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silverspawn

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2014, 07:15:04 pm »
+1

Dormant?  I mean, it works, but I think "unactivated" would be better.

OK, fair enough. I'm just playing around with different terms. I was using "deactivated" earlier. Obviously "unactivated" is more correct, so I'll go with that.

In other news, here are some ideas I had for other Activation cards. I haven't yet given these as much thought as the ones in the OP, so feedback would be great.

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $3
+1 Buy. +$2.
------------------------------------------------------------
When you activate this, +1 Action per Sawmill you have in play.
So, I assume what you're trying to do with this is to have an alt-village, because otherwise a woodcutter variant doesn't seem all that exciting. That might work... but I think you should choose a different on-play effect. As is, it's almost strictly superior to woodcutter, since you get at least +1 Action back when activating this. The only thing that makes it worse is that it'll miss the reshuffle if you play it as your last action right before a reshuffle.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $6
When you activate this, look through your discard pile. Set aside up to 3 Action cards from it and play them in any order.

A strategy that comes to mind is: have 2 Citadels and 2 action cards with +2$ in your deck. Whenever you have at least 4$ in your hand, activate the citadel. Play the two +2$'s and your other citadel, buy province.

The concept is kind of weird because it synergizes with action cards, but it doesn't want engines that draw your deck. I think it's similar to Golem, but it seemes to be a lot better, mainly because it can play other Citadels. It seems op to me, but I'm not sure.

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2014, 07:37:19 pm »
+1

Boomtown seems overpowered. The activation isn't much of a drawback when you get to choose when it happens. Sometimes putting a card back on your deck is a good thing.

And the attack on Engineer seems too nasty. You could have 2-3 or possibly even more cards trashed all at once. Gaining a cheaper card of the same cost doesn't weaken the attack much. If it hits duchies or silver, it's usually worse than just trashing the card and not getting anything in return. It does help you if it hits copper or estates, but I still think the attack is nasty. The knight attack is already one of the harshest attacks in the game. (Engineer's attack is more like knight's than swindler's. Swindler gives you a card of the same cost and often that means getting another copy of the same card.)

eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2014, 09:02:23 pm »
+1

Dormant?  I mean, it works, but I think "unactivated" would be better.

OK, fair enough. I'm just playing around with different terms. I was using "deactivated" earlier. Obviously "unactivated" is more correct, so I'll go with that.

In other news, here are some ideas I had for other Activation cards. I haven't yet given these as much thought as the ones in the OP, so feedback would be great.

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $3
+1 Buy. +$2.
------------------------------------------------------------
When you activate this, +1 Action per Sawmill you have in play.
So, I assume what you're trying to do with this is to have an alt-village, because otherwise a woodcutter variant doesn't seem all that exciting. That might work... but I think you should choose a different on-play effect. As is, it's almost strictly superior to woodcutter, since you get at least +1 Action back when activating this. The only thing that makes it worse is that it'll miss the reshuffle if you play it as your last action right before a reshuffle.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $6
When you activate this, look through your discard pile. Set aside up to 3 Action cards from it and play them in any order.

A strategy that comes to mind is: have 2 Citadels and 2 action cards with +2$ in your deck. Whenever you have at least 4$ in your hand, activate the citadel. Play the two +2$'s and your other citadel, buy province.

The concept is kind of weird because it synergizes with action cards, but it doesn't want engines that draw your deck. I think it's similar to Golem, but it seemes to be a lot better, mainly because it can play other Citadels. It seems op to me, but I'm not sure.

I think you may have missed that activation uses up an action all on its own.  Sawmill is certainly not strictly superior to Woodcutter.  If you only have a single Sawmill, it is actually strictly worse.  If you want Sawmill to be equivalent to a Woodcutter, you need to have played a village beforehand so that you can activate it on the turn it is played.  If you don't have the extra action, then Sawmill is stuck in play for at least one turn before you can activate it and get it back into your deck.  Activating it doesn't even give you anything if you don't have a second Sawmill in play.

To get any sort of advantage, you need to buy at least two Sawmills.  That in itself is an opportunity cost.  Then you need to play both, which may take a full shuffle to do.  Then you still need to wait until the effect is even useful, i.e. you have two terminals in hand that you want to play.  Meanwhile, any extra unplayed Sawmills you have are just more terminals clogging up your deck.

Given the amount of work needed to get anything useful out of Sawmill, $3 seems entirely appropriate.  I would actually criticize that it's probably too weak most of the time, except that there is some potential for it to fuel a megaturn combo.

But from an "excitement" standpoint, I do agree.  Woodcutter variants are a bit boring.  OTOH, the same can be said for pretty much any combination of vanilla bonuses, and not every card can do something entirely novel.  This is why ideas like the "Activation" typing are important -- they allow us to come up with interesting new cards without resorting to especially complex ideas.  The vanilla bonus on Sawmill isn't that important.  The question is whether the activation is interesting enough.  Is "finnicky village" compelling?  I'm not sure.  I think a pure village activation might be better, but maybe that's too easy... or, actually, too similar to Walled Village.




As for Citadel, it can only take cards from the discard pile so you would need $4 in hand AND the three other action cards to be in the discard for this to work.  Even when that works out, the chain does not last forever because you will reshuffle eventually.  Moreover, this only gets you one Province a turn, which can be strong but is not at all broken, especially considering that Citadel costs $6 and doesn't do anything when you first play.  For comparison, a Bishop-Chapel Golden Deck is easier to set up and far more reliable.  It is an interesting combo idea and shows how a card like Citadel has potential to add new strategy to the game.

Is it stronger than Golem?  Maybe.  But it does have drawbacks -- the extra action needed to activate it, and the fact that it ONLY looks in the discard pile.

At a glance, I don't think there's anything broken with Citadel.  My main concern is that it's potentially very swingy.  There are probably boards where Citadel would be an important part of an engine, but it's mostly luck that determines how early you can pull the trigger on it.  One player cycles through key actions early in their shuffle and also plays Citadels early, giving them an early activation.  Another player doesn't draw Citadel until the end of the shuffle and has no spare action to activate it, which means they have to wait through their NEXT shuffle until key actions go into the discard... it could be a difference of many, many turns advantage to one player just from shuffle luck.
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silverspawn

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2014, 10:55:44 pm »
+1

Quote
I think you may have missed that activation uses up an action all on its own.  Sawmill is certainly not strictly superior to Woodcutter.  If you only have a single Sawmill, it is actually strictly worse.  If you want Sawmill to be equivalent to a Woodcutter, you need to have played a village beforehand so that you can activate it on the turn it is played.  If you don't have the extra action, then Sawmill is stuck in play for at least one turn before you can activate it and get it back into your deck.  Activating it doesn't even give you anything if you don't have a second Sawmill in play.
no, i didnt' miss that. but samwill itself is in play when you activate it, so you get the +1action that you need to activate it right back when activating it. in other words, you can just activate it for no cost whenever you have at least one action left. so, the only scenario in which it's worse than woodcutter is if you reshuffle after the turn you played it, and you don't have any actions left. that's exactly what i said

Quote from: silverspawn
The only thing that makes it worse is that it'll miss the reshuffle if you play it as your last action right before a reshuffle.

you need at least two of them to have a village effect. I didn't say it was strong, I just said its almost strictly superior to woodcutter. This card:

"+2$, +1buy, you may look at the bottom card of your deck" for $3 is also strictly superior to woodcutter, but it's not strong.

You're right about citadel though. the combo isn't that good.

Tables

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2014, 10:59:17 pm »
+3

You say it's almost strictly superior because the only case it's worse is when you reshuffle right after playing. LFN says it's almost strictly worse because the only case it's better is when you get at least two in play and need the +2 actions from discarding both.

I say it's too similar to Woodcutter too often and maybe might be worth making a little different therefore.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:00:21 pm by Tables »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2014, 11:47:16 pm »
+1

You say it's almost strictly superior because the only case it's worse is when you reshuffle right after playing. LFN says it's almost strictly worse because the only case it's better is when you get at least two in play and need the +2 actions from discarding both.

I say it's too similar to Woodcutter too often and maybe might be worth making a little different therefore.

I'm not LFN!  I do agree that it's too similar to Woodcutter though.  Scavenger uses the same vanilla bonuses, but it has an immediate ability that differentiates it clearly.  Sawmill takes a lot of effort to get something different out of it.  I expect that, when purchased, it will more often than not be just for the +Buy rather than for the village possibility.  In order words, I think its primary use would be near-identical to Woodcutter, so it would be worth changing in some way.



@silverspawn, you are underestimating the disadvantage of missing the reshuffle.  It is a significant drawback, and the chance of it happening with a card like Sawmill is non-trivial.  I meant to mention this earlier but I got sidetracked in my rambling -- it doesn't only miss the reshuffle if you reshuffle on the turn it's played.  It will also happen if you cause a reshuffle during the next turn, which is very possible with draw cards and all the more likely if it's non-terminal draw.  It can happen even on the opponent's turn.  Off the top of my head -- Minion, Margrave, Possession, Governor, Council Room, Oracle, Scrying Pool.

Yes, in the big picture, you can consider the disadvantage of Sawmill vs. Woodcutter to be minor.  But the advantage is also small.  There is virtually no advantage* if you only purchase one, which adds significant opportunity cost if you want to make use of the activation effect.  The key point is that Woodcutter is not strictly superior nor strictly inferior to Woodcutter.  It would be overcosted at $4, but it is likely fine at $3.

*edge case: Sawmill can pseudo-trash itself if you simply never activate it.  This can actually be useful on some boards.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:48:37 pm by eHalcyon »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2014, 11:49:19 pm »
0

You say it's almost strictly superior because the only case it's worse is when you reshuffle right after playing. LFN says it's almost strictly worse because the only case it's better is when you get at least two in play and need the +2 actions from discarding both.

I say it's too similar to Woodcutter too often and maybe might be worth making a little different therefore.

What? I didn't say anything of the sort!  :D  I agree that it's similar to Woodcutter, though. At first I was going to make the on-play effect +2 Cards. Then I decided that +$2 would be better. Then I came up with the name Sawmill and tacked +1 Buy on there as a cute Woodcutter reference.

I agree that it could be more interesting. I like the fact that your first couple Sawmills jumpstart your economy, then can stay in play and act as village-helpers for future Sawmills. I may just raise the price, since the card does look better than Woodcutter. Then if it needs buffing, I'll try to buff it in an interesting way. The obvious buff is +1 Card on activation (along with however many Actions), but I'm not sure how I feel about that, as it's basically a Lab effect in your next hand. Maybe $4 is a fine cost for the card as it is now. Or maybe $2 is! I have no idea, as I have yet to playtest any Activations.

EDIT: Ninja'd be eHalcyon
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:51:25 pm by LastFootnote »
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Tables

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2014, 11:06:32 am »
0

Well you can both blame having such similar avatars (all black and orange with a little bright patch just above the middle)!
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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2014, 11:16:52 am »
+2

The key point is that Woodcutter is not strictly superior nor strictly inferior to Woodcutter.
Indeed. Woodcutter is strictly equal to Woodcutter.
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theory

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2014, 11:25:13 am »
+9

The key point is that Woodcutter is not strictly superior nor strictly inferior to Woodcutter.
Indeed. Woodcutter is strictly equal to Woodcutter.

Edge case -- not when one of them is actually a Band of Misfits.
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market squire

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2014, 01:44:38 pm »
+2

I also really like that idea for opening a huge new design space.
There have been some alike versions in the German forums, but it's a genious idea that it takes up an action to activate. Those similar types often had the problem to be too strong with Tactician or Minion (which we know from Black Market).

Why don't you use orange as colour for it? There are only so many distinguishable colours. The Activation type shares some basic features with the Duration type. Then, orange would mean "don't discard this in Cleanup if the card has yet something to do" and the difference between Duration and Activation could either be found in the card text or in the type line.

Some more ideas, spontaneously:

Quote
Walled Hamlet
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $2
+2 Cards.
When you activate this, +2 Actions.
Quote
Jewelry Trader
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $2
+$3.
When you activate this, put it into your hand.
Quote
Silver Merchant
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $4
While this is in play, when you gain a Silver, you may put it back to the supply and gain a card costing up to $5 that is not a Victory card.
When you activate this, gain a Silver.
Quote
Engineer
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Action.
When you activate this, discard your hand. If you do, +3 Cards, +1 Action.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2014, 02:03:40 pm »
0

I also really like that idea for opening a huge new design space.
There have been some alike versions in the German forums, but it's a genious idea that it takes up an action to activate. Those similar types often had the problem to be too strong with Tactician or Minion (which we know from Black Market).

This is interesting because when I came up with this concept, I was trying to decide whether or not Activation cards should take an Action to activate. The idea originally came from Donald's outtake Procession where you set aside it aside when you played it, then you could "activate" it when you played an Action card to play that Action card again. In order to duplicate that, I would have needed activation effects not to take up an Action (and indeed be playable when you had zero Actions left). However, when I tried to come up with other cards that used the mechanic, they all looked really bad. They had versatility, but the actual on-play and on-activate effects had to be weak in order for the cards not to be overpowered.

Conversely, making the activation effect take an Action let me make cards that looked much more powerful. I'm hoping there are some crazy effects that you can balance by making them "double terminals". Citadel (above) is an attempt at that.

Why don't you use orange as colour for it? There are only so many distinguishable colours. The Activation type shares some basic features with the Duration type. Then, orange would mean "don't discard this in Cleanup if the card has yet something to do" and the difference between Duration and Activation could either be found in the card text or in the type line.

I had considered using orange again for exactly this reason. I may still do that, but I feel like some people will say, "Orange? That's Duration's color."

Some more ideas, spontaneously:

Quote
Walled Hamlet
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $2
+2 Cards.
When you activate this, +2 Actions.
Quote
Jewelry Trader
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $2
+$3.
When you activate this, put it into your hand.
Quote
Silver Merchant
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $4
While this is in play, when you gain a Silver, you may put it back to the supply and gain a card costing up to $5 that is not a Victory card.
When you activate this, gain a Silver.
Quote
Engineer
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Action.
When you activate this, discard your hand. If you do, +3 Cards, +1 Action.

I think it would be cool to have at least one card that's terminal on play, but gives you Actions when you activate it, like Walled Hamlet. Sawmill (above) is my first attempt at that. I don't love Jewelry Trader, mostly because you need a village in the kingdom for the putting-into-hand to matter. Silver Merchant is a cool combination of effects, but I think the while-in-play effect is probably way too powerful in any kingdom with +Buy and/or ways to flood Silver. Engineer seems like a decent way to do a mulligan effect (like eHalcyon suggested).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2014, 02:20:57 pm »
0

Jewelry Trader is just a more powerful Diadem, which was already so variable that it was made a prize instead of a regular Kingdom card.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2014, 02:37:18 pm »
0

Jewelry Trader is just a more powerful Diadem, which was already so variable that it was made a prize instead of a regular Kingdom card.

Well, Jewelry Trader doesn't overcome Diadem until you have at least 3 actions remaining. But yeah it scales as $1.5/action instead of $1/action.
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market squire

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2014, 02:41:31 pm »
0

Conversely, making the activation effect take an Action let me make cards that looked much more powerful. I'm hoping there are some crazy effects that you can balance by making them "double terminals". Citadel (above) is an attempt at that.
That is also a good answer to those "-1 Action" ideas.
I had considered using orange again for exactly this reason. I may still do that, but I feel like some people will say, "Orange? That's Duration's color."
Green? That's Victory's color.

Jewelry Trader could also be:
Quote
Jewelry Trader
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $2
+$3.
When you activate this, put it on top of your deck.

What about a Tactician variant?
Quote
Grand Warehouse
Types: Action - Activation
Cost: $5
Discard two cards from your hand.
When you activate this, +3 Cards +1 Action.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 02:43:38 pm by market squire »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2014, 02:43:39 pm »
0

Green? That's Victory's color.

I was trying to get a sort of olive color. It ended up lime green. Ah well.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2014, 05:38:52 am »
+1

A potential idea for an Activation card would be a card with an Activation effect that benefits everyone. The reason it's better than a wash is that you're in control of when it happens, so you're likely to get the most benefit proportionally (eg you'll get just enough money to make a key purchase, or sift only when your hand is junk).

I try to explore that with my fan card "Scribe" (put "Events" that effect everyone on a secret mat that you can activate at the start of any turn), but this can be more pronounced.
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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2014, 04:20:04 am »
0

I am also very intrigued by this mechanic! I think these may be more similar to Duration cards than I noticed on first blush; they are essentially Duration cards where you pay an action to resolve the "next turn" ability on any next turn you like. I'm excited to volunteer myself as free playtesting and see how different they feel from Duration cards.

Also, because of the similarity, I recommend they be orange. Possibly they could even have type Duration; the rules say Duration cards stay in play until the last turn in which they do something, which seems to describe Activation cards. They could be potentially be rephrased to be pure Duration cards, e.g., "During the Action phase of a future turn, you may spend an action. If you do..." Definitely clunky and "spending actions" would have to be defined.

(But your Activation cards differ from Duration cards in their interaction with TR/KC, so maybe not Duration. Urrrgh. I still probably recommend orange.)
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Awaclus

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2014, 10:32:51 am »
0

I am also very intrigued by this mechanic! I think these may be more similar to Duration cards than I noticed on first blush; they are essentially Duration cards where you pay an action to resolve the "next turn" ability on any next turn you like. I'm excited to volunteer myself as free playtesting and see how different they feel from Duration cards.

Also, because of the similarity, I recommend they be orange. Possibly they could even have type Duration; the rules say Duration cards stay in play until the last turn in which they do something, which seems to describe Activation cards. They could be potentially be rephrased to be pure Duration cards, e.g., "During the Action phase of a future turn, you may spend an action. If you do..." Definitely clunky and "spending actions" would have to be defined.

(But your Activation cards differ from Duration cards in their interaction with TR/KC, so maybe not Duration. Urrrgh. I still probably recommend orange.)
I don't think it would work. The Activation cards don't have any on-play effects after the turn you play them, so they would be discarded anyway. Also, it's worth noting that you can play and activate an Activation on the same turn.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2014, 01:51:56 pm »
0

Duration and Activation mechanics are similar in some ways, but are different enough that I felt a new type was warranted. And in Dominion, types have unique colors. Some types (Attack, Looter, Knight) are colorless, but among the colored types, no two types share the same color. Perhaps the lime green wasn't the best choice, but I have no regrets about using a different color than the Duration orange.
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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2014, 09:56:13 pm »
+1

The rules don't seem to stipulate the Duration effects need to be on-play... And certainly a new type shouldn't be the same color as another; I was just suggesting you could get away with calling them "Action - Duration - Activation" and piggy-backing off Duration's orange color (because we're kinda running out of colors!). But ultimately the color is cosmetic, so as long as you like it, that's good enough for me!

Also, great job as always with the card mock ups!
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Awaclus

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2014, 10:03:38 pm »
+3

The rules don't seem to stipulate the Duration effects need to be on-play...
But they do. If they didn't, Lighthouse would never leave play.
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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2014, 12:06:01 am »
+1

The rules don't seem to stipulate the Duration effects need to be on-play...
But they do. If they didn't, Lighthouse would never leave play.

Well... dang. Just when I thought I'd thought everything through. Makes me appreciate the subtleties of Duration cards.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2014, 08:11:11 pm »
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It's been quite some time since I last posted on this thread but I still think it's a cool idea and it's good to see that you are continuously working on the concept. What are your plans with Activation cards? Do you want to include some in Enterprise? (Boomtown seems like it fits the one-shot theme best.)
The images you made for the cards look good as always. Where do you get those illustrations from, if I may ask? I like the colour choice but I can see people confusing it with Action-Victory cards or something... and orange seems to similar to Durations. What about purple? If you chose a nice shade of purple it should different enough from Reactions and all other card types.
I would like to say more about the cards themselves but I don't feel comfortable enough with the whole concept in realtion to the meta-game in order to evaluate the cards properly.
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soulnet

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2014, 09:21:41 pm »
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