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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« on: March 05, 2014, 10:19:37 am »
+27

133 votes on this list. Here they are.

The Best $1-$2 Cards (Part 1/2)

#22 =0 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 11.0% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 13.8% / Median: 9.5% ▲4.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6%

Secret Chamber is the worst $2 card again, but it was closer. It has 41 last ranks and it was voted 7 times above 50%. In the unweighted list, it's one rank higher.

The action part seems not so bad. You can discard cards for money and in decks with many victory cards or curses it's guaranteed $4. But first: What do you want to buy with $4? As a opener it's bad, because mostly you want to get to $5 and later in the game you need $5 too to get at least a Duchy. So, basically it's a very bad Vault and you better buy a Silver. But there are rare cases, especially you can use it when you need virtual money like in Tactician turns, or you draw your whole deck with Scrying Pools discard all action cards with Secret Chamber for money just to draw them again, or when you want to buy Grand Markets. It's reaction part is really bad. It has nearly no effect against the best attacks: Cursers and Handsize-Reducers, but you can use it against cards that mess up the top of your deck or trash cards from your deck, like Swindler, Pirate Ship or Knights. But most of them (like Thief) are already bad. Why buy a reaction card against Thief? Yes, it's nice against Minion, but that's all.
#21 =0 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 12.1% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 12.8% / Median: 9.5% ▲2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6%

Duchess stayed also where it was: second last. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. It has 23 last votes and only 3 voted it above 50%.

It's a terminal silver with a spy-effect that has even a benefit for your opponents. Yeah, it's even so bad that it needs a clause to get it for free when you buy a Duchy.
And mostly that are the only cases you want a Duchess. Rarely you want to spend $2 to buy one. Once in a while you want it for free, especially when you are trying to make a "green card rush" with Duke or Silk Road and want to maintain the buying power and emptying the third pile as fast as possible. Getting it for free is probably the only reason that it isn't ranked last. That means: A Duchess for free is even better than a Secret Chamber for $2.
#20 =0 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 15.7% ▲2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 17.5% / Median: 14.3% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Pearl Diver is better than last year, but still third last. In the unweighted list, it's even better. It was voted 23 times last and 9 times above average.

Pearl Diver mostly don't hurt in your deck as it is a cantrip. So, if you got $2 early and you don't want to buy an Estate, you can buy a Pearl Diver. Buying too much Duchesses or Secret Chambers hurts much more than too many Pearl Divers. But the benefit of Pearl Diver is lower than those cards. It's only use is to minimize draw luck a little bit and to let cards shine which interact with the top card of your deck (Native Village comes into my mind). Since Cornucopia it might got a little boost as it can add more diversity into your deck and cards like Menagerie, Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty can profit from it. It can also be essential for a Conspirator chain, but Pearl Diver never really shines, it only hurts less.
#19 =0 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 21.8% ▲1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 24.8% / Median: 19.1%  ▼1.4pp / Standard Deviation: 21.0%

Over 6pp better is Herbalist and its unweighted average is even 3pp higher. Still it stays on fourth last. It was voted 12 times last and 15 times above average.

Herbalist is a terminal copper. How bad is that! So, mostly it hurts. But "scheming" your treasures is really nice. In the beginning you can use your newly bought Gold or even Platinum twice if you have the luck to draw it with Herbalist. And even putting back a Silver is not so bad in the beginning. But especially if you're going for Potion (because of that it's in Alchemy) you can use it twice early on. The most important combo might be Alchemist+Herbalist. And - mostly forgotten - it's one of few $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one - besides Candlestick Maker - which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option). The +Buy and putting back Treasure cards makes Herbalist + Philosopher's Stone a very powerful combo. But otherwise this card is mostly not worth buying.
#18 ▼2 Beggar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 30.6% ▼4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 31.0% / Median: 28.6% ▼3.0pp / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Beggar is the first loser in this list. It's over 4pp worse and lost 2 ranks. It was voted last 9 times and 25 times above average. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list.

As gaining Coppers is generally bad, this card is very situational as the high deviation suggests. Beggar/Gardens is a power combo. With Beggar you can green very early and are still likely to hit $4 and gain 4 cards in a turn with Beggar in hand. As Copper is no bad card for alternative Victory cards in general, it works also decent with Silk Road, Duke and Feodum (if your opponent is going to attack you a lot). Beggar also helps you to get to $5 and then Counting House is a solid option to buy especially in slogs or in Colony games. It even helps you to get to $6 or $7, but of all the expensive cards Bank might be the only one worth it as Beggar + Bank gives you already $7 guaranteed. It might also work well in decks that like Coppers, like Philosopher's Stone and Apothecary. But in general the 3 Coppers really slow you down and are a big disadvantage, but near the end a terminal Gold isn't that bad. The reaction part is not so strong in general and depends on the attack card. It's great against Pillage and is also nice against Jester/Swindler/Saboteur/Knights as they don't want to hit Silver.
#17 ▲1 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 33.9% ▲10.0pp / Unweighted Average: 33.1% / Median: 28.6% ▲7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

Moat is a big winner this year. It is 10 percentage points and one rank higher than last year. It also had a high deviation last time, this year it's the sixth lowest. Only 4 people voted it last and 25 voted it above average.

Moat is very situational. It highly depends on the cards on the board and - more important - on the number of players. If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat is generally a must-buy. It can prevent getting 3 coppers and 3 curses in one turn. But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers or Library/Watchtower/Menagerie against hand-size-reducing is mostly the better alternative. Even worse, if there's no attack card on the board, +2 cards with no other benefit is so weak, because that means a raw benefit of +1 card. Maybe only if your going for Big Money with bad other cards and you're getting unlucky and hit $2 early, this might be worth considering.
#16 ▲1 Vagrant (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 36.4% ▲9.7pp / Unweighted Average: 36.6% / Median: 33.3% ▲12.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2%

Vagrant made a big jump similar to Moat. It's also nearly 10pp and one rank better. It was voted last once.

Vagrant is the fixed Scout. It has the advantage over Scout that it is at least a cantrip, so it never hurts as long as you don't draw it dead. Also it can put Shelters, Ruins and Curses in hand while Scout can't. But on the other hand, it's at best only a Laboratory where one of the two cards is dead anyway. You basically just have a chance to make your next hand better. So, in essence it's similar to Pearl Diver, a nice card for engines if you have spare buys which will occasionally help you but is never a real Power House. It can only shine in heavy Curse/Ruins games where you have a lot of $2 hands anyway and in situations where you want those cards in hand, especially dual-type Victory cards like Great Hall, Nobles and Harem. It could also work as a soft counter against Ghost Ship.
#15 ▼1 Poor House (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 37.8% ▼8.5pp / Unweighted Average: 38.3% / Median: 38.1% ▼9.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6%

This is the only card costing $1 and it's not last. But it lost quite a bit in comparism to last year. It's one rank worse and lost over 8 percentage points. It was voted last 3 times.

Poor House is the shiny $1 card that let you look differently at Remake and Upgrade as you can't trash Coppers without having to gain a card anymore when it's on the board. Poor House looks really complicated, but is similar to Secret Chamber in that manner that it guarantees $4 in a 5-card hand. It even doesn't care about the size of your hand. But it's only really useful in treasure-less decks where it is a terminal $4. A hand of 2 Poor Houses and Hamlet basically guarantees a Province. So, it loves engines with virtual coins and of course it loves +buy as you can pick up multiple Poor Houses in one turn. Mint/Poor House can also be a really good opening. But in Big Money decks or Draw Engines without trashing Poor House is horrible. A 2-card hand of King's Court and Poor House even guarantees a Colony, great for a card costing only $1.
#14 ▼1 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 40.7% ▼7.3pp / Unweighted Average: 39.6% / Median: 38.1% ▼9.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Embargo lost nearly as much as Poor House and also dropped one rank. It was voted last 3 times.

First, it's a terminal silver. Basically that's bad. But it's a one-shot. So if you get unlucky and hit $2 early you can buy it without much thinking as it only interferes once. But Embargo can be a game-changer, especially if you and your opponent(s) are taking different strategies. And it really shines if your opponent buys a Potion and you decide not to go for Potion. Just embargo the Potion-cost card and you are turns ahead. And especially you can shut down strategies that want a lot of a single card, like Hunting Party, Alchemist or alternative victory cards. So, it's nearly never bad, but only shines situation-wise.
#13 ▲2 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 43.2% ▲6.2pp / Unweighted Average: 43.6% / Median: 42.9% ▲6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Cellar is 2 ranks higher than last year, ignoring the new Guilds cards, and has over 6pp more than last year. It was voted last twice.

There are many cards that take profit from bad cards like Estate or Curses. Secret Chamber fails - as mentioned earlier - by just getting $1 per card. Cellar let you discard them and get you get your good cards in hand. Of course Warehouse is better in most cases as it let you draw your cards before discarding, but Cellar can even discard more than 3 cards if you wish. If you want compare Cellar with another $2 card, Crossroads comes into your mind. Crossroads also lets you draw more cards for useless cards. But it is limited to green cards, so you get no benefit for Curses and Coppers. But you don't have to discard them and it gives you +3 Actions the first time. So it highly depends which card is better. In cursing games Cellar's great. And of course with Tunnel. The problem is often the opportunity cost; when do you want to spend your money on a $2 mediocre card?
#12 ▼2 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 44.0% ▼12.7pp / Unweighted Average: 46.1% / Median: 47.6% ▼10.3pp / Standard Deviation: 22.1%

Haven is a really big loser. Over 12pp worse, wow! This results also in being 2 ranks worse than last year. It has 2 last votes.

Haven reduces your hand size by one, but your next hand size is bigger, that hurts very rarely, so it's like a mini-Tactician. And this ability to minimize draw luck is great. You have $11, just set a Gold aside. You have $7, just set a Copper aside. Two terminal actions in hand, no problem. A village you don't need this turn, etc. You get your maximum out of your money and your actions. It's a pretty solid card, but no game-changer what may be the reason why it isn't rated higher. It supports every strategy but isn't a strategy on its own.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:29:03 pm by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 10:19:51 am »
+13

The Best $1-$2 Cards (Part 2/2)

#11 =0 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 47.8% ▼4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 48.8% / Median: 52.4% ▼0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.4%

Pawn lost nearly 5pp, but is still on the same rank - ignoring Guilds cards.

Pawn is bad if you don't know how to play it and simply use it as a cantrip. But it can be very useful as a cheap source of +Buy and in the beginning it's mostly a cheap Silver if you use it for card + money. Its flexibility makes it good. But it's not great, but can be very useful in a lot of case. It's great as source of +Buy or +$1 in Minion games and is good in engines with draw-up-to-X cards like Watchtower. It can win your game because you picked it up for +Buy but normally it's no game-changer. And if you use it for card + action it at least doesn't hurt.
#10 ▲2 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 50.9% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 51.7% / Median: 52.4% ▲5.0pp / Standard Deviation: 23.1%

Native Village has nearly the same value, but is 2 ranks better than last year. It has also the second highest deviation in this list, with 3 last places on one side and 10 votes above 90% on the other side.

The problem with NV is that you get no immediate benefit beside the +2 Actions. If you use it as a cheap village you only draw 1/2 card per play. But that's not the intended use. But you can use it either as a pseudo-trasher by putting bad cards on the mat. But normally it fails that you cannot choose the card to put there. You need assistence with cards like Spy or especially Apothecary. The best use may be to use it for mega-turn with a lot of buys. NV+Bridge is the most effective combo. It's also neat on boards with heavy cursing to either forge a big hand or to get at least once to $6-$8.
#9 =0 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 60.3% ▼4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 62.5% / Median: 61.9% ▼6.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Now we're making a huge jump of nearly 10pp. Crossroads is on the same rank, but lost nearly 5pp. It's the first card with no last rank. It was even voted first 4 times.

Crossroads is the only card with +3 Actions (yeah Fishing Village has it too in some way). And this can be very useful. The problem is the luck factor you need with that card. If you buy it early and get a hand with 4 coppers, you wish it were a Silver or one of the next $2 cards. Later you draw it with 3 Estates and you draw now your Vault and you can buy a Province for sure. It combos well with cards that take advantage of big hands. So Crossroads + Vault is very good as is Wharf/Crossroads. And of course it's great with your good $5 attacks, especially setting up a Torturer chain. Baron + Crossroads is also nice because it gives you the actions to play multiples and you can much easier connect Estate and Baron together. Crossroads is rarely a reason to go green earlier, but it helps a lot in the end game and can assure you won't lose your buying power. And sometimes there are so many good terminals that you only want it for its 3 Actions. As mentioned above another problem is that it only synergizes with victory cards not with curses what makes it a worse alternative to Cellar in cursing games. Drawing without having to discard is often better because you have targets for other cards, for example trash-for-benefit cards.
#8 Stonemason (Guilds) Weighted Average: 64.3% / Unweighted Average: 63.1% / Median: 71.4% / Standard Deviation: 25.4%

Stonemason is now the first Guilds card. It has the highest deviation in this list with 6 first ranks and 3 last ranks.

Stonemason's on play effect is in general pretty weak. It's slow in Copper trashing and bad in Estate trashing as you have to gain Coppers. It's best use may be to trash Golds (or other $6+ costs) for 2 Duchies in the end game or strong $5s in the mid game. This is especially great with Gold gainers like Market Square. You can also use it to pile out rather quick. The big strength is the overpay effect though. Gaining two engine pieces for $2 more is a great deal, even at the cost of having to gain a often useless card. The overpay effect works also great with Potion cost cards, like Apothecary where Estate trashing for 2 Coppers isn't that bad. It comboes also well with Quarry because you can gain 2 cards for the cost of one. But if you don't go for an engine this cards is mostly useless, so it's very situational. Just beware of the piles when you play with it because both effects lead to very early endings.
#7 Candlestick Maker (Guilds) Weighted Average: 67.4% / Unweighted Average: 65.6% / Median: 71.4% / Standard Deviation: 22.0%

And the next card is the other new cheap Guilds card. It has also still a pretty high deviation, the fourth highest.

Nonterminal buy and coin tokens, both are very powerful. Candlestick Maker combines these two things into one strong card. Unless you choose +1 Card, it's always superior to Pawn as you get always 3 of the 4 options and the coin token is even stronger than +1$. It is a very good addition to most decks. It's good in engines where you want that nonterminal +Buy and in money strategies without terminal draw, the coin tokens will smooth out your hands. Only in terminal draw BM decks it's not that good as you can draw it dead.
#6 ▼1 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 70.2% ▼5.4pp / Unweighted Average: 70.2% / Median: 71.4% ▼7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Lighthouse lost one rank again. It has lost over 5pp. It was voted 6 times below 25%. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher.

With Lighthouse on the board, you really need to evualate if it's worth building an attacking engine. It may the best Reaction that isn't even blue. Why? Most important: It's non-terminal. Unlike Moat, it cannot collide with other terminal actions or another copy. Second: It gives you money. It may look like a Copper, but after you play it, you are safe and get even another $1 the next turn. Without the reaction part it's still nearly as good as Silver, but on boards with heavy attacks, it's clearly superior to Silver. You only have to make sure you play one Lighthouse each turn.
#5 ▲1 Squire (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 71.6% ▲0.7pp / Unweighted Average: 69.9% / Median: 76.2% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.7%

Squire is a little bit better than last time, but even one rank higher. In the unweighted ranking it would stay on the same rank. It was voted 6 times below 25%.

Squire is strong because of its flexibility similar to Pawn. Squire's first option +2 Actions is stronger than Pawn's +$1, +1 Action and can be useful in engines or when Squires collide. Squire's second option +2 Buys is also stronger than Pawn's +1$, +1 Buy and can be very useful in buying more Squires, in alt-VP games like Gardens games where buying Coppers isn't that bad and of course in engines where having extra buys is very important. And Squire's third option, gaining a Silver is a great choice whenever you don't need Actions or Buys and can be great if you go for Feodum or any other alt-VP too. And there's its on-trash effect which is very powerful. You can open Chapel/Squire, trash down your deck and gain a Goons on the way. It only misses the draw, but is useful in any engine and most alt-VP games.
#4 ▼2 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 80.7% ▼7.5pp / Unweighted Average: 78.8% / Median: 85.7% ▼3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9%

We're making a jump of around 9pp and are finding the next big loser. Hamlet lost over 7pp and 2 ranks. In the unweighted ranking it would be still one rank higher. It was voted 11 times below 50%.

It's one of the best villages around. Yes, you have to discard one card as "payment" for the second action, but if you really need the +2 Actions there's no problem for you to discard that Copper. And most important: Most engines lack +Buy. Hamlet may provide that for another card as payment. Even if you don't need the +2 Actions for your strategy, a non-terminal card with +Buy is always worth to buy. So, if you use both options, you have a Worker's Village for $2, but you have to "pay" for that options. And when you got your first Hamlet you can easily buy more Hamlets with that additional +Buy. With "draw up to" cards like Watchtower or Library it's brilliant and everybody's favourite for engine building. Of course it's not that useful in Big Money boards what may be the reason for not being in the Top 3 this time.
#3 =0 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 80.9% ▼1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 85.7% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Courtyard lost a bit, but is still on the same rank. Its unweighted average is clearly worse though which results in a fourth rank in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 12 times below 50%.

Courtyard is really great with Big Money. Like Haven it minimizes shuffle luck by putting a card on top of the deck, so if you have too much money or a second Courtyard in hand, that's no problem. But you don't get a 6 card hand like with Haven. But the card draw makes it one of the best Big Money enablers and that's outstanding for a $2 card and if you compare it with Smithy which costs $4. Its concept is simple but very effective. Don't underestimate the power of Courtyard. Additionally Courtyard is also a good drawer in engines as you can put your strong colliding terminal action also on top of your deck. So it's nearly everytime a very strong card.
#2 ▲2 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 83.1% ▲1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 80.7% / Median: 85.7%▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.5%

Fool's Gold is only a bit better, but it's enough to be 2 ranks higher. It has 11 votes below 50%.

Going for Fool's Gold is its own strategy. If you buy just one or two, it mostly isn't worth it, because the reaction part isn't the strong part. You want FG in masses, in high density. With a card with money and +Buy and/or a card drawer it's really great and you have to go for it. Goal: Get as many FGs as you can. Margrave + FG, Wharf + FG or Nomad Camp + FG are good combos, Remodel + FG and Mine + FG as well, but you can get even higher density with Mint. Mint + FG used to be one of the best openings on Councilroom. That may reason enough that FG deserves to be in the Top 3. Connecting at least two FG isn't that hard if you've got lots of them. And then it's better than Silver. But you really have to analyze when to buy it. On boards with strong cursers where it's unlikely to connect them, it's one of the worst cards - on other boards it's the best card.
#1 =0 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 96.1% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 94.8% / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.9%

Chapel has still a huge lead, but it lost quite a bit in points, so the first rank isn't that secure anymore. Still, it's the card with the lowest deviation in this list and it was only voted 4 times below 50%.

So, what's up with that uber-card? Even Donald X. admitted that Chapel is a little bit overpowered and he won't release another card so strong like Chapel in future expansions. Trashing is important in the beginning, and the cost of Chapel enables everyone to open with Chapel. According to Councilroom shows it's veeery strong, but only if you open with it. You even want to start Chapel/Silver with 3/4. It's not every time a must-buy but in most occasions it is. It's so strong that you already can say you lost if your opponent opened Witch/Chapel and you have a 4/3 start. Mountebank/Chapel used to be the overall best opener and with Govenor/Chapel and Tournament/Chapel it was three times in the Top 5 openings and 6 times in the Top 10 and 29 times in the top #100. So, its power is undeniable. I do agree that it's more often skippable than it used to be, especially on Big Money boards or other boards with strong key cards which you want ASAP.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:09:05 am by Qvist »
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RTT

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2014, 11:03:32 am »
+2

Oh cool its getting started.
Quote
Herbalist:
mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option).
Are you refering to hamlet and Pawn?
I think you forgot Candlestickmaker and Squire?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2014, 11:37:07 am »
0

LISTS

Biggest disagreements here:
- I had Moat at #11 and I stand by it.  It's a totally reasonable defense in the presence of villages, and 2 Draw could be a lot worse.  Moat did go up this year, that said.  I'd be pretty satisfied by just swapping Poor House and Moat's position, I guess.
- Pretty convinced at this point Haven is overrated, though it isn't actually much higher than where I put it so that's cool.

So, looking at my own list, the only card not present here is Pawn, which I have right next to Moat anyway.  Overall, I'm inclined to mostly agree with the bottom 11 here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2014, 11:58:30 am »
+1

I think I'd put Pearl Diver last. It just seems to matter so seldom. Secret Chamber is weak, but at least it makes a difference when I do buy it. Duchess is a nice freebie in slogs, though I almost never buy one for $2.

So yeah, I don't think I'd notice if Pearl Diver disappeared. I don't think I can say that about any other card, except maybe Feast.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:29:36 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 12:14:48 pm »
+1

I think the deviation for pearldriver is almost entierly based on how we measure the powerlevel of a card, not on how good we think pearldriver really is. One criterion is: how often do I buy it, and here pearl driver performs fairly decent, because you'll usually always buy it if you can't buy anything else. Another criterion would be: how much impact does it have on my deck. Here it's lowest, as LF said. We have no formula to weight these two, we just do it instinctively. So the question is less "is it overrated" and more "is it overappreciated"

It's similar with herbalist/beggar. I have beggar higher, not because I buy him a lot, but because he's so good sometimes. Might be a little bit underrated too.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:16:25 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 12:24:13 pm »
+1

Oooooh, some big mistakes here.

Poor House, I doubt Poor House is even that good. It's occasionally quite powerful, but more often than not it's just messing up your Upgrading/Remaking/etc.

In no universe is Haven better than Vagrant. Haven is meh and Vagrant is awesome.

I would put Vagrant at the top of this list, followed by Embargo, Moat, and Beggar. Then Cellar, Poor House, Duchess, Herbalist, Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2014, 12:27:36 pm »
0

Oh cool its getting started.
Quote
Herbalist:
mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option).
Are you refering to hamlet and Pawn?
I think you forgot Candlestickmaker and Squire?

True. Old text, copy and pasted, forgot about it. I'll change it.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2014, 01:00:08 pm »
0

I'm glad to see Moat is moving up. It's no longer "criminally underrated", it's just "really underrated". IMO, it's better than all the other cards on this list other than Embargo and maybe Cellar, even in 2-player. Yes attack-blocking is situational, but so are the effects of all the other cards on this list. You can't tell me that Haven or Poor House is impactful more often than Moat.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2014, 01:12:37 pm »
0

Agreed. Moat should be higher. Also, Poor House is too high. Only a few boards is it worth getting. Although, it does have its moments. I guess that is why it is ranked fairly decent.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2014, 02:43:27 pm »
0

So yeah, I don't think I'd notice if Pearl Diver disappeared. I don't think I can say that about any other card, except maybe Feast.
But Feast actually does disappear when you play it.

EDIT: And yeah, Moat should be higher. It's not very good, but still it shouldn't be next to Beggar.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 02:59:57 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2014, 03:03:09 pm »
0

I'll pile on about Moat, it's still very underrated.  I had it at #11 actually, so not even on this section of the list, and maybe that's a bit high.  But it's a card I've come to appreciate in a whole new way, mostly because I've discovered that terminal +2 Cards is much better than I used to think it was.  More than any other source, I have to thank WanderingWinder's videos for teaching me that.  I think the first winning engine I ever saw that used only Moats for draw was in one of his videos.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2014, 03:18:09 pm »
+4

Very Happy to see the $+ cards ratings starting to be revealed!

Overall I'm fairly comfortable with these initial ratings.  My bottom 3 match exactly, but others switched around a little.  I'm happy to see Cellar move up a little, as I always find it valuable in keeping engines running mid-to-late game after you start greening.  I had Moat rated just slightly higher, and agree that it is often underrated, as it can sometimes have high impact in big attack games.

What I noticed when doing the ratings was that my impressions of the cards were unavoidably influenced by how those cards had performed in the last 3-5 games I had played with them.  I tried my best to think long term, but when a decent card just really fails in several recent situations it is hard to forget that (Poor House has really taken a huge dive in my recent experience, and probably deservedly so).  And just the opposite, a fairly weak card like Beggar just really shined in several of my recent games for both the reaction and the extra buy power late in the game, so I may have spotted it a couple ranks higher than it maybe deserves.  And I rated Herbalist a little higher...that +Buy has just been very useful many times - along with "scheming" of a Gold or early Silver.

Looking forward to seeing the rest!! (and seeing where the first of the Guilds cards ranks)  I'm enjoying reading everyone else's thoughts also.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:31:56 pm by 7string »
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 03:51:35 pm »
0

This list is very close to my list so far. I just have Pearl Diver swapped with Herbalist, Moat swapped with Vagrant, and Embargo above Cellar and Haven.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:52:53 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2014, 04:45:48 pm »
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Bottom 4 match completely with mine, the rest not so much. I think Cellar is too high and Pawn as well (in that it hasn't appeared yet). I ranked Poor House and Beggar much higher, but I guess that's the consistency vs power thing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2014, 06:08:31 pm »
+1

I think Secret Chambers is better than Pearl Diver. Pearl Diver is just irrelevant most of the time. Secret Chamber at least can do some nice tricks with Fools Gold or Treasure Map (provided an attack) and the percentage of relevant attacks it effectively defends against has increased with Dark Ages as well as Guilds. Also it likes Silk Roads and Tunnels.

It's a weak card and outclassed by Poor House, but at least it does something.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2014, 06:25:21 pm »
+2

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 06:33:54 pm »
+2

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

maybe lighthouse?  :o

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 06:36:55 pm »
+2

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

Embargo is a really interesting case for card-ranking questions like this. If the presence of Embargo on a board has a substantial effect on what the best strategy is (e.g., avoiding Potions), but at no point would it actually be a good move for you to gain an Embargo (e.g., because your opponent is also avoiding Potions), should that contribute to our judgment of Embargo as a "good card"?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 07:58:19 pm »
0

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

Embargo is a really interesting case for card-ranking questions like this. If the presence of Embargo on a board has a substantial effect on what the best strategy is (e.g., avoiding Potions), but at no point would it actually be a good move for you to gain an Embargo (e.g., because your opponent is also avoiding Potions), should that contribute to our judgment of Embargo as a "good card"?

Yes. At least it did for me. "Influence" on how you play a kingdom matters, even if you never buy the card. Pirate Ship would be another example.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 08:35:53 pm »
0

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

Embargo is a really interesting case for card-ranking questions like this. If the presence of Embargo on a board has a substantial effect on what the best strategy is (e.g., avoiding Potions), but at no point would it actually be a good move for you to gain an Embargo (e.g., because your opponent is also avoiding Potions), should that contribute to our judgment of Embargo as a "good card"?

I took the control aspect in to account, but even with it I rank Embargo in the bottom 11.  It's not because I think Embargo is bad; I just think the cards over it are better even with Embargo's general strengths taken in to account.  A lot of the time the joke is actually on the Embargo player--he makes an assumption like "this guy won't possibly buy Minions if I Embargo them" or "this guy totally can't win without Golds," then the person gets one anyway and has a Curse.  It matters, but not always enough.  I love Embargo, but cards like Pawn, Squire, Hamlet, etc are often cornerstones of decks with little psychological element involved.  For that matter, I think it's also important to realize that EVERY card in the kingdom should change the way one approaches things.  Embargo just makes it more obvious than most.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 09:49:18 pm »
+2

For that matter, I think it's also important to realize that EVERY card in the kingdom should change the way one approaches things.
Yeah. Sometimes the only change it makes is that you are now approaching a 9-card kingdom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 10:59:22 pm »
+3

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 12:11:47 am »
0

I'm most curious to see where Stonemason gets ranked. I put it very high. It can be a super powerful cards in some kingdoms.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2014, 12:17:19 am »
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I'm most curious to see where Stonemason gets ranked. I put it very high. It can be a super powerful cards in some kingdoms.
Me too, I had it as the #1 $2 card.
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