDIT (twice): all games commented.

game 1: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394481149815.txt
Poor House, Oracle, Woodcutter, Marauder, Taxman, Knights, Pillage, Royal Seal, Fairgrounds, King's Court
The presence of both Ruins and Knights makes Fairgrounds extra-strong. However, so much attacking and especially junking will make an engine extremely unfeasible, especially with KCs goodness but unreliability and the 3-piling menace that Ruins+Knights+Fairgrounds represent. Also, a slogger can start pounding on Fairgrounds early and an engine player cannot delay its greening to avoid the opponent getting 8 VP Fairgrounds. Getting lots of Knights is also not a nice way to get an engine rolling, especially since the best Knights for engines (non-terminal and trashing) end up being really close to the bottom. So, we both go for some sort of sloggy/BM Fairgrounds deck. I pound on Fairgrounds early anticipating a battle for the split, but his early Knighting proves to be better. However, he (I think incorrectly) gives up on the Knights early instead of going after all of them and gets Gold and Province, so I manage to catch up with Knights. We split the Fairgrounds 4/3 (my early one gets trashed by Knights, which I should have anticipated). I do not see a strong reason why I won. I think even with mistakes on both sides, I may have identified the strategy better, but otherwise, I have only shuffle luck to thank.1-0

game 2: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130608/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1370702477264.txt
Pearl Diver, Forager, Great Hall, Caravan, JackOfAllTrades, Treasure Map, Apprentice, Graverobber, Mystic, Tribute
We both go Forager/Jack. He gets the lucky match and I get a bit unlucky draws, and same in the second shuffle so I find myself a lot behind. I get a second Forager to try to trash down and connect TMs to recover, but it never comes together so I start getting Apprentice and later Graverobber to try to gamble into lucky draws (probably not concentrating enough due to giving myself low odds) for a come back, but it never happens. Geronimoo's deck shows that it can take the heavy greening without a hinch (great Silver flooding, and probably Geronimoo is at its best with this kind of tactical play as well), so he gets it easily.1-1

game 3: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394482840019.txt
Trade Route, Philosopher's Stone, Baron, Moneylender, Remodel, Golem, Horn of Plenty, Margrave, Treasury, Harem
Another horrible board. Golem is the only pseudovillage, and there is also not good trashing nor good payload (HoP is difficult). I open Moneylender and he opens Remodel, but ¿Surprisingly? he can get to $6 easier than me, while I am stuck at 5 for a loooong time. After that, the Golds snowball him into winning the game. I think I dropped the ball getting HoP after too many $5s (felt it would give me some Silvers and may help with Duchy dancing, and also it may get me some lucky extra Gold with Copper+Silver+Gold+Harem+Margrave+HoP), but it really never works out.1-2

game 4: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394484109577.txt
Transmute, Native Village, Fishing Village, Wishing Well, Feodum, Marauder, Procession, Journeyman, Fairgrounds, Grand Market
Another ruins + Fairgrounds. He goes for the money slog, getting GMs. I go for some kind of hybrid, get Procession to clear out some ruins and get Journeyman into Grand Market going. It is hard, but it ends up coming together at the end for me. It is close, and I feel like I get luckier in the endgame (would not be really surprising if I lost, but I also think my deck was better than his. I was certainly not confident for quite a while, I feel I underrate my decks when I find myself building and the opponent is greening easily. I also felt a bit, for the second time, that Geronimoo did not plan for Fairgrounds properly, and that may have been the real difference.2-2

game 5: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394485132819.txt
Native Village, Develop, Horse Traders, Noble Brigand, Thief, Bazaar, Inn, Soothsayer, Vault, Harem
Another awful game. This one I felt we both played randomly. I cannot even say why I won. I think skipping Soothsayer and getting HT to React and trash some Curses with Develop was correct on my part, because Soothsayer in this kind of awful BM deck is really slow in Cursing, and HT'd Soothsayer attack accelerates you a lot. Plus, HT and Vault overcome slow junking without much trouble. I won this one handily, although I have no idea why.3-2

game 6: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140310/log.505da8ce51c359e6597efefa.1394485925159.txt
Shanty Town, Familiar, Coppersmith, JackOfAllTrades, Procession, Spy, Counting House, Festival, Adventurer, Goons
We both go for Familiar, but have bad luck with it. He opens 5/2 but I am stuck with $2P, so the playfield evens out. Geronimoo goes into DoubleJack + Goons slog, I guess because he found himself behind in the Familiar race. I get a single Jack because I foresee no way an engine will come together without draw, and start pounding on Festivals on $5 and Goons on $6 to Goons-slog. I think I win due to getting a lot more Goons than him, but also, hi gets an unlucky misclick in the endgame trashing a Goons instead of playing it (damn Goko) which gives me the way to end by depleting the Curses in the final turn.4-2
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 11:10:40 am by soulnet »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 08:01:27 pm »
+2

BraveBear defeats scott_pilgrim, 3-1

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394490688071.txt

This is an obvious Storeroom-Tunnel board, with Warehouse to sweeten the combo even more.  Unfortunately, my deck decided that I will play Merchant Ship-BM, as I am unable to get almost any $3 or $4 hands (and only one $5 hand).  During the first seven turns, I draw Estate/Estate/Estate/Copper/Copper three times, and every time I hit $6 I feel like it's silly not to get Gold.  I'm actually not sure if I played this right.  Should I have gone for the combo, or adapted to my draws?  I think I'm fighting a losing battle either way.  He goes for Treasuries later which I don't really understand, but he definitely has it with the combo anyway.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394492234400.txt

I think this is literally the most painful game of Dominion I've ever played.  I get a $5/$2 opening which should be great on a Cultist board.  He opens double Ambassador.  I pick up an Ambassador, but he manages to thin quickly and hits me really hard with Estates.  Later on I figure my only shot at winning is to take advantage of the 295,218 Estates he's given me and I try to pile Estates, but once he gets a couple of Province hands I know I'm doomed.  I resign while swimming through a deck of 9 Estates, 9 Ruins, 9 Coppers, and 9 "good" cards.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394493281079.txt

There's a lot of power cards on this board: Mountebank, Counterfeit, Forager, Rabble, and Torturer, and we have Festival as a village.  I open Forager/Silver which may have been a mistake, as I miss $5 on my second shuffle, but he doesn't punish me for it, as he gets Counterfeit rather than Mountebank.  I get some Rabbles for draw, but they definitely should have been Torturers.  I was thinking that Mountebank would be handing out Curses anyway, and Rabbles would be important after we start greening, but we never really start greening because piles are low so the Rabbles are effectively Smithies for most of the game.  I pick up a couple Graverobbers later on hoping to turn my $5's into Provinces, which I do once at the very end.  I end the game on three piles with the billions of buys my Festivals and Foragers are giving me.

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394494726908.txt

We both go for the same general plan: use Chapel to thin, get Scrying Pool(s), and then Mystics, hoping to Province every turn.  With no +buy and no villages there's not much else to do, but the discard attacks make this faster than BM I think.  The key difference between our decks is that I go for Militia, while he skips it in favor of getting his draw going faster.  He beats me buy a turn; I probably made the wrong play breaking PPR at the end, since I think my deck had better longevity than his since I had more SP's.


Thanks again for the games, BraveBear!  Good luck in future rounds!
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BraveBear

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 08:37:20 pm »
+1

BraveBear defeats scott_pilgrim, 3-1

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394490688071.txt

This is an obvious Storeroom-Tunnel board, with Warehouse to sweeten the combo even more.  Unfortunately, my deck decided that I will play Merchant Ship-BM, as I am unable to get almost any $3 or $4 hands (and only one $5 hand).  During the first seven turns, I draw Estate/Estate/Estate/Copper/Copper three times, and every time I hit $6 I feel like it's silly not to get Gold.  I'm actually not sure if I played this right.  Should I have gone for the combo, or adapted to my draws?  I think I'm fighting a losing battle either way.  He goes for Treasuries later which I don't really understand, but he definitely has it with the combo anyway.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394492234400.txt

I think this is literally the most painful game of Dominion I've ever played.  I get a $5/$2 opening which should be great on a Cultist board.  He opens double Ambassador.  I pick up an Ambassador, but he manages to thin quickly and hits me really hard with Estates.  Later on I figure my only shot at winning is to take advantage of the 295,218 Estates he's given me and I try to pile Estates, but once he gets a couple of Province hands I know I'm doomed.  I resign while swimming through a deck of 9 Estates, 9 Ruins, 9 Coppers, and 9 "good" cards.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394493281079.txt

There's a lot of power cards on this board: Mountebank, Counterfeit, Forager, Rabble, and Torturer, and we have Festival as a village.  I open Forager/Silver which may have been a mistake, as I miss $5 on my second shuffle, but he doesn't punish me for it, as he gets Counterfeit rather than Mountebank.  I get some Rabbles for draw, but they definitely should have been Torturers.  I was thinking that Mountebank would be handing out Curses anyway, and Rabbles would be important after we start greening, but we never really start greening because piles are low so the Rabbles are effectively Smithies for most of the game.  I pick up a couple Graverobbers later on hoping to turn my $5's into Provinces, which I do once at the very end.  I end the game on three piles with the billions of buys my Festivals and Foragers are giving me.

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.516e333ee4b082c74d7d297e.1394494726908.txt

We both go for the same general plan: use Chapel to thin, get Scrying Pool(s), and then Mystics, hoping to Province every turn.  With no +buy and no villages there's not much else to do, but the discard attacks make this faster than BM I think.  The key difference between our decks is that I go for Militia, while he skips it in favor of getting his draw going faster.  He beats me buy a turn; I probably made the wrong play breaking PPR at the end, since I think my deck had better longevity than his since I had more SP's.


Thanks again for the games, BraveBear!  Good luck in future rounds!


Game 1
I get fortunate with 4/3.  I really think you should have gone haggler on this board, but I think it was an uphill climb with 5/2.  I liked my treasury buys.  I was hitting 6 and 7 a lot because of the 4 and 3 card hands that the warehouses and storerooms were leaving me. 

Game 2
I had hands of CCCEAmb on turns 3 and 4.

Game 3
I thought I needed counterfeit for the extra trashing but you are right MB would have been a whole lot better.  You curse me first and get your rabbles going good while I buy another MB which never lets met draw well and I fall behind.

Game 4
Chapel mystics with only one SP, and for some odd reason an urchin that I never trash.  This one comes down to the wire.

Thanks for the games scott_pilgrim!



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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 10:57:20 pm »
+2

florrat defeats markusin 3.5-1.5

Will update with videos once they finish uploading

Game 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394492634655.txt



This Colony game had a lot of cards that you'd want at the $4 and $5 price point in addition to Peddler. I was hoping that getting a second Workshop would make my deck stronger in the long run, but I think it's hampering of my ability to get Provinces shows that it was a mistake. My opponent ends up getting all the prizes and some Duchies too, but I still liked my chances for most of the game and it was pretty enjoyable in the end.

florrat   1 - markusin   0 

Game 2:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394493886103.txt



The first of what would end up being many games that included Tactician. I pounded the Minion pile hard, while my opponent gobbled up the Conspirators with Ironworks. I felt like the Conspirators were going to be weak here without lots of Minions due to the lack of trashing, so I made sure to get the Minions first before trying the fancy stuff with Tactician. My opponent was starting to make a Double Tactician deck work, but it kinda fizzled once the second Tactician didn't get drawn. At the end, my opponent had the choice to either play it safe and tie or play for the win with a drawing Minion.

florrat 1.5 - markusin 0.5

Game 3:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394495089873.txt



Normally, Apprentice has to wreck your deck a bit to give you powerful draw. That's not necessarily the case when Market Square is in the picture. Play Apprentice -> Trash Gold -> discard Market Squares -> gain Golds -> Draw the Golds and the Market Squares. I chose to take a Warehouse over an extra Market Square early, and ended up wishing I had more than 3 buys to use. I did have the early lead though, which gives you the edge when your deck has a bunch of Apprentices. Tactician was there too, but neither of us really cared.

florrat 1.5 - markusin 1.5

Game 4:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394496176300.txt

I'm not uploading the video for this one. It seems the sensitivity of my microphone is too high. My sister came over with her friend, our dog went crazy, and you can hear all the commotion at about the same volume as my own commentary. I was only trying to be a bit quieter.

I was prepared for the Sea Hag slog, with Tactician to help spike some good cards and with hopes that Beggar can give me Silver. My opponent goes for University, which confused me at first. It seems that, in a slog like this, getting lots of Islands can actually work out as a deck thinner. I mostly went straight for treasure and Tactician.

florrat 2.5 - markusin 1.5

Game 5:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.510876c7e4b0ac7a7a0bb212.1394497164125.txt

Again no video here, for the same reasons as game 4. In fact, the conversation my sister was having with her friend was even more audible.

This was a Cultist board, but Hermit, Stonemason, and Monument spiced it up a bit. With neither of us having a 5/2 opening, this was definitely not one of those hopelessly one-sided Cultist matches. I was confident in my chances of winning after seeing the results of my first Madman go off, but somehow my opponent was getting a bunch of Provinces while I found myself with a bunch of terminal collisions. Looking at the log, my opponent had slightly better money density it seems.

florrat 3.5 - markusin 1.5

Thanks for the games florrat, and best of luck for the rest of the competition.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:20:23 pm by markusin »
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florrat

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 01:44:49 am »
+2

My comments on my game vs markusin (for logs see previous post). Thanks for uploading the videos. It is very informative to see the viewpoint of my opponent.

Game 1: Tournament game with everything except trashing. Because of this I skip Advisor. I think Advisor is a little overused. I really don't like it when there is no trashing. On average, at least one of the drawn cards will be "junk", especially with Followers junking. Okay, you might get a Copper with some other card, but at the HUGE cost of discarding a lot of good cards. This is less true for Envoy, because you're just discarding 1/5 cards instead of 1/3.
You were very unlucky not hitting 8. You reached 7 like 5 times before you hit 8? That hurts.
Responding to a comment that "Followers is not that good here because there is no trashing": Followers is helped by the lack of trashing! If there is strong trashing, you can trash curses, while I have to trash estates to keep my deck clean. So Followers here is +2VP +2 Cards, you discard down to 3 (and we both gain a junk card) which is incredibly strong.
(I missed the double Province opportunity tun 18)

Game 2: This was pretty much me going for Conspirator and you going for Minions, both with double tactician (me a little earlier than markusin). But yeah, it's hard to find your second tactician reliably without any trashing. In the turn I fuzzed (turn 14) you discarded my tactician, so I had the choice to trigger the reshuffle with a small chance of finding the 2nd tactician, or just play next turn with all my good cards reshuffled in the deck.
This was a nice game, very close and intense!

Game 3: Apprentice + Market Square is very strong. A warehouse was useful to line them up, but I think you didn't focus enough on those two key cards (opening Warehouse and buying Baker). You should have gained more of both of them. I'm not even sure about our Rogues, they could have been Apprentices, which also gain gold (and maybe faster than Rogue).
@Turn 5 "This is not the ideal hand": well, you've seen your Apprentice three times by turn 5, and lined up with your MS you bought on turn 3 twice already, that's very close to ideal :-) But I can't complain as well with my T5 2*gold gain.
And yeah, leaving just 3 Provinces in the supply was too risky, That was a mistake (on the other hand, if you got 3 Provinces that turn I was behind 3 Provinces anyway, which is pretty hard to make up for with Duchies).

Game 4: Sea Hag slog. I was lucky in the beginning to win the curse split. And yeah, University was pretty nice to gain a lot of islands (and you shouldn't have played Sea Hag when the Curses were out, but you probably figured that out for yourself).

Game 5: Cultist board, but with some decent trashing in the form of Hermit. My turn 5 Gold should probably have been a Cultist, but I was lucky enough to reach 7 next turn for Stonemason+2*Cultist. We basically did an exact mirror. Looking at the log, at almost every stage our decks were comparable. I guess I was just lucky to hit exactly 8 on turns 16-18.

Thanks for the games. They were very interesting!

PS: Have you tried the sidebar chat of the Salvager Extension? I recommend it!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 01:46:43 am by florrat »
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 01:57:05 am »
0

Round 3 vs. MJD

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1394504606982.txt

1-0
This game was a long slog involving Marauder.  I won it due to my Knight hitting a Duchy and then my opponent not realizing he could buy the last Ruin to win the game.  I should have lost.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1394505564751.txt

2-0
Cartographer/Conspirator/Market engine.  I think it worked pretty well for me.  I opened Mandarin to hit $5 multiple times early on.   Cartographer doesn't care too much about the extra Copper, so I figured I could go light on trashing.  You could say Count is better generally, but I'm not so sure here.  Well, I've been wrong before and will be again.  I got one double Province turn, which was pretty surprising to me.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140310/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1394506727045.txt

3-0
I ignore Potion and go for a more traditional engine using Altar while he takes the Potion.  Both paths seem OK, but I think the trashing from Altar is superior in the long run.  The results suggest this.  On 5/2, Catacombs seems perfectly logical to me since I want Altar so badly, but there is a case for other openings.  I misplay several turns, but I was ahead by quite a bit and it did not matter so much.  In the end, MJD's engine has no +gain or buy, so I'm able to stay ahead of it pretty much indefinitely.

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markusin

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 02:46:53 am »
0

Thanks for the comments florrat. Yeah, I think I learned a lesson after each game.

I know about the sidebar chat, and I actually prefer the goko chat. The problem with the sidebar chat is that I'll rarely notice it while I'm focused on the game. If you say something, I want to be notified. The sidebar chat doesn't provide this (and neither does the chat of Isotropic Innovation).

Game 3 I agree that I didn't focus on the key cards enough, which in this case was just Market Square and Apprentice. Given the presence of Market Square, I don't think Rogue was necessary or helpful.

Edit: What I mentioned about followers is more true when one player has a reliable engine going and the player with Followers doesn't. Of course, I didn't have a reliable engine by any means...due to the Followers for one thing.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:48:57 am by markusin »
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gamesou

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 05:21:18 pm »
0

Gamesou - SquisherX [Duane Menezes] 3.5 - 0.5

Game 1 : draw 33-33
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394566563789.txt

I probably bought too many terminals in the early game and get a deck much worse than his. SquisherX has an awful misclick on turn 17 where he draws his deck but forgets to play his $20 money !!!!! Despite of this he is still ahead, but choices to draw while the endgame was slightly favorable to him in my opinion.

Game 2 : gamesou 58-55
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394568314853.txt

We go for Taxman into Border Village/Margrave/Cartographer on a Colony board. I added Ghost Ship although they are kind of nullified by Cartographers. Again he has a much better deck but triggers a reshuffle on turn 18 which leads to several turns with bad hands, resulting in an unexpected and lucky win for me.

Game 3 : gamesou 30-27
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394568982702.txt

We both go for Golem/Mountebank for heavy junking. With 5/2 I open Mountebank/- (no Pearl Diver please), saving the Baker coin with the idea to secure $4P (alas I got $1P!). The game is quite even. With Remodel & Caravan on the board, I like the flexibility of Bands of Misfits which eventually remodel province into province for the win.

Game 4 : gamesou 30-29
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394570602868.txt

Probably the most interesting board. I really would like to see top players play this board ! Good trashing with Steward, Quarry for money and a possibility to set up a pseudo-pin with Village/Graverobber/Pillage/Council Room. I realized this a bit too late, and Torturer somehow complicates the situation. Even once Curses were out the discarding option from Torturer was a way to protect from Pillage ! My engine is not very functional but having the opponent missing a few key turns is enough to come back. Again a tricky endgame where Graverobber is useful.

Thanks to SquisherX for these games ! All of them where very close !
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:23:21 pm by gamesou »
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JOG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 05:59:50 pm »
0

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394568485382.txt
beggar, forager, loan, lookout, death cart, remake, treasure map, band of misfits, haggler, king's court

There's king's court with haggler or death cart, forager for buy, and good trashing with remake and forager.  But, there's no draw at all. I go for the KC plan hoping to trash down, get a few KCs, hagglers, and then band of misfits.  KC with haggler is probably a province, KC with misfits as death cart, and a forager is double province.  Opponent goes for a money based strategy, with no KCs.  I get lucky on my last turn, down by 7, when I'm able to  use misfits to remake KC into last province and remake into duchy.  Not sure which strategy was better here, but I'm thinking his was.  My draws overall were pretty good and KC always had a target.  Other option here might have been remake/forager open into treasure maps.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394570382089.txt
stonemason, apothecary, sage, coppersmith, cutpurse, herald, remake, scout, taxman, rogue

We both go for similar strategies- apothecaries, then heralds, with remakes, sages, and rogues as support.  Apothecaries and heralds are great together.  I don't think either of us used stonemason very well. I should have been going for 4 and potion early for double apothecary instead of trying to set up my next turn.  I thought I could end it on turn 13 when it was tied with 2 apothecaries and 2 sages left (no heralds left).  Plan was to stonemason cutpurse into last 2 sages, then remake a 4 cost into a duchy and buy last 2 apothecaries with stonemason.  Only problem was I didn't have a 4 cost left to remake.  I probably misplayed this turn and there was a win.  He's able to even up points on the next turn.  Then it just comes down to who has a big turn first and is able to end it on piles.  Ends up being me when I remake 2 scouts into the last 2 duchies.  Could have gone either way.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140311/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394571331473.txt
vineyard, hamlet, pearl diver, monument, scavenger, throne room, explorer, festival, mandarin, expand

Vineyard rush has to be the best strategy here.  We both open scavenger silver and go for it.  My scavenger draws were pretty amazing.  I play my only scavenger on turns 3, 4, 5, and 6.  Scavenger plays meant I was able to pick up more festivals, so I'm able to buy more hamlets and pearl divers later.  We split vineyard's 4-4 but I have slightly more actions, so win 27-24.


I was somewhat lucky in all 3 of these games.  It shouldn't have been a 3-0 match.  Thanks for games Yed.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 06:30:34 pm »
0

pst – mail-mi 3–0

Game 1:
Feodum, Jack of all Trades, Mining Village, Monument, Procession, Knights, Royal Seal, Soothsayer, Stash, Harem.

We both open Silver/Jack and get a lot of our points from Feodum. Both buy Soothsayers with our first fives, and then also some Knights.

Game 2:
Colony game with Apothecary, Doctor, Baron, Militia, Smithy, Apprentice, Embassy, Outpost, Treasury, Venture

We both open Militia/Silver. I buy Apprentice with my first five, and then overpays for a Doctor with the next one. Because of bad shuffle luck mail-mi doesn't get his first five until turn 7, also buying an Apprentice.

I thought I was going to use several high-value Ventures, but I actually only bought one, because I could so often buy Platina and then Colonies after doctoring most of my Coppers.

Game 3:
Transmute, Haven (bane), Lighthouse, Cutpurse, Fortress, Marauder, Pirate Ship, Procession, Young Witch, Saboteur, Trading Post

I open Lighthouse/Young Witch and mail-mi opens Lighthouse/Marauder and we both get Trading Post with our first fives. Even though there are good defences we attack a lot. I even got a couple of Saboteurs (because of a lack of interesting fives) and managed to get through the defences several times with them.

Thanks for the games!
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 07:16:08 pm »
+1

hdu88 vs PitrPicko

Game 1
Pitr gets the following sequence of turns:
Turn 1: Buy Doctor, trash two Estates
Turn 2: Redraw Doctor, trash three Coppers, buy Swindler
Turn 3: Swindle a Copper, buy Goons

0-1

Game 2
Now it's my turn to be a lucksack. After Pitr gets an early lead on the Possessions, I end up getting all of my good hands whenever I'm not possessed. Some interesting notes about this game:
-My second Potion was probably incorrect. Not sure what to buy with $4 though.
-Ill-Gotten Gains can only give $1 on a Possession turn. I still wanted the extra Coppers for Apothecary, but I'm not sure if that's correct.
-Buying Ill-Gotten Gains on a Possession turn gives you the Curse as well, as Pitr found out.
-There was one turn where Pitr could have set up my turn so that I didn't have a Possession in hand, but he chose to let me have it instead. After some deliberation, I decided to not play the Possession. He ended up having $3 and Possession, so that was probably incorrect on my part. I end up getting rewarded for it anyway.

1-1

Game 3
Rebuild board with Militia and Wandering Minstrel. Wandering Minstrel lets you cycle super quickly, but makes it harder to hit $5. I think I got one too many and ended up paying for it.

1-2

Game 4
Cultist and Goons. Salvager is slow trashing, Caravan is slow draw, and Bandit Camp is a village that junks your engine, but this is a Goons board so those should be good enough. Pitr goes for money and loses.

2-2

Game 5
Big Money with Moneylender and Warehouse. I buy Apprentice on Turn 6 because it's good in the endgame, but in retrospect I think Salvager is better because it's the only source of +buy. Apprentice gives more explosive turns than Salvager, but there's no point in having $13 or $16 if you only have 1 buy. My final hand was Apprentice Gold Gold Copper Copper which let me buy the last Province to tie the game, but Salvager Gold Gold Copper Copper would let me win by 1.

2.5-2.5

Game 6
Finally, a proper Goons engine. Pitr has trouble connecting his pieces together. Combined with my first-turn advantage with Marauder this gives me an easy win.

3.5-2.5
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 10:10:36 pm »
+1

Edit 1: Link to the Twitch stream -- I might not get to cutting the individual games for a bit. I've added comments on the games too.

Logs for my match against AI. I'll write stuff about it and edit this post but it might be a bit. I'm really frustrated about this match.

1. AH first
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1394587336723.txt

I'm notoriously bad at games like this, I just can't build Village/Draw engines. I've even started a topic about it but the discussion didn't really go in this direction, which is really where my weakness lies. AI was clearly able to put this engine together and he did some different things than I did, but I just can't understand what I could have done better here. Ironworks is so good and I feel like my opening is supposed to be better, is that why I was so far behind? I have a really hard time accepting the idea that SM+two $4 villages is a better way to get villages than IW, especially because SM is the only trashing.

People are going to give me crap for allowing the SM 3-pile ending. I'm aware that it was a dangerous play and if he had another big turn and I didn't those components that I still desperately needed that I was likely to lose anyways. I assert that the game was already over by that point and focusing on that is not going to improve this weakness in my game. How did I get in such a bad position? Why am I not able to build these types of engines effectively? This game is very frustrating for me because I know I'm not doing it well, but I can't look back on it and point to decisions that I made and know that was my mistake.


2. AI first
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1394588357778.txt

This game. You can hear my commentary throughout the game, I really should have won this game, I'm quite convinced of it. Is there anything I could have done better here? I really really really don't think so. I mean given the way my draws went, clearly I would have been better off if my opening Taxman was a Silver, but it's basically going to take simulation data to convince me that opening double Silver into Catacombs/BM is better than opening Taxman/Silver into Catacombs/BM. Granted, I was assuming at that point he wasn't going to build this engine, so the Taxman attack would be slightly more effective. Maybe opening Silver/Silver into BoM-as-Taxman/Catacombs/BM is better? I'm still not quite convinced of it.

I always say that you make your own shuffle luck. The point of that is exactly for games like this because I feel like I played a better strategy and still lost, but I just need to take a hard look at my play and find what I could have done better instead. I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

By the end of this game, I was extremely frustrated; before seeing the third kingdom I could have told you I would lose that game. I was really hoping to put up a good fight this match, I've been playing really well recently and it's always been a dream of mine to be able to break into the level where I'm not still losing 90% or more of my games against people like AI and I wasn't getting there.


3. AI first
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140311/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1394589371637.txt

Rebuild mirror from second seat against the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild. My chances of victory here are 0%. With two Duchies left I buy an Estate that I shouldn't have, and then I fail to realize that AI still has a starting Estate left in his deck, so I know precisely why I lost this game, and I must say that AI actually walked me through this stuff after the match via PM. After sleeping, I'm really glad this game happened because how many times do you get the chance to play a Rebuild mirror with the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild, get crushed, and have him tell you exactly how? These kinds of opportunities are exactly why I play in these tournaments so I'm really grateful for that. I just have to try and separate this experience from the other two games in this match, because I feel entirely different about them.

Now in the chat people were discussing the Minion engine on this board with lots of good support. They said that the engine should win almost unanimously and we talked about it after the match for a bit. Here's the thing: I don't think the engine is strong enough against Rebuild. They say that Minion counters Rebuild, like hard counters and I have a lot of trouble seeing how a Minion attack can shut down Rebuild enough to win this game. I'm actually very interested in playing this kingdom again, testing out the engine vs. Rebuild/Chancellor/CSM.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:25:20 am by AdamH »
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 11:39:59 am »
0

I've played two good Japenese players so far in three matches. This one was against nnn.

Game 1 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394633456607.txt
I don't like my 5-2 opening and come up with this entirely false plan of filling the decks with treasure and using some urchins to prevent my opponent from making a governor draw-mercenary discard engine. Either I still don't understand this game and/or I'm lucky.
Game 2 - no log but a double tactician plaza/poor house game where my opponent plays fine and I buy a gold instead of a tactician by clicking badly, so no complaints from me here
Game 3 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394635646959.txt
Dodgy black market kingdom where I'm still half asleep and only realize that my opponent has a nice king's-court rebuild thing once it has almost won the game.
Game 4 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394636451003.txt
Again I don't like my 5/2 start and I never seem to get started but my opponent played it fine for a big herald engine.
Game 5 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394636990183.txt
This is a big combo kingdom where I feel behind when I don't get the 5/2 this time but I'm ahead once my opponent's chapel is lost.  There's a nice king's court-feast in the middle that lets me monopolize the highways and then I only have to worry about a crazy 3 pile finish for my opponent (who actually has too many silvers to be a threat).
Game 6- again no log but I squeak a 2 point win with farmland+gold on the last turn. With a series of 7 coin hands I ended up playing moat+gold, of all things, against an opponent who went through the upgrades. Who says treasure decks are dead?
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EgorK

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 12:33:54 pm »
+1

EgorK - Burning Scull 3-3

EgorK - Burning Scull 24:32 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394636349911.txt

BM+Steward, my opponent correctly chooses Council Room for support while I opt for treasuries

Burning Scull - EgorK 55:41 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394636863323.txt

Double Jack. We both took rats detour, which probably was not corect

Burning Scull - EgorK 24:24 (EgorK wins by number of turns) http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394637426860.txt

My opponent won baker split, but probably should start buying provinces one turn earlier - that gold was not really needed

EgorK - Burning Scull 12:6 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394638334562.txt

Crazy game with knights, minions, young witch and fairgrounds

EgorK - Burning Scull 60:48 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394639998377.txt

We both opt for engine with Bazaar, Storeroom, watchtower and peddlers. On my penultimate turn I made mistake of leaving 3 colonies. My opponent counterfeited platinum and ended up with 32 coins

Burning Scull - EgorK 44:36 http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140312/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1394640802223.txt

Hunting grounds BM with trimmed decks. I should've buy penultimate province with the lead, but was afraid of him graverobbing his hunting grounds

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hsiale

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 01:00:40 pm »
+2

Game 2 - no log but a double tactician plaza/poor house game
Game 6- again no log but I squeak a 2 point win with farmland+gold on the last turn
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394634351119.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140312/log.506333f0a2e62dfc41a45a88.1394637459897.txt
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 02:06:42 pm »
+2

Now in the chat people were discussing the Minion engine on this board with lots of good support. They said that the engine should win almost unanimously and we talked about it after the match for a bit. Here's the thing: I don't think the engine is strong enough against Rebuild. They say that Minion counters Rebuild, like hard counters and I have a lot of trouble seeing how a Minion attack can shut down Rebuild enough to win this game. I'm actually very interested in playing this kingdom again, testing out the engine vs. Rebuild/Chancellor/CSM.

I'm not sure what conditions must be satisfied for something to be a hard counter so I prefer not to use such terminology, but Minion alone definitely makes Rebuild alot weaker: past the early game you'll be playing 4-card hands every turn, making it alot harder to hit 5, and these 4- instead of 5-card turns also ensure that you'll see your Rebuilds 20% less often, which by itself (irrespective of the decreased chance of hitting 5) is enough to prolong the game by an average of 3-4 turns or so.

Now I don't think that Minion alone would necessarily beat Rebuild (I'm confident it does not), but there's not just an ordinary Minion stack here but in fact a really powerful engine with such awesome supplements as Junk Dealer, Fishing Village and Candlestick Maker.

I actually told the same thing to the guy who wrote the freakin' article on Rebuild. His response:

Good point regarding the Minion engine.  Somehow I saw all of those cards individually, considered the Minion engine, and failed to realize how strong it is.  It's pretty obvious once you just name those four cards together.  What's extra funny is that I remember giving you pretty much the same advice a year ago after you'd sent me a game you'd played with PitrPicko.  Though in that case I think it was FV, Lib, and something else for +buy. :D

If you're still not convinced I'm happy to play the game with you later tonight. I'm away for the next 4-5 hours or so but should be free after that.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:18 pm »
+1



2. AI first


This game. You can hear my commentary throughout the game, I really should have won this game, I'm quite convinced of it. Is there anything I could have done better here? I really really really don't think so. I mean given the way my draws went, clearly I would have been better off if my opening Taxman was a Silver, but it's basically going to take simulation data to convince me that opening double Silver into Catacombs/BM is better than opening Taxman/Silver into Catacombs/BM. Granted, I was assuming at that point he wasn't going to build this engine, so the Taxman attack would be slightly more effective. Maybe opening Silver/Silver into BoM-as-Taxman/Catacombs/BM is better? I'm still not quite convinced of it.

I always say that you make your own shuffle luck. The point of that is exactly for games like this because I feel like I played a better strategy and still lost, but I just need to take a hard look at my play and find what I could have done better instead. I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

By the end of this game, I was extremely frustrated; before seeing the third kingdom I could have told you I would lose that game. I was really hoping to put up a good fight this match, I've been playing really well recently and it's always been a dream of mine to be able to break into the level where I'm not still losing 90% or more of my games against people like AI and I wasn't getting there.

This basically comes down to the question: Can Engines that can only gain a single Province every turn win against a solid BM stragety? And the answer is yes, sometimes they can. A long time ago most likely every dominion fan in this forum read the very entertaining and educating article about the Base-Set Kingdom "The first game" and there was an easy simulation comparing a village-smithy only engine to straight Smithy BM. Obviously it loses to it most of the time but the average time to get to 4 Provinces was not that much longer if i remember correctly between 1 and 2 turns. In Other words if the village smithy player gets quite lucky he will win.
If we look at this board now the village-draw engine is a lot stronger than the one in the base set. A single village doesnt help a BM deck but a single plaza does comparable to for example haven. And Catacombs is much better for a BM-like deck than a Smithy.
Yes, costing 5 instead of 4 is a big difference in most cases, but as BM key costs are 3 and 6 so it's not that big of a deal. And the cointoken makes this a LOT better than smithy-village-money.
As long as you buy gold on 6 and silver on 3 it should still stay a decent BM strategy and you have the coin tokens to smooth out your buys.
So i dont think there will be a huge advantage for any of the two strats over the other here.
Actually my personal opinion is that a BM with plazas on 4 and somtimes on 5 and two or three Librarys might even be a little better than both of those but maybe that's just personal preference.

Looking at game 3 i have to agree 100% with SCSN and i wanted to bring up exactly those points aswell (even though i think just the 20% less often rebuild in the later game will only prolong the game by about 2 turns instead of 3-4) before i realized someone posted exactly that while i was writing on this post :)
When i watched that game i was sure the minion engine with such good support would beat rebuild straight away.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:19:49 pm by MarkowKette »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:36 pm »
+1

If you're still not convinced I'm happy to play the game with you later tonight. I'm away for the next 4-5 hours or so but should be free after that.

There's a chance I'll have time later tonight. I'll PM you or something and/or stream it if that's the case, but this week sort of exploded on me so that may not happen.

Also, for science we should both play the engine side and both play the rebuild side, because when you win playing both sides we've only shown that you're a better player than me, which we already know.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 02:19:08 pm »
0

This basically comes down to the question: Can Engines that can only gain a single Province every turn win against a solid BM stragety? And the answer is yes, sometimes they can. A long time ago most likely every dominion fan in this forum read the very entertaining and educating article about the Base-Set Kingdom "The first game" and there was an easy simulation comparing a village-smithy only engine to straight Smithy BM. Obviously it loses to it most of the time but the average time to get to 4 Provinces was not that much longer if i remember correctly between 1 and 2 turns. In Other words if the village smithy player gets quite lucky he will win.

True, but the engine chokes much harder on the green, yes? So with this in mind I went for Duchies a little aggressively, forcing the game longer, which is supposed to increase my chances. Is this wrong?

If we look at this board now the village-draw engine is a lot stronger than the one in the base set.

Well there I just disagree with you. How is it stronger? The components are more expensive and for what benefit? (this is a rhetorical question, I'm aware of the benefits, I just don't think they're worth it.) I'd say it's a close call at best, certainly not "a lot stronger." Am I just wrong here?

A single village doesnt help a BM deck but a single plaza does comparable to for example haven. And Catacombs is much better for a BM-like deck than a Smithy.
Yes, costing 5 instead of 4 is a big difference in most cases, but as BM key costs are 3 and 6 so it's not that big of a deal. And the cointoken makes this a LOT better than smithy-village-money.
As long as you buy gold on 6 and silver on 3 it should still stay a decent BM strategy and you have the coin tokens to smooth out your buys.
So i dont think there will be a huge advantage for any of the two strats over the other here.
Actually my personal opinion is that a BM with plazas on 4 and somtimes on 5 and two or three Librarys might even be a little better than both of those but maybe that's just personal preference.

Hmm, there's certainly something to be said for adding a Plaza in on $4, especially given how my second shuffle went. Then Library becomes better compared to Catacombs, but given that I wanted to play Taxman, thinking he would be going for money too, maybe that changes things? I wonder if that's stronger than what I did. This is the kind of thing that will help me sleep better at night, knowing I can actually get something out of this loss.
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Burning Skull

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 02:39:06 pm »
0

I also have some notes concerning my game with EgorK.

In the first game, yes, like he said, Treasuries was a no go indeed.
I actually don't think you need a Steward here with 5/2.

Can't say Rats in the second game was something absolutely pointless, maybe it helped a bit, but not sure about them being significantly better than just another silver.

In the third game that second Gold of me was definitely a huge mistake. I should have known that both of as are able to buy one province per turn since then, and now I think it should have even been a Duchy. Like some extrapolation of PPR.

In the fourth game I got a bit frustrated from the very beginning from the variety of options and totally misplayed it.

In the fifth game we both did pretty much the same, he just did it a bit more better :)

Can't say much about the last game. It did not had any hard decisions for me, and I think these late game Graverobbers, though hardly did anything useful for me, were definitely a good move in theory.

It was a pretty close match and I really enjoyed playing all the games (except the fourth one maybe :) ). Good luck with the rest of the games, Egor!

P.S. It is funny we played against each other in this Tournament since we live in one City and probably are the only two players from Russia. Maybe we should practice some real life Dominion on similar occasions :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 02:45:08 pm by Burning Scull »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 03:06:56 pm »
+2

I always say that you make your own shuffle luck. The point of that is exactly for games like this because I feel like I played a better strategy and still lost, but I just need to take a hard look at my play and find what I could have done better instead.

"You make you own shuffle luck" is a fine philosophy if the point is to make you focus on reducing your own mistakes and improving your play. But it's not enough to just think about your mistakes in a given approach/strategy, what you're really interested in is the strength compared to other things. Optimizing stuff in a vacuum is pointless. But to evaluate and compare strategies after a game you have to think about who got luckier as well. Otherwise you get misinformation.

If all you get from a game is strategy X beat strategy Y, you've taken a too coarse-grained view. You should try to incorporate more information: this player went first, plus these opening splits, plus these opening buys, plus these first reshuffles, etc. etc. You can't get every detail, but you should strive for more, whatever more happens to be for you.

Quote
I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

I don't have any comments about this game specifically, but there's a really good reason to blame some wins/losses on luck even if you "didn't get any better for it." The really good reason is to not get any worse! If you lose a game due to horrific shuffles, but convince yourself you made some serious mistake because "you make your own shuffle luck", you will get worse at Dominion because suddenly things which are not mistakes are identified as mistakes. It's like you're gaslighting yourself.
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 03:13:10 pm »
0

Quote
I hate coming to the conclusion that I just got unlucky because I still lost the game and I didn't get any better for it.

I actually quite like coming to the conclusion that I was unlucky. Worrying about unlucky games does me no good at all provided that I didn't abandon sensible play in adversity (as I have done in the past, maybe even a few hours ago). Appraise the game, see where it was won and lost, then move on.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 3 Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 03:24:13 pm »
0

Yeah I get that, WW and I had a discussion on a stream once (and I'm sure it bored the crap out of the chat since I wasn't playing for like 10 minutes and I was fanboying pretty hard) about this topic.

I understand that it's not true that the better strategy wins every game. Sometimes 7-2 offsuit beats Pocket Aces, and I know that doesn't mean I should play 7-2 offsuit. (Disclaimer: I don't think I was playing Pocket Aces and AI was playing 7-2 off, it's probably closer to me playing Pocket Queens and him playing K-Q or something, but I really don't know that much about Poker)

But where is the line? When is it OK for me to say that I had a better strategy than my opponent and only lost because of luck? I feel like such a D-bag saying that, and it implies that I played perfectly. I at least need to know that I played perfectly before I can say something like that or else I feel like I can't become a better player for it, and 99.9999% of the time that just isn't possible.

Just don't think that I'm saying the better strategy wins all the time. I'm not, it just sounds like I am because it really helps keep ego in check and keep me focused on getting better, not making excuses for my losses.

Every little decision I make I should know if it was justified. Was it right for me to go harder for Duchies to make the game go longer? Should I have opened Taxman or waited for BoM-as-Taxman? What about Plaza/Library, is that better?
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