Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [All]

Author Topic: Finally went pro...I lost.  (Read 4517 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tolenmar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Finally went pro...I lost.
« on: March 03, 2014, 12:12:48 pm »
0

But I did better than I expected, I thought I had a chance right up until the end.


http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140303/log.50c7ef2fe4b01531d0686840.1393866459689.txt
Logged

tolenmar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 03:32:19 pm »
+3

No commentary?

I've got a long way to go to get good at this, and I was really hoping someone would give me something to work with. I'll never make it to the top of the charts (I don't play that often), but I gotta get up out of the 300's.

...you guys have no idea how tough it was for me to try a pro game and then chat about it here.  I have this thing usually about playing online with strangers (silly, I know, but there it is).

Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11202
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11878
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 03:53:10 pm »
0

You should have bought the Ambassador much earlier, preferably on turn 1. Also, I think the turn 3 Lighthouse buy is a little weird, that could've been another Tournament instead, and you should have gotten more Margraves or Council Rooms since you have so many Wandering Minstrels and Squires.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

JacquesTheBard

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 246
  • Respect: +249
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 03:55:52 pm »
0

We actually don't know if you're Eric the Great or Chris Redman. So, there's that.

As for the board, neither player exploits it to the full extent. Ambassador is key here, because it's Ambassador, but remember that it doesn't work on shelters. Tournament is good, villages are present, and there's good draw, too. The big thing for this board is Lighthouse, and Horn of Plenty. Horn of Plenty is a clear win condition. There are so many cards here that work great in any deck you could want, which makes it pretty easy to raise the value on Horn of Plenty to 5, and then to 8. Get one soon, and pick up as many as you can with a decent draw engine. The power of a megaturn is substantial enough that I might not pick up a province for Tournament, except for the fact that Princess makes the Horn megaturn much easier. Lighthouse is good because you can draw and play it consistently here, it defends against Ambassador, and most interestingly, it interferes with the discard attacks that would hose you otherwise. Councilroom with Margrave and Ghostship creates a lot of turns where you give your opponent plenty of extra cards in hand, only to take them all away, plus interest. Lighthouse prevents the discard, immediately raising the liability on Council Room and Margrave. Both players must decide whether or not to build their decks around Ghost Ship, and experience weaker draw, or Margrave/Councilroom, and risk enemy Lighthouses. Finally, if you were the player with Ambassador, send back copper here wherever you can. The less crap you have in your deck, the better. Return 2 coppers over 1 estate, and if nothing else, return a single copper over 0 overgrown estates.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 04:09:59 pm »
+2

First, thanks for posting.

Tldr: Ambassador is strong!

I think this board is clearly an engine with Amb, Tournament, Village, Margrave, Lighthouse, HoP.  So I think your mistake was
Code: [Select]
Chris Rebman: turn 1
Chris Rebman plays 3 Copper
Chris Rebman buys Silver

You really want to get an Ambassador, to clear out your Coppers/Shelters to get an engine going an increase the chance of Tournament/Province collision, and get some of these into your opponents deck as long as they can't play Lighthouses every turn.

My plan would be to win the Ambassador war, for this open Amb/Lighthouse or Amb/Amb to get rid of Coppers (maybe keep one for HoPs). I would probably do the first and get a second Ambassador later.  From this try to build on again, probably with Tournaments if my opponent does not have lots of Provinces already.  The prizes are not that threatening, Followers is partly countered by an engine with Ambassador, and hard-countered by an engine with two Lighthouses.  The steed is nice but non-essential, Princess is strong in an engine but underrated, so you will probably get it anyway against most opponents that prefer Followers/Steed, even if you are not the first to pick a prize. [edit: also, if your opponent goes the direct way to Provinces, Princess is not that valuable for them as it is to you] In summary, not so bad here if you lose on prizes, though you really want Princess.

Stay as light on Treasure as you can afford, get some HoPs asap, get them to $5 should be easy (Mistrel, Magrave, Tournament, Lighthouse, itself), and to $8 also not hard with some Prizes and Treasure and Amb and Necro.  Get the engine running to draw the whole deck, get a second Lighthouse to play one every turn and be immune to attacks. If you opponent doesn't do this, get a Margrave and a GhostShip  [edit: and CouncilRooms], which should be really strong in combination, consider cursing with Ambassador if you are desperate.

For the endgame look if you are behind or not, either get enough HoPs to overtake and end the game or look for 3pile endings.


I think both of you went into Provinces for Tournaments too early in this game, where it more or less becomes a coin flip on who gets the Followers for this kind of game. Your opponents Ambassador probably helped them by increasing the chance of colliding.  More consequent cleaning and building up should give the better chances in this kingdom, as in the end they relyably collide Provinces/Tournaments, lets you play guaranteed Lighthouses and powers up HoPs. Even if you are behind, there is plenty of opportunity to come back via Duchies with Tournaments and HoPs.

But of course, there are lots of parts that have to fit together for this kind of engines, but its worth trying, because in the end, they are not only the more powerful decks, but more fun, too...



« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 04:32:46 pm by DStu »
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 04:10:32 pm »
+2

We actually don't know if you're Eric the Great or Chris Redman. So, there's that.

Quote
Goko username: Chris Rebman
Logged

WalrusMcFishSr

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • An enormous walrus the size of Antarctica
  • Respect: +1791
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 04:25:20 pm »
+3

I'll leave the actual advice to the real Dominion players, but I did want to say congrats on trying pro...I know what you mean, I played against nothing but bots for the longest time, and I still do now and again. But matching wits with humans is ultimately much more fun and satisfying :)
Logged
My Dominion videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/WalrusMcFishSr   <---Bet you can't click on that!

tolenmar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2014, 04:42:24 pm »
0

See that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I usually open silver because if I don't, I seem to fall behind even faster.

I really need practice in seeing all of the connections before I start, but don't know how to improve that skill.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 04:46:25 pm »
+1

See that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I usually open silver because if I don't, I seem to fall behind even faster.

I really need practice in seeing all of the connections before I start, but don't know how to improve that skill.

Try, and post here with your thoughts...

Also:
http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/01/21/the-five-fundamental-deck-types-introduction/ (and links therein)
http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/
http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/07/actionscards/

http://dominionstrategy.com/category/general-strategy/articles/
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11202
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11878
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 04:57:22 pm »
0

See that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I usually open silver because if I don't, I seem to fall behind even faster.
You might fall behind for a while, but if it's Ambassador or another card that gets rid of your bad cards that you're buying instead of Silver, you'll catch up later.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1371
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 05:10:12 pm »
0

See that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I usually open silver because if I don't, I seem to fall behind even faster.
You might fall behind for a while, but if it's Ambassador or another card that gets rid of your bad cards that you're buying instead of Silver, you'll catch up later.

This. Is really not hard to catch up if you trash and get an engine going. Don't get caught up with thinking "oh no, he has 2 provinces on me!" I've played games where my opponent gets 3 Provinces before me, but I get an engine going and hit hard with attacks, buying the rest of the Provinces+Duchies.

Of course it takes lots of games to get good. I've played a couple thousand on Goko and hundreds in real life.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4070
  • Respect: +2611
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 05:42:10 pm »
0

Ambassador is very painful for the economy here and only the potential quality of the engine makes it worthwhile. Council room or ghost ship would otherwise rush ahead of an ambassador deck in a shelters+ treasure kingdom. This kingdom has everything in place for a great engine though plus lighthouse at cost 2 to get past the painful start.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 05:57:15 pm »
+1

Councilroom with Margrave and Ghostship creates a lot of turns where you give your opponent plenty of extra cards in hand, only to take them all away, plus interest. Lighthouse prevents the discard, immediately raising the liability on Council Room and Margrave.

You don't want Council Room because of Lighthouse. Margrave also isn't a liability against Lighthouse because it gets blocked completely, meaning that the opponent doesn't get to draw a card.
Logged

popsofctown

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5356
  • Respect: +2752
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 09:58:07 pm »
0

What does "go pro" mean?
Logged
Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11202
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11878
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 10:05:48 pm »
0

What does "go pro" mean?
It means playing a game where the kingdom isn't visible before the game starts.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1066
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1973
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 10:08:02 pm »
+10

Wait, you guys aren't getting paid? I should hook you up with some of my sponsors.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

tolenmar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2014, 10:31:33 am »
0

Hey, if there's money to be made, sign me up!

I may be terrible at it, but at least I'm consistent!
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7092
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9371
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2014, 12:02:35 pm »
+1

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't Amb/Tournament one of the top, if not the top, opening?
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Respect: +6034
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2014, 12:07:26 pm »
+1

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't Amb/Tournament one of the top, if not the top, opening?

Indeed: Tournament/Ambassador was the second strongest opening in the game pre-Dark Ages, and the strongest 4/3 opening.
Logged

tolenmar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2014, 01:29:32 pm »
0

Geez, It's that good?

I got a lot to learn. I didn't know about that combo, and a week or two back missed the bishop/fortress golden deck.

I must look like an idiot =)
Logged

AHoppy

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
  • Respect: +528
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 01:36:45 pm »
+1

What does "go pro" mean?
It's a type of small camera that is nearly indestructible that is used to usually capture extreme sports due to its lightweight and easily attachable properties as well as its indestructible nature.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11202
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11878
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 03:04:51 pm »
0

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't Amb/Tournament one of the top, if not the top, opening?
I wonder if it's actually the best opening in an Amb/Tournament game, or if it's up there only because some people who didn't open Tournament ended up never buying a Tournament.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Titandrake

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2128
  • Respect: +2674
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2014, 05:23:30 pm »
0

My guess is that it's just that good. It's always superior to Amb/Silver, or I can't think of a situation where I'd rather have the Silver than the ability to cycle 1 more card and get free money. Amb/Amb thins faster, but it probably slows your economy down too much in the race for first Province.
Logged
I have a blog! It's called Sorta Insightful. Check it out?

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3594
  • Respect: +6034
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2014, 09:01:08 pm »
+5

Geez, It's that good?

I got a lot to learn. I didn't know about that combo, and a week or two back missed the bishop/fortress golden deck.

I must look like an idiot =)

Dude.  You have no idea what kind of idiocy we've all pulled!  Even now most of us still make bonehead suboptimal plays.  The important thing is that you're figuring this stuff out now :)

But yes, Ambassador is glorious with Tournament for three reasons:

1) It improves the chance of your own Tournament collision by shrinking your deck;
2) It lowers the chance of their Tournament collision by bloating their deck;
3) The two can't be 'drawn dead' together because Tournament gives +1 Action.
Logged

KingZog3

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3163
  • Respect: +1371
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2014, 09:13:06 pm »
0

Geez, It's that good?

I got a lot to learn. I didn't know about that combo, and a week or two back missed the bishop/fortress golden deck.

I must look like an idiot =)

Dude.  You have no idea what kind of idiocy we've all pulled!  Even now most of us still make bonehead suboptimal plays.  The important thing is that you're figuring this stuff out now :)

Theory's completely right. Just yesterday I could have ended the game on a win guaranteed, but just bought another Province. My opponent caught up the next turn and won. So don't feel bad about making a bad play. It's actually good you know they are bad plays. Many players don't even know, like the opponent who played Pirate Ship when there was Tactician, Mystic, Festival on a Colony board. Thanks for trashing my Copper!
Logged

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1094
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2014, 09:46:08 pm »
0

I once opened Mint on a 5/2 split, pre-Hinterlands (ie no Fools Gold), knowing full well what Mint's on-gain was.

My brain apparently had no problem thinking both "trashing 5 coppers is awesome!" and "I have 7 coin in my deck!" at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 10:05:45 pm by Voltaire »
Logged

GeoLib

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 965
  • Respect: +1263
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 10:05:16 pm »
0

I once opened Mint on a 5/2 split, pre-Dark Ages (ie no Fools Gold), knowing full well what Mint's on-gain was.

My brain apparently had no problem thinking both "trashing 5 coppers is awesome!" and "I have 7 coin in my deck!" at the same time.

Fool's Gold is in Hinterlands...  ???
Logged
"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1094
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2014, 10:06:12 pm »
+1

Fool's Gold is in Hinterlands...  ???

There was vodka involved.

I'm not sure what my excuse is today, though.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11202
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (ด。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11878
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2014, 10:57:58 pm »
+4

Fool's Gold is in Hinterlands...  ???

There was vodka involved.

I'm not sure what my excuse is today, though.
You're clearly suffering from a lack of vodka.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

tolenmar

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 121
  • Respect: +45
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2014, 10:28:43 am »
0

Geez, It's that good?

I got a lot to learn. I didn't know about that combo, and a week or two back missed the bishop/fortress golden deck.

I must look like an idiot =)

Dude.  You have no idea what kind of idiocy we've all pulled!  Even now most of us still make bonehead suboptimal plays.  The important thing is that you're figuring this stuff out now :)

But yes, Ambassador is glorious with Tournament for three reasons:

1) It improves the chance of your own Tournament collision by shrinking your deck;
2) It lowers the chance of their Tournament collision by bloating their deck;
3) The two can't be 'drawn dead' together because Tournament gives +1 Action.

Well, I didn't say I was an idiot, just that I look like one. =)

I've read the articles, I've watched videos, but it's like when I tried to improve my chess game. Reading those diagrams and notes and famous old games didn't help one bit.  For some reason I couldn't get the new stuff into my head.

That's what's happening here.  I read the articles and watch the videos, and I understand them.  But when it comes to time to play, it's all gone, and all I have left is the kingdom in front of me, and an opponent I hope doesn't get too angry at me for playing dumb.

Everything you say about amb/tourn sounds good and makes a lot of sense, but when I sit at the table...nothing. I guess I just learn differently.  If I had the time to dedicate to playing multiple games per day against live opponents, I'm sure I would improve much more quickly. But I can't.  It's gonna be a slow crawl (and doesn't the rating system punish you for not playing every day?)
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3746
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2323
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2014, 12:19:15 pm »
0

Geez, It's that good?

I got a lot to learn. I didn't know about that combo, and a week or two back missed the bishop/fortress golden deck.

I must look like an idiot =)

Dude.  You have no idea what kind of idiocy we've all pulled!  Even now most of us still make bonehead suboptimal plays.  The important thing is that you're figuring this stuff out now :)

But yes, Ambassador is glorious with Tournament for three reasons:

1) It improves the chance of your own Tournament collision by shrinking your deck;
2) It lowers the chance of their Tournament collision by bloating their deck;
3) The two can't be 'drawn dead' together because Tournament gives +1 Action.

Well, I didn't say I was an idiot, just that I look like one. =)

I've read the articles, I've watched videos, but it's like when I tried to improve my chess game. Reading those diagrams and notes and famous old games didn't help one bit.  For some reason I couldn't get the new stuff into my head.

That's what's happening here.  I read the articles and watch the videos, and I understand them.  But when it comes to time to play, it's all gone, and all I have left is the kingdom in front of me, and an opponent I hope doesn't get too angry at me for playing dumb.

Everything you say about amb/tourn sounds good and makes a lot of sense, but when I sit at the table...nothing. I guess I just learn differently.  If I had the time to dedicate to playing multiple games per day against live opponents, I'm sure I would improve much more quickly. But I can't.  It's gonna be a slow crawl (and doesn't the rating system punish you for not playing every day?)
I think it's always more rewarding to make decisions that you believe to be correct. You won't learn very quickly at all if you let another player gives the answers for you without understanding why they are good decisions. Because Dominion has way too many boards for one to know how to play optimally, the real way to improve is to change the way you see the game.

For example, Amb/Tournament is good, but you might still lose with it if you open with it because "this guy said it was the best opening". You still have to know what it's trying to accomplish and not miss any super combos available on the board.

I'm guessing you might learn best by analyzing your own games. Pay the most attention to the lessons learned through your own games. Continue to post them here for feedback when something is not clear to you.

Also, Goko's rating drift (drop in Goko ranking over time) is not nearly as severe as it once was.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3384
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2641
    • View Profile
Re: Finally went pro...I lost.
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2014, 06:14:20 pm »
+1

I wonder how much of a win rate Hermit/Hermit has...
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm
Pages: 1 2 [All]
 

Page created in 0.158 seconds with 22 queries.