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[clloxin]

Theater
cost- $6
Type- action
+1 action. the player to your left reveals his hand. take a coin token for each action card revealed. +2 cards -1 for each token taken.

So either the card is a baker, laboratory, or something better. I have thought about a price change, or allowing each player to discard any number of cards, but it seems okay as it is. Any ideas on how to change it or make it better? I have thought of changing it to add a overpay effect.

[eHalcyon]

The third thing is basically a Silver+ card, in that it non-terminally gives you 2 coin tokens.  I think it would probably be OK at $5, since it's unreliable.  No real reason to add an overpay effect.  Can you think of something that fits without making the whole card too complex?

[clloxin]

I first tried it at five and it felt really powerful, but it could possibly be That the people I play with aren't very good at dominion or that it was made powerful with the setup I was using. I'll try it again because you are right in that it seems to unreliable to be 5 though.

[LibraryAdventurer]

It took me a minute to figure out what the last part of the card means, but now that I've figured it out I like the idea.
Here's my suggestion for making the effect clearer:

Theater
cost- $6
Type- action
+1 action. The player to your left reveals his hand. Take a coin token for each action card revealed. +2 cards if no action cards were revealed, +1 card if only one action card was revealed.

[clloxin]

It took me a minute to figure out what the last part of the card means, but now that I've figured it out I like the idea.
Here's my suggestion for making the effect clearer:

Theater
cost- $6
Type- action
+1 action. The player to your left reveals his hand. Take a coin token for each action card revealed. +2 cards if no action cards were revealed, +1 card if only one action card was revealed.

Oh thanks, that does sound alot better. Any Other ideas that would make the card better?

[LibraryAdventurer]

It does seem a little weak for $6, but too strong for $5. Unreliable, but if the player to the left reveals a hand full of actions, it's great. Maybe a slight boost would make it a solid $6, but I'm not sure what that would be.

[clloxin]

It does seem a little weak for $6, but too strong for $5. Unreliable, but if the player to the left reveals a hand full of actions, it's great. Maybe a slight boost would make it a solid $6, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Would an overpay effect make the card too confusing/wordy?

[KingZog3]

It does seem a little weak for $6, but too strong for $5. Unreliable, but if the player to the left reveals a hand full of actions, it's great. Maybe a slight boost would make it a solid $6, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Would an overpay effect make the card too confusing/wordy?

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

[silverspawn]

It does seem a little weak for $6, but too strong for $5. Unreliable, but if the player to the left reveals a hand full of actions, it's great. Maybe a slight boost would make it a solid $6, but I'm not sure what that would be.

Would an overpay effect make the card too confusing/wordy?

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

When you overpay this, take one province per $1 you overpayed

no, don't thank me

[SCSN]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

As for Theater, I think it's very weak even at $5 and I would almost always prefer buying a Lab, as my average card should be better than a Candlestick Maker and this card is just worse than a Lab drawing two of them. The unreliability of it makes it even weaker; Tribute would be awesome if it either always gave 4 actions, always 4 cards or always 2 Cards, 2 Actions, but the randomness and the coins and the not getting any bonus makes it generally a poor investment.

If it's the only source of coin tokens, sure, I'd pick up one or two, but that you can't rely on it is just very bad: it's the main reason cards like Tribute, Harvest, Adventurer and Scout are so weak.

[KingZog3]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

I understand. But again, how often will you be overpaying for it? And usually not more than $2, maybe $3. It's just something to keep in mind when making a card, not a reason not to do it. I think there's a reason non of the overpay cards are more than $4.

[markusin]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

I understand. But again, how often will you be overpaying for it? And usually not more than $2, maybe $3. It's just something to keep in mind when making a card, not a reason not to do it. I think there's a reason non of the overpay cards are more than $4.

Sample-size error.

[KingZog3]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

I understand. But again, how often will you be overpaying for it? And usually not more than $2, maybe $3. It's just something to keep in mind when making a card, not a reason not to do it. I think there's a reason non of the overpay cards are more than $4.

Sample-size error.

Perhaps, but I don't know why every is trying to prove me wrong. I already said there isn't really a problem with it, just something to consider.

[LastFootnote]

I agree with KingZog that there's a reason overpay cards tend to be cheap. That way you actually have a bit of a sliding scale as to how much you get out of them. If a $6 card had a clause of "For every $2 you overpaid…", you wouldn't see the overpay used much in a lot of games, and when you did, you'd probably usually only overpay by $2.

That's not to say that it couldn't be done, but if you're going to put a wordy overpay ability on a card, it would be nice if that ability were used in most games where it appeared.

NOTE: I maintain that Doctor's overpay is probably better than people give it credit for.

[markusin]

I agree with KingZog that there's a reason overpay cards tend to be cheap. That way you actually have a bit of a sliding scale as to how much you get out of them. If a $6 card had a clause of "For every $2 you overpaid…", you wouldn't see the overpay used much in a lot of games, and when you did, you'd probably usually only overpay by $2.

That's not to say that it couldn't be done, but if you're going to put a wordy overpay ability on a card, it would be nice if that ability were used in most games where it appeared.

NOTE: I maintain that Doctor's overpay is probably better than people give it credit for.

I'm not sure why Herald has a wordy overpay effect. I guess it's so good sometimes that you'll be willing to pay $5 or more for it pretty often.

[eHalcyon]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

As for Theater, I think it's very weak even at $5 and I would almost always prefer buying a Lab, as my average card should be better than a Candlestick Maker and this card is just worse than a Lab drawing two of them. The unreliability of it makes it even weaker; Tribute would be awesome if it either always gave 4 actions, always 4 cards or always 2 Cards, 2 Actions, but the randomness and the coins and the not getting any bonus makes it generally a poor investment.

If it's the only source of coin tokens, sure, I'd pick up one or two, but that you can't rely on it is just very bad: it's the main reason cards like Tribute, Harvest, Adventurer and Scout are so weak.

Do you think it would be correctly costed at $4?  I agree that the randomness makes the card weak, but I think it's still a $5 card.

On a similar note, do you think Tribute would be OK at $4?  I'm undecided.

[KingZog3]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

As for Theater, I think it's very weak even at $5 and I would almost always prefer buying a Lab, as my average card should be better than a Candlestick Maker and this card is just worse than a Lab drawing two of them. The unreliability of it makes it even weaker; Tribute would be awesome if it either always gave 4 actions, always 4 cards or always 2 Cards, 2 Actions, but the randomness and the coins and the not getting any bonus makes it generally a poor investment.

If it's the only source of coin tokens, sure, I'd pick up one or two, but that you can't rely on it is just very bad: it's the main reason cards like Tribute, Harvest, Adventurer and Scout are so weak.

Do you think it would be correctly costed at $4?  I agree that the randomness makes the card weak, but I think it's still a $5 card.

On a similar note, do you think Tribute would be OK at $4?  I'm undecided.

I think it would be good at $4, maybe. It'll be easier to pick up since it doesn't compete with other $5's, so probably a lot better actually.

[clloxin]

I think it would be way to powerful at $4. I have played it at $5, and it seemed weaker than a laboratory normally, but still pretty good for a $5, especially if it is the only coin token card. plus, not many $5 cards are stronger than a laboratory anyway. I could possibly change it to make it a $4 though.

Edit- Actually, I might Change it to +2 actions and have it at $6, it would have very powerful effects, but be unreliable.

[eHalcyon]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

As for Theater, I think it's very weak even at $5 and I would almost always prefer buying a Lab, as my average card should be better than a Candlestick Maker and this card is just worse than a Lab drawing two of them. The unreliability of it makes it even weaker; Tribute would be awesome if it either always gave 4 actions, always 4 cards or always 2 Cards, 2 Actions, but the randomness and the coins and the not getting any bonus makes it generally a poor investment.

If it's the only source of coin tokens, sure, I'd pick up one or two, but that you can't rely on it is just very bad: it's the main reason cards like Tribute, Harvest, Adventurer and Scout are so weak.

Do you think it would be correctly costed at $4?  I agree that the randomness makes the card weak, but I think it's still a $5 card.

On a similar note, do you think Tribute would be OK at $4?  I'm undecided.

I think it would be good at $4, maybe. It'll be easier to pick up since it doesn't compete with other $5's, so probably a lot better actually.

Is this about Theater or Tribute?  Both?

[KingZog3]

One thing to keep in mind is how often will you overpay for a $6 card? Overpaying for $2? Why not just buy a Province?

Because for most of the game you want to strengthen your engine rather than randomly clog it with a green card just because you happened to hit $8.

As for Theater, I think it's very weak even at $5 and I would almost always prefer buying a Lab, as my average card should be better than a Candlestick Maker and this card is just worse than a Lab drawing two of them. The unreliability of it makes it even weaker; Tribute would be awesome if it either always gave 4 actions, always 4 cards or always 2 Cards, 2 Actions, but the randomness and the coins and the not getting any bonus makes it generally a poor investment.

If it's the only source of coin tokens, sure, I'd pick up one or two, but that you can't rely on it is just very bad: it's the main reason cards like Tribute, Harvest, Adventurer and Scout are so weak.

Do you think it would be correctly costed at $4?  I agree that the randomness makes the card weak, but I think it's still a $5 card.

On a similar note, do you think Tribute would be OK at $4?  I'm undecided.

I think it would be good at $4, maybe. It'll be easier to pick up since it doesn't compete with other $5's, so probably a lot better actually.

Is this about Theater or Tribute?  Both?

Sorry, I meant Tribute. But Theatre too.

[clloxin]

ooh, I meant theater, didn't realize that my reply sounded like I was refering to tribute.

[LibraryAdventurer]

As for Theater, I think it's very weak even at $5 and I would almost always prefer buying a Lab, as my average card should be better than a Candlestick Maker and this card is just worse than a Lab drawing two of them. The unreliability of it makes it even weaker; Tribute would be awesome if it either always gave 4 actions, always 4 cards or always 2 Cards, 2 Actions, but the randomness and the coins and the not getting any bonus makes it generally a poor investment.

If it's the only source of coin tokens, sure, I'd pick up one or two, but that you can't rely on it is just very bad: it's the main reason cards like Tribute, Harvest, Adventurer and Scout are so weak.

really?  I don't think theater's weak for $5 at all. It doesn't do the same thing every time, but it's always good. It's either a Lab, a Baker, or non terminal +2 (or more) coin tokens (and 2 coin tokens is better than just +$2 on a card). Any one of those is worth $5, plus it has the possibility of giving more than 2 coin tokens. How is that weak? and How would drawing more than one make it weaker?
(maybe I shouldn't argue with someone who's 56 levels higher than me on the leaderboard, but it might help me to understand how this is weak.)

clloxin, If you do add something to make it worth $6, an on-gain effect would probably be better than an overpay effect.

[Co0kieL0rd]

I think the fact that this is a non-terminal makes it ridiculously powerful. In many decks, chances are quite good that it reveals at least two actions and gains two coin tokens. You cannot really compare a coin token to a Copper or two tokens to silver, respectively, because you can accumulate them. So gaining those two tokens is already quite good. If you have a Village and/or multiple Theaters in your hand, you could gain 4-8 coin tokens if you get lucky with your opponent's hand. If not, it's still a Lab or a Peddler every time you play it but strictly better than both of them for the possible additional benefits. I think it would be priced at $6 accordingly.

Let's consider this without the +action. Then it's at least a Moat and at best 5 coin tokens. It gains you 2 coin tokens on average without card draw which would be really weak for its unreliability. $4 for such a card would probably be overpriced. So the +actions make all the difference here. The problem with your original concept is that it's swingy (which is okay for the possible powerful effect) but when it reveals two or more action cards, the effect is stackable (because the opponent's hand remains the same) which is insane.

My suggestion would be, if you want to keep it a terminal, to make it look at the top two cards of the deck of the player to your left and discard them afterwards, like tribute. This way, you can play multiple Theaters consecutively and might still get very lucky but the card retains its swinginess with each use. This would be priced at $5 accordingly.

[eHalcyon]

Whoa, somehow I misinterpreted the initial card such that I thought it would only give two coin tokens max.

OK, so, this is more powerful than I initially thought.  The fact that it depends on the other players' hand makes it harder to judge too.  If the player on your left is playing mostly BM, it is more often a Lab than anything else.  If the board actually favours the BM, then Lab is not that great.  On the flip side, if the other player is running a really tight engine, then 5 coin tokens would actually be pretty easy to hit consistently.

Wow.  So, the high is much higher than I initially thought.  As is, I would probably look at $6.  But 5 coin tokens really is huge.. the main thing about costing it higher is that those 5 coin tokens are still (usually) unreliable.  Hmmmm.

[clloxin]

Whoa, somehow I misinterpreted the initial card such that I thought it would only give two coin tokens max.

OK, so, this is more powerful than I initially thought.  The fact that it depends on the other players' hand makes it harder to judge too.  If the player on your left is playing mostly BM, it is more often a Lab than anything else.  If the board actually favours the BM, then Lab is not that great.  On the flip side, if the other player is running a really tight engine, then 5 coin tokens would actually be pretty easy to hit consistently.

Wow.  So, the high is much higher than I initially thought.  As is, I would probably look at $6.  But 5 coin tokens really is huge.. the main thing about costing it higher is that those 5 coin tokens are still (usually) unreliable.  Hmmmm.

I could make it where the player to your left can discard any number of cards, so if he didn't want you to get 5 coin tokens he could discard any useless actions. not that it would change too much...

also, would adding another +1 action make it worth $6? ( +2 actions)