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[LibraryAdventurer]

So I played two games with my parents today and may have finally convinced my mom that trashing coppers is a good thing. She at least recognises that buying extra coppers is rarely useful (We don't have the base set, so we've never played with Gardens).

In the other thread, luser suggested having her start with 6 estates and 14 coppers. Since she already knows that extra estates are bad until the very end of the game (even though she still doesn't like trashing them), I opted to let her start with 5 extra coppers, so her deck had 3 estates and 12 coppers. But I didn't think of doing that till the second game.

The first game kingdom: Native Village, Embargo, Fishing Village, Steward, Ambassador, Warehouse, Forager, Watchtower, Upgrade, and Torturer.
     FYI, I have Intrigue, Seaside, and Dark Ages, and I usually add in one proxy card per game which is often a fan-made card, but in this case was Watchtower. I usually play 3-player with my parents.
     With an abundance of trashing, it seems like this would've been a great kingdom to have her start with five extra coppers (of course I gave her a few extra coppers anyway with Ambassador) to learn that trashing them is a good thing. I won this game by a lot anyway largely because I'm the only one who used Ambassador. And I learned this game that Watchtower is, at least on boards like this, a lot better than I thought it was. I did point out that Watchtower is a great defence against torturer, but I didn't tell them that they probably want more than one Watchtower when I have two torturers which I'm playing pretty often because of trashing.

The second game kingdom: Lighthouse, Haven, Island, Navigator, Conspirator, Treasury, Bazaar, Rogue, Harem, and LastFootnote's Wheelwright as the proxy card.
     Seeing this kingdom, I wondered if it might be best to wait till next time we played to use the extra five coppers idea, but I decided against waiting, so she started with 12 coppers and 3 estates. I figured as much of a disadvantage five extra coppers would be, it would still help her to learn that coppers are junk despite a kingdom that isn't ideal for the purpose. This game, I tied with my dad, only beating my mom by five points. I'm pretty sure she at least learned that having extra coppers is not an advantage. 

Maybe next time I'll start with five extra coppers as a handicap.

[popsofctown]

Tell her she can pay you money to add Coppers to your deck, and the more she pays, the more you add.  Then if she beats you you'll get the base set and let her play with Smithy.

[Awaclus]

Is it really that hard to convince someone that Coppers are bad? Usually people believe me when I tell them that a hand of 5 Coppers isn't enough to buy a Province and that's why Coppers are bad.

[KingZog3]

Is it really that hard to convince someone that Coppers are bad? Usually people believe me when I tell them that a hand of 5 Coppers isn't enough to buy a Province and that's why Coppers are bad.

That usually convinces people. LibraryAdveturer, have you tried  that argument? Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

[pedroluchini]

Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

As far as teaching methods go, I think that's rather backwards. There are several reasons Copper is bad, and as a consequence it costs $0; if you teach it the other way around, they will come to accept this fact without gaining a deeper understanding of the underlying reasons.

...Then again, you might as well try this if all other options have failed.

[dondon151]

Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

Scout costs $4, and it's much better than Silver.

[KingZog3]

Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

Scout costs $4, and it's much better than Silver.

There's always an exception to the rule.

[scott_pilgrim]

Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

Scout costs $4, and it's much better than Silver.

There's always an exception to the rule.

Every rule has an exception, the exception to this one being that it has no exception.

[popsofctown]

Is it really that hard to convince someone that Coppers are bad? Usually people believe me when I tell them that a hand of 5 Coppers isn't enough to buy a Province and that's why Coppers are bad.

That usually convinces people. LibraryAdveturer, have you tried  that argument? Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

Logical fallacies generally aren't good even if the ends justify the means.

[RD]

Or how about the fact that they cost $0 while everything else is more expensive.

As far as teaching methods go, I think that's rather backwards. There are several reasons Copper is bad, and as a consequence it costs $0; if you teach it the other way around, they will come to accept this fact without gaining a deeper understanding of the underlying reasons.

...Then again, you might as well try this if all other options have failed.

Besides which, Copper is obviously much better than the $0 Curse or Ruins; and in the opening, better than the $2 Estate. There's no particular reason to believe that Copper costs $0 because DXV thought this was what it's actually worth. In fact I'd argue a cost of $1 is probably more balanced. (Not to say "better," nor that it would really make much difference.)

Copper costs $0 for two reasons. One, because it's good for a beginner to be able to build back up if they accidentally Chapel all their money away. (Or if a serious player gets hit with something like a Masq pin, but at that point it doesn't matter much.) Two, yes, to send a message about how bad this card is; but a skeptic could just discount this and go with the first explanation.

[Co0kieL0rd]

In my experience with unexperienced players, nearly no-one figures out on their own that Coppers (and Estates) are generally bad. So you have to teach them, it's only fair to do so, because it's such an essential element to almost every game. Some people would learn instantly and trash all that junk for good, but some just don't get it. A friend of mine occasionally trashes Copper, but not as much as he could, and buys Thief or Noble Brigand in the opening although we told him it's bad. I played quite similarly during my first games because no one told me the necessity of early trashing. I wouldn't buy Money Lender because it seemed to me so similar to take a credit in real life (which I avoid as strongly as possible). Back then I had no sense for the speed of a game or the importance of slim decks. I found all that out by reading strategy articles and watching game recordings. Of course, most occasional Dominion players won't do that so tell them right away.

I think handicapping a beginner's deck is the wrong approach as it teaches not about the importance of trashing but rather slows their deck cycling down and makes it a dull experience. And you don't learn to evaluate your two opening buys like this.