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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2014, 05:29:35 pm »
+1

"When you play or activate this, +3 Cards." Boom, no need for a second line. Which is good, because I will personally never make a card with two dividing lines.

OK, but what if you want a while-in-play or start-of-turn effect but don't want the activation to be the same as the on-play, e.g. +2 Cards initially, +4 cards on activation?  I guess that just has to summarily ruled out?

For any cards I personally make, yes. Or rather, mostly. I might do:

[Vanilla bonus]. When you play or activate this, [some effect].

[Trigger], [some other effect].

So they don't have to be exactly identical. But my opinion is that if your card needs two dividing lines, it's too complex. I guess if there were some really compelling reason to have three completely different effects on a card, yet all three were really simple, I might do it. But in general I don't. That's just how I roll.

EDIT: This could be used for a card that gives +1 action and makes the opponents reveal their hands on play and has a hand attack on activation, that would be pretty cool. If they currently have a hand that you want to attack, you can activate it immediately, or you can wait for next turn when they possibly have a better hand.

With 2 players, that sounds cool. With more players, that sounds political.
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Awaclus

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 05:37:27 pm »
+1

With 2 players, that sounds cool. With more players, that sounds political.
Right. Damn those who play Dominion with more than two players.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2014, 05:50:40 pm »
0

Perhaps not the best idea, but an option is to have an activation along the lines of:

When you activate this, each other player discards down to 3 cards in his hand.  (Treat this activation as an attack being played.)
Or you could play a card from a non-supply pile, like Spoils.

Good idea.  It might be a bit tricky to word properly, but it would probably be easier to understand and have less potential for strange complications with other cards.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2014, 05:53:24 pm »
+3

There seems to be quite a lot that could be done with this type of card because it just stays out.  You could start modifying rules significantly. 

You could consider a card that makes all other players play with their hand exposed as long as it stays out.  Perhaps try to balance it by giving it a huge negative as long as it's deactivated. 

Or maybe have something that increases the price of everything.. you could play it during a turn where you know you're not buying anything (Tactician, other Activation cards that let you set up for next turn), have your opponent suffer through their buy phase, and then activate it on your next turn.  Or the reverse.. play it, play a bunch of trash-for-benefit cards, then activate it.

Or have everyone draw an extra card during their cleanup phase.. those sorts of things.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2014, 09:29:05 pm »
+3

Interestingly, activation is a way to implement the popular fan concept of permanent durations.  I think it's actually more elegant and flexible than using the actual Duration type.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2014, 09:52:56 pm »
0

Interestingly, activation is a way to implement the popular fan concept of permanent durations.  I think it's actually more elegant and flexible than using the actual Duration type.

Yeah, that's more or less what I tried to do with Patron. It's tough coming up with such effects that wouldn't be overpowered.
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Abel_K

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2014, 06:33:25 am »
+1

Great Idea, these Activation cards !
Of course I couldn't resist to test them ... (because of a benign accident, I'm immobilized at home with Dominion [poor of me !!!])

So I had a mock play really fun. Allow me to write some comments, questions and propositions :

- Hidden Passage and Boomtown work preaty well. We agree that the 2nd action can be the Activation ? (I think I read something like that...). They renew very well the "classics"
- I didn't have "time" to test really Balcony. Perhaps less "evident" to use it; I have to study!
- Patron goes well, too. I had an interesting interaction with a Reaction card (the Attack was Torturer, but could be Militia of course). The player had both Patron in play and Secret Chamber in hand. Well , do you thik there might be an order to do the effects ?

2 ideas now :
1. One could imagine an "Action-Activation-Attack card" (the famous AAA ! ;D), where the Activation would be to discard the Activation cards of other players that are not yet activated ! Swingy, isn't it ? (and very badly worded... :-[)
2. Couldn't we imagine a penalty for players that have inactivated cards in ply when the game ends ? For example -1VP for each of these cards. It could add problems of strategy in endgames.

Have a good day!
Abel
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soulnet

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2014, 08:53:40 am »
0

"When you play or activate this, +3 Cards." Boom, no need for a second line. Which is good, because I will personally never make a card with two dividing lines.

I agree that the Noble Brigand trick is better than the dividing line in this case, but, why not make cards with two dividing lines? Even a vainilla "Action-Reaction-Victory" seems reasonable.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2014, 10:51:30 am »
+2

"When you play or activate this, +3 Cards." Boom, no need for a second line. Which is good, because I will personally never make a card with two dividing lines.

I agree that the Noble Brigand trick is better than the dividing line in this case, but, why not make cards with two dividing lines? Even a vainilla "Action-Reaction-Victory" seems reasonable.

The three reasons are:

• There's only so much space on the card.
• I think having two dividing lines looks ugly.
• Even if the three bits are simple, the resulting card seems very complex.

I'm not even sure how you'd color a Action – Reaction – Victory. The reasoning for having white so that you remember you can play it still holds, so you'd probably want to use all three colors. Eugh.

I challenge you to create a card with all three of those types that wouldn't be made better by cutting out one or more of the parts.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 10:57:25 am by LastFootnote »
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Awaclus

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2014, 02:26:49 pm »
0

Would there be a need for two lines? Can't you just do this?

Mighty Smitty
Action - Activation
+3 Cards
---
When you activate this, +3 Cards.

At the start of your turn, if this is in play, discard a card.


From the current official cards, we can tell that you need the line between victory points and other stuff and between the Action's/Treasures on-play effects and other stuff. There isn't a card that has two "triggered abilities", but if there was one, it arguably wouldn't need a line between them. Doesn't solve the complexity issue, though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2014, 02:30:36 pm »
0

Question: would it be a good idea to replace "when you would activate this" with a simpley keyword, "Activate"?

Example:

Balcony
$5 Action - Activation
+1 Card
+1 Action
Activate: discard a card.

Pros:

- Saves space by cutting out extra words.
- Can work without a separating line, thus opening up more designs space for those who don't like having cards with multiple separating lines. ;)

Cons:

- Makes it more difficult to do a "when you would activate" effect.
- Arguably inconsistent with other Dominion mechanics.  For example, on-gain effects could have been written with a keyword too: "On-gain: gain a card costing less than this."
- Arguably looks clunky, especially on cards that have plenty of room for the extra text.




Side question -- what do you guys think of a "when you would activate this, do X instead" effect?  From how I imagine it would work, this would basically force the card to be a permanent-duration while also giving you an effect that you would be able to play as many times as you want, so long as you have the actions to support it.  The rules would have to specify that the action is still used up even though the card is not actually activated.

Would this be too crazy?  IIRC, Donald said that Diadem was incredibly OP on some boards and so would simply not work as a regular supply card.  A would-activate effect would be a lot like Diadem.


2 ideas now :
2. Couldn't we imagine a penalty for players that have inactivated cards in ply when the game ends ? For example -1VP for each of these cards. It could add problems of strategy in endgames.

That's pretty interesting.  I like it.
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soulnet

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2014, 07:56:40 am »
0

Side question -- what do you guys think of a "when you would activate this, do X instead" effect?  From how I imagine it would work, this would basically force the card to be a permanent-duration while also giving you an effect that you would be able to play as many times as you want, so long as you have the actions to support it.  The rules would have to specify that the action is still used up even though the card is not actually activated.

If you want to just avoid the card getting discarded, then you can simply "When you activate this, do X and then put the card in play again." (notice the "put in play" instead of "play", although the precise wording may be changed and probably needs FAQ). This is almost the same effect but without would-weirdness. This works in place of would-activate for the card with the text and also others, as replaying them or reputting them into play works in other cards as well.

Come to think about it, Trader could just say "When you gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, return the gained card to the supply and gain a Silver." It would work differently with on-gain effects and non-supply cards, but be mostly equivalent and avoid the would-weirdness.

It seems to me that most "would" effects can be replaced be leaving the effect and "rewinding" it afterwards.
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Gveoniz

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2014, 09:59:34 am »
0

Come to think about it, Trader could just say "When you gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, return the gained card to the supply and gain a Silver." It would work differently with on-gain effects and non-supply cards, but be mostly equivalent and avoid the would-weirdness.

It seems to me that most "would" effects can be replaced be leaving the effect and "rewinding" it afterwards.
I think having a "would-less" trader and watchtower may allow one to gain and trash/top-deck the entire pile of silver.

soulnet

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2014, 10:09:37 am »
0

Come to think about it, Trader could just say "When you gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, return the gained card to the supply and gain a Silver." It would work differently with on-gain effects and non-supply cards, but be mostly equivalent and avoid the would-weirdness.

It seems to me that most "would" effects can be replaced be leaving the effect and "rewinding" it afterwards.
I think having a "would-less" trader and watchtower may allow one to gain and trash/top-deck the entire pile of silver.

Good catch. We can add another if you do clause so you can only gain Silver if you did return the gained card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2014, 03:59:38 pm »
+1

Question: would it be a good idea to replace "when you would activate this" with a simpley keyword, "Activate"?

Example:

Balcony
$5 Action - Activation
+1 Card
+1 Action
Activate: discard a card.

Pros:

- Saves space by cutting out extra words.
- Can work without a separating line, thus opening up more designs space for those who don't like having cards with multiple separating lines. ;)

Cons:

- Makes it more difficult to do a "when you would activate" effect.
- Arguably inconsistent with other Dominion mechanics.  For example, on-gain effects could have been written with a keyword too: "On-gain: gain a card costing less than this."
- Arguably looks clunky, especially on cards that have plenty of room for the extra text.

In my opinion, the cons outweigh the pros here. I'm for defining some terms in the rules as a shorthand, especially if they're used often. In would have been nice if "dig" were defined, for instance. "Activate" is already such a term, though, and I think having the rest written out makes the game more user-friendly (and, as you say, is consistent with other similar effects).


Side question -- what do you guys think of a "when you would activate this, do X instead" effect?  From how I imagine it would work, this would basically force the card to be a permanent-duration while also giving you an effect that you would be able to play as many times as you want, so long as you have the actions to support it.  The rules would have to specify that the action is still used up even though the card is not actually activated.

Would this be too crazy?  IIRC, Donald said that Diadem was incredibly OP on some boards and so would simply not work as a regular supply card.  A would-activate effect would be a lot like Diadem.

I would not necessarily rule out a card that you could activate as many times as you want, but for sure I am not doing one just to do it. It would have to be the best way to do some compelling thing, and even in that case, an Action that puts itself back into your hand is arguably better.


2 ideas now :
2. Couldn't we imagine a penalty for players that have inactivated cards in ply when the game ends ? For example -1VP for each of these cards. It could add problems of strategy in endgames.

That's pretty interesting.  I like it.

I see no good reason to do this and lots of reasons not to. For one thing it's another rule in the rulebook, because it's definitely not being printed on each Activation card. It's also an easy rule to forget, which isn't a deal breaker, but also isn't great. If every card were like Boomtown, where the Activation effect is just a buyback ability, I could maybe see using this rule (and rebalancing the cards around it). But for other Activation cards you're already being penalized for not getting around to activating them. This rule would just exacerbate that penalty. Why?

I guess I understand the "increases endgame strategy" argument, but Dominion already strongly rewards endgame control, and I don't think it needs another push in that direction. If I did specifically want to favor endgame strategy, I would do it with some sort of bonus, as opposed to a penalty. A penalty is likely to make players not buy the card in the first place. But I don't think Activation cards specifically need an endgame bonus either.

Speaking of Boomtown and penalties, I'm thinking that perhaps "When you activate this, discard a card" should be replaced with "When you activate this, put a card from your hand on top of your deck." I think in general it might weaken the card, but overall I think it's a good change that adds another strategic element. I've learned to be wary of nonterminal cards that put cards back on your deck because it's really annoying to draw two cards, put one back, draw two cards, put one back, draw two cards, put one back, etc. But I think Boomtown would probably be fine because you're usually doing all your drawing first and then put cards back on your deck at the end of your turn, depending on how many cards and Actions you're willing to spend.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 04:01:11 pm by LastFootnote »
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soulnet

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2014, 07:05:58 pm »
+3

For the endgame, I feel like if you want to do the bonus/penalty for leaving a card deactivated at the end, it is better to do it on a card designed for that, instead of tacking that on the entire type. You can have a VP Activation that is worth different amounts depending on whether it ends the game activated or not, for instance.

LF, I find your comment about putting cards back with drawing non-terminals quite strange. If you are putting a card back and drawing right after, I would say that simplifies anything, because you do not have a decision to make, and IRL you can even not put the card on the deck properly, just say you do or mimic that without actually doing it carefully, leaving the card, and then putting your hand back on the deck to draw.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2014, 12:51:51 am »
+3

Finally mocked up the four cards in the OP for testing.

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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2014, 01:01:11 am »
+3

Nice colour choice!
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Awaclus

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2014, 08:16:19 am »
+2

I thought they were Victory cards at first.
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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2014, 09:30:41 am »
0

I thought they were Victory cards at first.

yea me too. I guess once you're used to it it won't be a problem, they look plenty different

LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2014, 03:56:34 pm »
+1

New iteration of Cannoneer:

Quote
Catapult
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $4
When you play or activate this: +2 Cards.

When you gain this, you may gain an Engineer from the Engineer pile.

Engineer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $0*
Activate all your dormant Catapults. For each one, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it. If he didn't, he gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)


EDIT: I meant to respond to this a while ago, but forgot:

- Patron goes well, too. I had an interesting interaction with a Reaction card (the Attack was Torturer, but could be Militia of course). The player had both Patron in play and Secret Chamber in hand. Well , do you thik there might be an order to do the effects ?

In this case, you may choose the order to resolve the effects. To maximize your advantage, you'd normally reveal your Secret Chamber first, then do the Patron effect, then reveal your Secret Chamber again. Hopefully it doesn't come up that often, because that sounds time consuming.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 04:32:54 pm by LastFootnote »
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silverspawn

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2014, 04:31:20 pm »
+1

New iteration of Cannoneer:

Quote
Catapult
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $4
When you play or activate this: +2 Cards.

When you gain this, you may gain an Engineer

Engineer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $0*
Activate all your dormant Catapults. For each one, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it. If he didn't, he gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)


EDIT: I meant to respond to this a while ago, but forgot:

- Patron goes well, too. I had an interesting interaction with a Reaction card (the Attack was Torturer, but could be Militia of course). The player had both Patron in play and Secret Chamber in hand. Well , do you thik there might be an order to do the effects ?

In this case, you may choose the order to resolve the effects. To maximize your advantage, you'd normally reveal your Secret Chamber first, then do the Patron effect, then reveal your Secret Chamber again. Hopefully it doesn't come up that often, because that sounds time consuming.

you swapped them. that's interesting... so, catapult is a moat on play. engineer is a moat with an attack if it hits one catapult, or hunting grounds with a double attack if it hits two. the attack is a swindler for coppers, a negative rebuild/mine for victory cards/treasures and a slight downgrade for actions. How good it is probably depends on how many action cards there are, if there's no 2$ and you hit a fishing village or sth, it's really strong, but if you just turn a $4 into a $3 not so much. Hitting Coppers is good. Hitting estates is less good, but at least not as bad as with swindler. Hitting curses is just like with swindler, but worse if there aren't any left. Hitting shelters is decent though. Hitting provinces near the end is pretty good, but still reasonable.

Overall it seems strong, but not necssarily op. I imagine it playing similar to swindler, but the fact that it draws makes it different. it's also harder to set up, but more rewarding

LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2014, 04:37:59 pm »
0

New iteration of Cannoneer:

Quote
Catapult
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $4
When you play or activate this: +2 Cards.

When you gain this, you may gain an Engineer

Engineer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $0*
Activate all your dormant Catapults. For each one, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it. If he didn't, he gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

you swapped them. that's interesting... so, catapult is a moat on play. engineer is a moat with an attack if it hits one catapult, or hunting grounds with a double attack if it hits two. the attack is a swindler for coppers, a negative rebuild/mine for victory cards/treasures and a slight downgrade for actions. How good it is probably depends on how many action cards there are, if there's no 2$ and you hit a fishing village or sth, it's really strong, but if you just turn a $4 into a $3 not so much. Hitting Coppers is good. Hitting estates is less good, but at least not as bad as with swindler. Hitting curses is just like with swindler, but worse if there aren't any left. Hitting shelters is decent though. Hitting provinces near the end is pretty good, but still reasonable.

Overall it seems strong, but not necssarily op. I imagine it playing similar to swindler, but the fact that it draws makes it different. it's also harder to set up, but more rewarding

The reason I swapped them is that in general you want more Catapults than Engineers. So now you have the option of gaining an Engineer when you gain a Catapult, but it's not mandatory. You may want to pick up a spare in case one gets hit by a Catapult. Worst case scenario, if there are no more Catapults in the Supply and all your Engineers are trashed, you can just leave your Catapults in play so that they don't clog your deck.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2014, 06:05:13 pm »
+1

Dormant?  I mean, it works, but I think "unactivated" would be better.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Activation Cards
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2014, 06:30:10 pm »
0

Dormant?  I mean, it works, but I think "unactivated" would be better.

OK, fair enough. I'm just playing around with different terms. I was using "deactivated" earlier. Obviously "unactivated" is more correct, so I'll go with that.

In other news, here are some ideas I had for other Activation cards. I haven't yet given these as much thought as the ones in the OP, so feedback would be great.

Quote
Sawmill
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $3
+1 Buy. +$2.
------------------------------------------------------------
When you activate this, +1 Action per Sawmill you have in play.

Quote
Citadel
Types: Action – Activation
Cost: $6
When you activate this, look through your discard pile. Set aside up to 3 Action cards from it and play them in any order.

Usually I dislike Tutor-style cards, but the fact that this only looks in your discard pile might be OK.
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