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Author Topic: Least favorite card?  (Read 31641 times)

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Nik

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2014, 06:10:47 pm »
0

Nobody has mentioned Wishing Well or Mystic yet...WAY too swingy and rely too much on luck.
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markusin

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2014, 06:16:23 pm »
+7

Nobody has mentioned Wishing Well or Mystic yet...WAY too swingy and rely too much on luck.
2 things here:

1. It's not the end of the game by any means if you guess wrong, and both players will have their hit or miss moments. I wouldn't call it WAY too swingy. Wishing Well is often something you pick up because you don't want more Silver. Mystic has synergy with a bunch of cards, including itself.

2. Deck tracking can increase the chances that you make a correct guess.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2014, 06:44:49 pm »
+1

Nobody has mentioned Wishing Well or Mystic yet...WAY too swingy and rely too much on luck.
2 things here:

1. It's not the end of the game by any means if you guess wrong, and both players will have their hit or miss moments. I wouldn't call it WAY too swingy. Wishing Well is often something you pick up because you don't want more Silver. Mystic has synergy with a bunch of cards, including itself.

2. Deck tracking can increase the chances that you make a correct guess.

Similar to #1, it also isn't a complete coup if you DO guess successfully.  When I think of swingy cards, I think of cards where a little bit of luck (good or bad) can lead to a huge advantage for one player.  Things like matching up Tournament and Province early, or Sea Hag flipping Sea Hag, or missing $3P for Familiar.  Guessing correctly with WW or Mystic is nice, but not completely game-winning.

(edit for cost typo)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:22:06 pm by eHalcyon »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2014, 01:35:59 am »
+3

I would actually argue that WW and Mystic are two of the least swingy cards in Dominion and actually reward good deck tracking more than anything.
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Donald X.

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2014, 02:49:18 am »
+19

As I've said previously, Spy-family cards are the worst for playtesting (and the +1 Action Spies would all be different if I made them today), and in general a card didn't have much of a chance of being published if I hated it, so I like most of the hated cards and even adore some of them.

These days vs. bots, it's sad to see Rebuild on the table because it's a reminder that I blew it on Rebuild, that serious players hate Rebuild. And that game vs. the bot will not be especially fun either. IRL it used to be no fun to play Pirate Ship games, because there would be someone who thought it was broken, and I'd have to beat them up with whatever else, only you know, the card wasn't supposed to never be playable, maybe the board would actually be good for them and they'd win and then say yeah, so broken, wow you sure blew it on Pirate Ship. So they were these tense games where in the end I beat them up because Pirate Ship is in fact bad.

I like the swingy cards, I like Swindler and Tournament a lot. I love Black Market. I don't adore Possession but it doesn't bother me either, I've gotten some fun out of it. Goons and Masquerade and King's Court are good times. I like Jack. I love Peddler, my favorite card in Prosperity. I like Governor fine, Jester is great. Philosopher's Stone has never been an issue for me in person, though it was a mistake to have it in Alchemy, since lots of people find it to be too slow (and that's an issue with the set overall). I love Smugglers. I like Remake and the Knights, love Procession, don't really mind Familiar. I like Cultist, I find Soothsayer really unobjectionable; I don't mind Mountebank so much but it would be nice if it was less automatic. Wishing Well and Mystic are fun.

I am sympathetic towards people who don't like Torturer and Minion; in later years I sometimes ended up having a +3 Cards attack because you need to do something simple to go with the attack part, but it's better when good attacks don't also draw your deck. In person I don't look at my hand in Minion games until my turn, that cut out a lot of the uh pain. I like the actual decks fine, I like doing cute things with Minion. I am sympathetic on the IGG front; I would like to see how IGG plays as a Silver for $6 that gives out Curses when you gain it. It doesn't sink games for me and sometimes does tricks, but sometimes you are just spending the game buying IGGs and VP, ho hum.

I agree that Council Room is annoying vs. the bots, especially in the adventures, where you see it a lot and are sometimes at a disadvantage. Maybe it just buys a Council Room and beats you. If it had to be clever it wouldn't have a chance. The interface for Urchin does make it annoying; I'm not sure what there is to do there.
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SCSN

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2014, 10:58:38 am »
+1

The interface for Urchin does make it annoying; I'm not sure what there is to do there.

"Do you want to trash Urchin?"

- Yes
- No
- No for the rest of the game

With the 3rd option having no effect on Possession turns.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2014, 11:03:46 am »
+3

The Urchin interface could be made slightly better in the case of multiple Urchins in play. Right now if you have 2 or more Urchins in play when you play an Attack card, it gives you the option to trash each one, in sequence. Ideally it would just highlight them all at once and have a Done button or something. Fool's Gold used to have this same bad implementation in the early days of Hinterlands on Goko.

"No for the rest of the game" is obviously bad. What if your Mercenary gets swindled or you decide you want another one after all because you have too much junk?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:05:40 am by LastFootnote »
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SCSN

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2014, 11:21:03 am »
+2

"No for the rest of the game" is obviously bad. What if your Mercenary gets swindled or you decide you want another one after all because you have too much junk?

In Dominion you're allowed to think ahead and refrain from chosing an option you might at some point regret.

In ~95% of Urchin games there comes a point where I'm certain that I don't want to gain a future Mercenary regardless of what happens, in the remaining ~5% I'd just chose "No" every time. As such I think this feature would make a really great addition.
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sudgy

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2014, 01:33:59 pm »
+8

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.
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Awaclus

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2014, 01:37:36 pm »
0

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.
Well, at least it would be better than the current implementation.
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GeoLib

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2014, 02:26:58 pm »
+1

The worst situation with the current implementation is if the attack triggering urchin is mercenary. You have to keep clicking "Done Trashing" and if you click it one to many times you make mercenary not trash and you've just played a dead card. A "Done" button seems like a great addition.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2014, 02:35:18 pm »
0

The worst situation with the current implementation is if the attack triggering urchin is mercenary. You have to keep clicking "Done Trashing" and if you click it one to many times you make mercenary not trash and you've just played a dead card. A "Done" button seems like a great addition.

Plus, on the subject of interfaces, all these choice buttons are way to close (that is, on top of) the "Done Playing Actions" (or whatever it's called) button.  I've had quite a few games where I've accidentally skipped most of my action phase.  Lag can add to this problem.  And it's more likely to happen in the kind of deck where you have a lot of actions with a lot of different choices, which, of course, makes not skipping your Action phase more important.
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markusin

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2014, 03:21:42 pm »
0

Nice to hear your comments on this, Donald.

You mentioned that cards you didn't like weren't likely to make it into the game. This suggests the possibility that there are still a few official cards you don't really care for. Are there any cards that you didn't like all that much but were added because the other playtesters really liked them?
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AJD

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2014, 04:08:47 pm »
0

I like Rebuild. I mean, okay, it makes for boring strategy I guess, but it's fun to play—i.e., I think it's fun to dig for a Victory card and expand it.

I don't like Ghost Ship. It's just so painful to be on the losing end of a Ghost Ship engine.
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silverspawn

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2014, 04:28:56 pm »
+1

I think a possible solution for the interface problem would be to implement hotkeys. Ideally, there is one key who basically says "don't do something unless not doing it hurts me". The idea here is that you can use him a lot, and if you click one too many times, it's not a big deal. If your opponent reveals a curse/estate to your spy, press that key. If curses are empty and you may reveal a bane card, press that key. If you play an urchin, press that key, but it would only work if you already have a mercenary. It wouldn't work to not-moat an attack that hurts you, it wouldn't work to not-reveal a tournament, and it wouldn't make you not discard a curse for mountebank.

Additionally, there could be two keys who just strictly say "do something" and "don't do something", which could also make you not discard a curse to a mountebank. So, if you're confident not to make mistakes, you can just ignore the safety key and use these two, if you aren't, use the safe key first, that's still faster than pressing buttons. There are probably some edge cases where a sytem doesn't recognize that a choice not to do something does hurt you, but in these cases you wouldn't want to press it anyway, so the only times where it actively hurts you is if you do a mistake and it happens to be one of these cases (e.g. reveal province and prevent your opponent from having a devastating reshuffle). That seems like a really minor drawback.

Oh, and there is absolutely no reason to choose the order of cards when you put them onto your deck with oracle. It's obvious that the only reason the card says "in any order" it is that it matters for opponents and the wording is easier this way.

Donald X.

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2014, 12:15:45 am »
+2

You mentioned that cards you didn't like weren't likely to make it into the game. This suggests the possibility that there are still a few official cards you don't really care for. Are there any cards that you didn't like all that much but were added because the other playtesters really liked them?
Not really. I knew Lookout and Loan would be duds of their respective sets, for similar reasons, and there were players who liked them, so you could say that those opinions factored in. Envoy and Walled Village made it out as promos because I needed promos; they hadn't been good enough for sets (as opposed to Governor, specifically made as a promo, Stash, which might have made a later set, and Black Market, where wonkiness was the issue). Valerie was scared of Thief, and that's part of how Chancellor and Woodcutter are in the main set; Chancellor just would have been in Intrigue, but Woodcutter might not have existed otherwise.
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Donald X.

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2014, 12:20:15 am »
0

I think "No for the rest of this turn" would work well.
This sounds like an improvement. I don't think "no for the rest of the game" works. Hotkeys are uh too much for non-experts.
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brokoli

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2014, 11:25:16 am »
+2

I'm not a Rebuild hater. I know sometimes Rebuild can make the game boring, but I think it's interesting to have such a powerful card, because it's nice when you try something creative and find a better way to win the game rather than simple Rebuild rush. And even simple rebuild rush are fast games with still some decisions to do.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2014, 05:52:40 pm »
+1

My new least favorite card is Stonemason, because I hate seeing the Goko bots gain a dozen random cards every single turn.  And the only choices for speed are set it on fast and have the card-gaining graphic take forever, or set it on very fast and see nothing.

Seriously, the card gaining graphic is annoying.  Why does it need to pause so long?
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florrat

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2014, 07:29:24 pm »
0

My new least favorite card is Stonemason, because I hate seeing the Goko bots gain a dozen random cards every single turn.  And the only choices for speed are set it on fast and have the card-gaining graphic take forever, or set it on very fast and see nothing.

Seriously, the card gaining graphic is annoying.  Why does it need to pause so long?
A possible solution would be set it on very fast and look in the log what happened.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2014, 11:38:50 pm »
+3

My new least favorite card is Stonemason, because I hate seeing the Goko bots gain a dozen random cards every single turn.  And the only choices for speed are set it on fast and have the card-gaining graphic take forever, or set it on very fast and see nothing.

Seriously, the card gaining graphic is annoying.  Why does it need to pause so long?
A possible solution would be set it on very fast and look in the log what happened.

I mean yeah, you could do that.  Sometimes I do when I get annoyed.  But a better solution would just be to halve the time that the card stays up there in the middle of the screen.  In most cases, we know what the card is anyway (Cursers, Ruins, Spoils).  In other cases it's easy to recognize, and if you miss it you can check the log.
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Nik

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2014, 08:59:28 am »
0

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2014, 09:04:03 am »
0

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...


Because Mine is quite a bad card which doesn't have a huge impact. Rebuild is a pretty strong card which leads to a boring-yet-often-best strategy of "just buy and play rebuilds" (okay, it's a little more complicated), which saps a lot of the complexity out of the game.

SirPeebles

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2014, 09:05:17 am »
0

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...

Wow, really?

Oh, I see.  You are probably thinking of how similar the mechanic is.  That Rebuild is just a Mine for Victory cards?  But people aren't upset about the mechanic.  Maybe a few people dislike digging, but that's not where the hate is coming from.
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clloxin

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Re: Least favorite card?
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2014, 10:29:39 am »
0

I don't understand why people are hating on Rebuild but not Mine...
Try playing a few games with rebuild and then you'll see.
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