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prom_vrt

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Discussion: Get a second curser
« on: March 02, 2014, 11:38:43 am »
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Besides junkers that are effective with many copies (Familiar, Cultist and sometimes Mountebank)

Is it usually an effective strategy to buy more than one copy of Witch or Marauder?

Good Point:
- Attack more often, usually means more junks to the opponent(s) and less to me.

Bad Point:
- High opportunity cost instead of buying something else useful.
- After curses (ruins) run out, my hand has more card that outlives the usefulness. (especially Sea Hag)
- If two copies collide, one curser will be dead.

On some games I see my opponent buys more than one curser and curses tend to split 7-3 or 6-4 to me but only in some games that I lose.

Any discussion? Is it good to get 2nd copy of curser? Compare them on board 1) no or very weak trashing 2) moderate trashing/TFB available 3)strong trashing
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:42:56 am by prom_vrt »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 12:16:03 pm »
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I'd usually go for a second Witch. Winning the Curse split is that important.
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Awaclus

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 12:23:58 pm »
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That depends on everything. How early you are able to get the second curser, how useful the card is after it no longer hands out Curses, what the other $5 cards are, what kind of trashing there is, which strategy is your opponent using etc. If you think that the extra Curses hurt your opponent more than going for another card instead of the curser helps you, you should buy the second curser.
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 12:59:53 pm »
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The simulator often shows that the second witch or mountebank is worth it but not at the expense of gold. Stacking a deck with three mountebanks can even work too. A second sea hag is often worthwhile but again a useful 5 cost card is better if you can get it early.
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 03:44:16 pm »
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When no trashing or weak trashing (say a trade route) is available, I think it is very important to get the second witch/marauder/hag/etc.  Getting behind in the curse split without trashing can be devastating.

Moderate to good trashing it is all about reading the board and seeing what you need.  In the case of Mountebank, you will almost always get at least two, because even after curses run out you still junk your opponent with coppers.  In the case of a card like witch, it will probably not be as necessary (unless you need the +2 cards). 

Then there are those boards that have incredible trashing.  When chapel, forager, and junk dealer all appear on the same board as sea hag, you should probably skip the hag completely.  On these boards I would even skip cards like familiar, and I would be tempted to skip cards like Mountebank. 

So in the end I agree with Awaclus:  it depends on everything.
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silverspawn

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 03:58:30 pm »
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When no trashing or weak trashing (say a trade route) is available, I think it is very important to get the second witch/marauder/hag/etc.  Getting behind in the curse split without trashing can be devastating.

Moderate to good trashing it is all about reading the board and seeing what you need.  In the case of Mountebank, you will almost always get at least two, because even after curses run out you still junk your opponent with coppers.  In the case of a card like witch, it will probably not be as necessary (unless you need the +2 cards). 

Then there are those boards that have incredible trashing.  When chapel, forager, and junk dealer all appear on the same board as sea hag, you should probably skip the hag completely.  On these boards I would even skip cards like familiar, and I would be tempted to skip cards like Mountebank. 

So in the end I agree with Awaclus:  it depends on everything.

i think either of these 3 is enough to skip sea hag, and even all three aren't enough to skip mountebank. mountebank is so much better than sea hag it's not funny

i also don't know about a second sea hag, even when there is no trashing. sea hag is just so bad. once you dealt out all curses, it's just like another curse. so, you win the curse split 4-6, but you have another dead card, that makes it 6-7 dead cards instead of 6-6? I'll often rather buy something else.

but if it's any other junker (and there's no trashing): definitely get more than one.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 04:01:17 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 05:00:58 pm »
+1

Then there are those boards that have incredible trashing.  When chapel, forager, and junk dealer all appear on the same board as sea hag, you should probably skip the hag completely.  On these boards I would even skip cards like familiar, and I would be tempted to skip cards like Mountebank. 

i think either of these 3 is enough to skip sea hag, and even all three aren't enough to skip mountebank. mountebank is so much better than sea hag it's not funny
If Chapel and Sea Hag are both on the board, I'm probably using my opening buys on those two cards. The Chapel means I get to see my Sea Hag lots of times, and when the Curses are gone, I can Chapel it away!

(Also, of course Mountebank is better than Sea Hag. Similarly, Rabble is better than Smithy, and Counterfeit is better than Moneylender. The $4/$5 boundary is a big one in Dominion.)
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 06:45:51 pm »
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Then there are those boards that have incredible trashing.  When chapel, forager, and junk dealer all appear on the same board as sea hag, you should probably skip the hag completely.  On these boards I would even skip cards like familiar, and I would be tempted to skip cards like Mountebank. 

i think either of these 3 is enough to skip sea hag, and even all three aren't enough to skip mountebank. mountebank is so much better than sea hag it's not funny
If Chapel and Sea Hag are both on the board, I'm probably using my opening buys on those two cards. The Chapel means I get to see my Sea Hag lots of times, and when the Curses are gone, I can Chapel it away!

(Also, of course Mountebank is better than Sea Hag. Similarly, Rabble is better than Smithy, and Counterfeit is better than Moneylender. The $4/$5 boundary is a big one in Dominion.)

and when you have bad draws you can't even afford a silver before your second reshuffle, or you have to hold back trashing. not saying the opening is terrible, but I think in most cases silver/chapel is a better idea. There might be simulations for this, though it highly depends on the board, how important it is to hit 5$

yea, 4$ and 5$ is a large difference. but mountebank is better relative to his cost. smithy-rabble is a good comparison, rabble is smithy with a slight attack tacked on. Mountebank is sea hag with a vastly superior attack and a massive bonus on top of it.

maybe i'm biased beause i think sea hag is overrated, WW has said pretty much the same thing. It still strikes fast and it's reliable, if there's no good trashing it's a must buy, but if there is, I find Sea Hag to be skippable lots of times. You give me a curse with Sea Hag, I trash it with Forager. I lose one more card that turn, but i also get +1$ for it, you get nothing and even risk terminal collision. I use a 3$ card, you use a 4$ card- ok, 3$ and 4$ are really close, so that's minor. But also, when the curses are out, sea hag is useelss, forager is still working.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:53:03 pm by silverspawn »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 07:22:49 pm »
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I'm not sure simulations will be very helpful; they're most reliable when dealing with Big Money and Slog decks, whereas Chapel is an Engine and Combo deck card.

Sure, your Sea Hag and your Chapel could collide. Similarly, your Silver and your Chapel could collide, and that's just as wasted an opening buy unless there's a decent $2 card.
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SCSN

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 07:42:35 pm »
+6

You give me a curse with Sea Hag, I trash it with Forager.

It only ever works that way in your head. In real life it often looks more like this (sorry RTT, it's just such a poignant example).

I actually think strong trashing makes Cursers stronger, because you can play them much more often from a trim deck so that their impact is more devastating and can't be easily countered because the Curses come with such staggering consistency while your own deck only needs to miss one beat to start drowning.

A mistake often made even by strong players is trashing down to a reasonably strong deck and then going all green, completely ignoring the Curser in the kingdom, thus opening themselves up to receive all ten Cursers over the course of a few turns from their more perceptive opponent. Two educational examples:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130828/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1377729785165.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140127/log.507e1b8f0cf28ed55d9d85d7.1390824281210.txt
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 07:43:43 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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c4master

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 04:44:15 am »
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Great example, thx. It also shows, how effective Tacticians can be in dealing even more damage.

Still, I wonder why you went for cutpurse before the sea hag. Could you please explain this move to me?

-------

Btw: I have been paralyzed about doubleWitch and WitchChapel being equally fine strategies. I thought ChapelWitch to be superior, but the simulations proves both to be about equally strong (in big money).
In genral, I'm overestimating trashing, I fear.
I also wonder, if you have Witch and Chapel in hand in turn 3/4, which of those would you play? With three coppers, I would tend to pülay the witch and get a silver, otherwise I would tend to trash the remaining cards and hope to get the witch played more often.
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SCSN

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 07:13:40 am »
+7

Great example, thx. It also shows, how effective Tacticians can be in dealing even more damage.

Still, I wonder why you went for cutpurse before the sea hag. Could you please explain this move to me?

You want to Curse-flood your opponent either before his deck has become trim/strong enough to draw its trasher each turn, or after it has grown so bloated again that it no longer does. Immediately past the early game there can be this period during which you're able to deal with the Curses at the rate you receive them, but this extends neither to the early game itself (early Curses much delay you getting beyond it in the first place) nor necessarily to the late mid-game and beyond, especially not when someone thoughtlessly starts to green.

When I bought the Cutpurse, my opponent had a relatively trim deck and was still building, so getting a Sea Hag at this point would have been a mistake. Moreover, I was still building the engine myself, and for that I really needed more virtual coin, as a provider of which Cutpurse is better than a third Steward because it would either do some harm or provide me information.

Only after my opponent "revealed his hand" by going heavily for green and thus bloating his deck did I get the Hag. If he had kept building, I would have kept seeing Sea Hag as just a possible tool for future use.

Quote
Btw: I have been paralyzed about doubleWitch and WitchChapel being equally fine strategies. I thought ChapelWitch to be superior, but the simulations proves both to be about equally strong (in big money). In genral, I'm overestimating trashing, I fear.

No, I'm close to 100% sure you're underestimating trashing because all but a handful of players do, and it's pretty much impossible to overestimate without believing something as evidently retarded as that deliberately trashing your key cards without any gain whatsoever is a good thing. Incidentally, two weeks ago in a moment of weakness I succumbed to the silly thought "Apprentice is too slow as a Copper trasher"; fortunately Stef was there to show me the way back to sanity.

What you're vastly overestimating, however, is the relevance Big Money has to... basically anything. The only reason Big Money is such a prominent concept is that it's easy to understand, easy to discuss and easy to program. It's always available as an option but very rarely any good, it's an edge case in the strategic landscape, and perhaps that explains this forum's obsession with it best.

Chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game. Chapel-Witch-BM being on par with Double-Witch-BM doesn't imply that Chapel is weak, it's a consequence of BM in general and Chapel-BM in particular being awful. Chapel-Witch-Engine should crush Double-Witch-BM for all reasonable and most unreasonable implementations of Engine.

Quote
I also wonder, if you have Witch and Chapel in hand in turn 3/4, which of those would you play? With three coppers, I would tend to pülay the witch and get a silver, otherwise I would tend to trash the remaining cards and hope to get the witch played more often.

Always play the Chapel. In the early game trashing should have priority over anything else, and this is all the more true when it concerns your first Chapel turn. Removing three junk cards from your own deck is far more valuable than adding one to your opponent's.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:51:11 am by SheCantSayNo »
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 11:21:08 am »
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You want to Curse-flood your opponent either before his deck has become trim/strong enough to draw its trasher each turn, or after it has grown so bloated again that it no longer does. Immediately past the early game there can be this period during which you're able to deal with the Curses at the rate you receive them, but this extends neither to the early game itself (early Curses much delay you getting beyond it in the first place) nor necessarily to the late mid-game and beyond, especially not when someone thoughtlessly starts to green.

This is a great way to think about cursing. Thank you!

I have been paralyzed about doubleWitch and WitchChapel being equally fine strategies. I thought ChapelWitch to be superior, but the simulations proves both to be about equally strong (in big money).
In genral, I'm overestimating trashing, I fear.

I also echo SCSN that you shouldn't pay too much attention to BM simulations. Numerous people have made the mistake of assuming that because it's easy to simulate BM+X, that it's the best way to test X's strength. As most of the best cards are engine enablers, it's really not all that useful. See, for example, Ambassador, which is one of the best cards in the game (see WW's Power Rankings), but which is just terrible for BM. Despite this, people have tried to use BM simulations to show the relative strength of Amb/Silver vs Amb/Amb or returning 2 copper vs 1 estate. The results are next to useless. GIGO.

Edited to reflect Silverspawns point that Amb is no longer at the top of WW's list
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 01:16:56 pm by GeoLib »
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 11:29:04 am »
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Quote
See, for example, Ambassador, which is arguably the best card in the game (see WW's Power Rankings)

no... masquerade is the strongest card in the game according to WW

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 02:11:37 pm »
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Quote
See, for example, Ambassador, which is arguably the best card in the game (see WW's Power Rankings)

no... masquerade is the strongest card in the game according to WW

Damn, you're right. It was #1 on the original list. Ok, but my points still stand. Masquerade isn't a good example because BM+Masq is actually pretty good.
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 03:13:40 pm »
0

Great example, thx. It also shows, how effective Tacticians can be in dealing even more damage.

Still, I wonder why you went for cutpurse before the sea hag. Could you please explain this move to me?

You want to Curse-flood your opponent either before his deck has become trim/strong enough to draw its trasher each turn, or after it has grown so bloated again that it no longer does. Immediately past the early game there can be this period during which you're able to deal with the Curses at the rate you receive them, but this extends neither to the early game itself (early Curses much delay you getting beyond it in the first place) nor necessarily to the late mid-game and beyond, especially not when someone thoughtlessly starts to green.

When I bought the Cutpurse, my opponent had a relatively trim deck and was still building, so getting a Sea Hag at this point would have been a mistake. Moreover, I was still building the engine myself, and for that I really needed more virtual coin, as a provider of which Cutpurse is better than a third Steward because it would either do some harm or provide me information.

Only after my opponent "revealed his hand" by going heavily for green and thus bloating his deck did I get the Hag. If he had kept building, I would have kept seeing Sea Hag as just a possible tool for future use.
All right, that's understandable.

Btw: I have been paralyzed about doubleWitch and WitchChapel being equally fine strategies. I thought ChapelWitch to be superior, but the simulations proves both to be about equally strong (in big money). In genral, I'm overestimating trashing, I fear.

No, I'm close to 100% sure you're underestimating trashing because all but a handful of players do, and it's pretty much impossible to overestimate without believing something as evidently retarded as that deliberately trashing your key cards without any gain whatsoever is a good thing. Incidentally, two weeks ago in a moment of weakness I succumbed to the silly thought "Apprentice is too slow as a Copper trasher"; fortunately Stef was there to show me the way back to sanity.
Still, the game took 16 turns. Without any attack, this might have been enough to pull off a much more simple BM strategy. Maybe, I'm wrong, and both of you could have greened earlier, but buying 4 Provinces by turn 14 should be possible, I guess.

What you're vastly overestimating, however, is the relevance Big Money has to... basically anything. The only reason Big Money is such a prominent concept is that it's easy to understand, easy to discuss and easy to program. It's always available as an option but very rarely any good, it's an edge case in the strategic landscape, and perhaps that explains this forum's obsession with it best.
Eventually, we all have learnt the hard way that Big Money can beat a lot of seemingly good strategies, espacially engines. Probably that's the reason for overestimating it.

Chapel is one of the strongest cards in the game. Chapel-Witch-BM being on par with Double-Witch-BM doesn't imply that Chapel is weak, it's a consequence of BM in general and Chapel-BM in particular being awful. Chapel-Witch-Engine should crush Double-Witch-BM for all reasonable and most unreasonable implementations of Engine.
I never said, Chapel would be weak. I just wondered, why the ChapelWitch-bot couldn't beat the doubleWitch-bot significantly more often than the other way round.
You're still right, probably: Chapel really should enable an enigine or a combo rather than just trash a few bad cards and then play Big Money. Obviously, if there is any kind of payload, and any way to get an engine running, the chapel will absolutely make the difference.

Quote
I also wonder, if you have Witch and Chapel in hand in turn 3/4, which of those would you play? With three coppers, I would tend to pülay the witch and get a silver, otherwise I would tend to trash the remaining cards and hope to get the witch played more often.

Always play the Chapel. In the early game trashing should have priority over anything else, and this is all the more true when it concerns your first Chapel turn. Removing three junk cards from your own deck is far more valuable than adding one to your opponent's.
All right, I'll stick to this advice. Obviously, you shouldn't trash all of your coppers before 2 silvers or a gold. So I guess for a second collision, you should rather play the witch and get that needed silver, right?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 03:14:41 pm by c4master »
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Awaclus

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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2014, 03:37:16 pm »
+1

Still, the game took 16 turns. Without any attack, this might have been enough to pull off a much more simple BM strategy. Maybe, I'm wrong, and both of you could have greened earlier, but buying 4 Provinces by turn 14 should be possible, I guess.
Taxman is an attack, and against BM, it's a pretty strong one, too. And there isn't a very strong BM terminal; 4 Provinces in 14 turns is possible, but it doesn't sound very likely with Merchant Ship as your best BM card.
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2014, 04:28:32 pm »
0

You want to Curse-flood your opponent either before his deck has become trim/strong enough to draw its trasher each turn, or after it has grown so bloated again that it no longer does.

Time to contribute with my favorite example of late cursing.
My turn 17 Sea Hag is not actually doing any permanent damage to his deck with 2-3 masquerades, but it slows him down just exactly enough.
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Re: Discussion: Get a second curser
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2014, 03:49:13 am »
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...which is why you don't trash those curses he passes to you, right?
So it's better for you if both have one curse than none of you having a curse?
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