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Author Topic: What Card Am I?  (Read 123270 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2014, 04:41:19 pm »
0

Before <action>, you do not have a random card X.  After <action>, you do. 

<action> is getting card X.  It could be fulfilled by something drawing card X, or it could be fulfilled by something transforming into card X.  Thus, both the drawing and the transforming are similar in a sense.


Is this the part where you get hung up then?  This is the kind of abstraction that I just accept as a given when it comes to riddles.  Maybe it's too big a leap for your taste, but it doesn't feel like such a big jump to me.
But you kind of do have the card, because it's Throne Room's effect and you have Throne Room.

But you don't have it until you play TR and it "transforms", thus giving it to you.  This is the entire point.

Again I repeat, maybe this is just too big a leap for your taste in riddles, even though it works perfectly for me.
Yeah, and you don't have Militia's effect either until you play it. Throne Room isn't any different.

And yeah, the leap is too big for my taste, but I still don't think that even if I was willing to make that leap, Throne Room would be the answer I'd end up with.

Except the effect that TR gives can arguably fit the riddle, whereas Militia's effect cannot.  Again, the point.
I don't think so. Either they both can arguably fit the riddle, or neither of them can.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2014, 04:45:36 pm »
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Except the effect that TR gives can arguably fit the riddle, whereas Militia's effect cannot.  Again, the point.
I don't think so. Either they both can arguably fit the riddle, or neither of them can.

You are definitely misreading something.  I've explained repeatedly the way that you can tease out TR fitting the clues.  At the very least, you cannot in any way suggest that Militia fits the +1 action part of the clue.  TR does because of the phantom action it creates.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 04:47:27 pm by eHalcyon »
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Asper

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2014, 04:48:32 pm »
0

As a help:
"I do the one it does twice twice and the other two, too." doesn't just mean
"I do the one it does twice twice and i do the other two, too."
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2014, 04:54:05 pm »
+1

As a help:
"I do the one it does twice twice and the other two, too." doesn't just mean
"I do the one it does twice twice and i do the other two, too."

OK...


Witch does these things:

- attacks other players once
- hands out junk to players once
- draws a card twice

If the clue doesn't mean what I initially thought it meant, then perhaps the "other two too" means that the other two also happen twice.  So, Followers.

Followers does these things:

- attacks other players twice (junking attack and discard attack)
- hands out junk to players twice (Curses to others, Estate to self)
- draws a card twice
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Asper

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2014, 05:05:57 pm »
0

As a help:
"I do the one it does twice twice and the other two, too." doesn't just mean
"I do the one it does twice twice and i do the other two, too."

OK...


Witch does these things:

- attacks other players once
- hands out junk to players once
- draws a card twice

If the clue doesn't mean what I initially thought it meant, then perhaps the "other two too" means that the other two also happen twice.  So, Followers.

Followers does these things:

- attacks other players twice (junking attack and discard attack)
- hands out junk to players twice (Curses to others, Estate to self)
- draws a card twice


That's the correct solution. Though when wording the riddle i actually even forgot another thing Followers does twice that Witch does once. And that's changing the relative score by one.

Edit: Sorry i'm not very good at this.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 05:07:02 pm by Asper »
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #105 on: March 04, 2014, 05:14:30 pm »
0

You are definitely misreading something.  I've explained repeatedly the way that you can tease out TR fitting the clues.  At the very least, you cannot in any way suggest that Militia fits the +1 action part of the clue.  TR does because of the phantom action it creates.
But playing Militia is just like playing a cantrip that draws Militia. That's already +1 card and +1 action there, no need to use a different abstraction to get the +1 action (which you need for Throne Room).
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silverspawn

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #106 on: March 04, 2014, 05:22:32 pm »
0

? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 05:30:25 pm by silverspawn »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #107 on: March 04, 2014, 05:47:25 pm »
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You are definitely misreading something.  I've explained repeatedly the way that you can tease out TR fitting the clues.  At the very least, you cannot in any way suggest that Militia fits the +1 action part of the clue.  TR does because of the phantom action it creates.
But playing Militia is just like playing a cantrip that draws Militia. That's already +1 card and +1 action there, no need to use a different abstraction to get the +1 action (which you need for Throne Room).

No.  You are misunderstanding the purpose of that abstraction (and, for the record, you are causing another stack overflow there).  If you are adding in a cantrip that just draws the original card, the cantrip might as well not be there.  It is completely invisible and meaningless.  The abstraction with Throne Room DOES NOT do that -- it draws a DIFFERENT card that is NOT Throne Room.  This has already been explained ad nauseum:

In the end, what does Militia give you?  It gives you $2 and a discard attack.  It doesn't give you another card in any sense, and it certainly doesn't give you an action in any sense.  You could frame it as if it's giving you the effects of another virtual card that happens to give you $2 and a discard attack, except this virtual card is still something specific.

In the end, what does TR give you?  It gives you the effects of another card.  In a (admittedly loose) sense, this is giving you +1 card.  As previously discussed, it also effectively gives you the +1 action needed to "play" that other card.  The key thing here is that this virtual card is NOT specific.  It's generic, depending on whatever card is paired with TR.

A virtual cantrip does not give a net result of either +1 card or +1 action.  It disappears.  Its purpose in the abstraction is to re-frame the "transformation" of a TR into the second copy of a card and thus (as already explained) can be imagined to give +1 card.  It doesn't work for anything other than TR or Procession.  The sense of "+1 card" comes from the transformation.  The +1 action is the phantom action that TR provides.  These are net results from playing TR.  Militia does neither.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #108 on: March 04, 2014, 05:55:20 pm »
0

? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself

More money than any victory card?
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Asper

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #109 on: March 04, 2014, 05:55:40 pm »
0

? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself

Herold?
? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself

More money than any victory card?

More than 2$ :P
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Witherweaver

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2014, 05:55:58 pm »
0

You are definitely misreading something.  I've explained repeatedly the way that you can tease out TR fitting the clues.  At the very least, you cannot in any way suggest that Militia fits the +1 action part of the clue.  TR does because of the phantom action it creates.
But playing Militia is just like playing a cantrip that draws Militia. That's already +1 card and +1 action there, no need to use a different abstraction to get the +1 action (which you need for Throne Room).

No.  You are misunderstanding the purpose of that abstraction (and, for the record, you are causing another stack overflow there).  If you are adding in a cantrip that just draws the original card, the cantrip might as well not be there.  It is completely invisible and meaningless.  The abstraction with Throne Room DOES NOT do that -- it draws a DIFFERENT card that is NOT Throne Room.  This has already been explained ad nauseum:
...

Can I throne room the abstractions of the cantrips?!
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silverspawn

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2014, 06:04:28 pm »
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2014, 07:51:42 pm »
0

You are definitely misreading something.  I've explained repeatedly the way that you can tease out TR fitting the clues.  At the very least, you cannot in any way suggest that Militia fits the +1 action part of the clue.  TR does because of the phantom action it creates.
But playing Militia is just like playing a cantrip that draws Militia. That's already +1 card and +1 action there, no need to use a different abstraction to get the +1 action (which you need for Throne Room).

No.  You are misunderstanding the purpose of that abstraction (and, for the record, you are causing another stack overflow there).  If you are adding in a cantrip that just draws the original card, the cantrip might as well not be there.  It is completely invisible and meaningless.  The abstraction with Throne Room DOES NOT do that -- it draws a DIFFERENT card that is NOT Throne Room.  This has already been explained ad nauseum:

In the end, what does Militia give you?  It gives you $2 and a discard attack.  It doesn't give you another card in any sense, and it certainly doesn't give you an action in any sense.  You could frame it as if it's giving you the effects of another virtual card that happens to give you $2 and a discard attack, except this virtual card is still something specific.

In the end, what does TR give you?  It gives you the effects of another card.  In a (admittedly loose) sense, this is giving you +1 card.  As previously discussed, it also effectively gives you the +1 action needed to "play" that other card.  The key thing here is that this virtual card is NOT specific.  It's generic, depending on whatever card is paired with TR.

A virtual cantrip does not give a net result of either +1 card or +1 action.  It disappears.  Its purpose in the abstraction is to re-frame the "transformation" of a TR into the second copy of a card and thus (as already explained) can be imagined to give +1 card.  It doesn't work for anything other than TR or Procession.  The sense of "+1 card" comes from the transformation.  The +1 action is the phantom action that TR provides.  These are net results from playing TR.  Militia does neither.
Okay, fine, it's a bit different. Your cantrip is drawing only half of Throne Room's effect, so the equivalent for Militia would be this:

Card A
$4 Action
+$2
Gain and topdeck a Card B from the Card B pile.
+1 card
+1 action that you can only use for playing a Card B

Card B
$0* Action - Attack
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in his hand. Return this to the Card B pile.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #113 on: March 04, 2014, 08:55:44 pm »
0

Okay, fine, it's a bit different. Your cantrip is drawing only half of Throne Room's effect, so the equivalent for Militia would be this:

Card A
$4 Action
+$2
Gain and topdeck a Card B from the Card B pile.
+1 card
+1 action that you can only use for playing a Card B

Card B
$0* Action - Attack
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in his hand. Return this to the Card B pile.

But your Card B isn't a real card.  The extra card that TR giving you is still a real card.  It's whatever card is being copied.  And you're still not getting any phantom action out of this.

Bahh, I give up.  Whatever example I give, you somehow focus in on the wrong part and miss the point or you take the logic and apply it in a way that doesn't work or doesn't show anything useful.  If you aren't just trolling me, then clearly you just think differently than I do (please note, this not at all a bad thing; the world needs different kinds of thinkers) and I won't be able to make this clear no matter what I try.

I *think* you've got the phantom action clear.  That's enough.  I'm tired of this, I'm sure others are tired of it too.  I give.
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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #114 on: March 04, 2014, 11:48:58 pm »
+7

? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself

Celestial Chameleon?
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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2014, 01:36:45 am »
0

? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself

Black Market!
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

KingZog3

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2014, 02:10:04 pm »
0

? nvm. i messed up sites or something
let me do a riddle instead:

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply
i can make more actions than any village
i can make more money than any victory card
and yet i cant trash myself

Scrying Pool?
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silverspawn

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2014, 04:44:22 pm »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2014, 04:59:55 pm »
0

i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply

Since it refers to out of supply, maybe it should involve cards that aren't in the supply.  Or it could just be riddle-rific hyperbole for a card that draws a lot.

i can make more actions than any village

"Making actions" could be a reference to actual +actions or to gaining action cards... from outside the supply maybe?

i can make more money than any victory card

Most VP cards don't make money, unless you pair it with Salvager or Vault or something.  There's Tunnel (gains Gold), Feodum (gains 3 Silver), Harem (worth $2)... that might be it.

and yet i cant trash myself

An odd clue.  Most things don't trash themselves.  For it to be called out, it sounds like it should be something that never gets trashed (so, Fortress) or typically gets returned to the supply rather than trashed (Madman, Spoils).

Yeah, I don't know.
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liopoil

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2014, 05:07:14 pm »
0

Hermit/Madman!
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silverspawn

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2014, 05:10:17 pm »
0

you're thinking way too complicted. it's tribute.

"i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply"
tribute can draw 4 cards. there may be less in the supply

"i can make more money than any victory card"
this is trivial. 4$ > 2$


"i can make more actions than any village"
also trivial. +4 > +3

"and yet i cant trash myself"
a crucial clue to add further confusion


8)

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2014, 06:21:07 pm »
0

you're thinking way too complicted. it's tribute.

"i can draw more cards than there are cards in the supply"
tribute can draw 4 cards. there may be less in the supply

"i can make more money than any victory card"
this is trivial. 4$ > 2$


"i can make more actions than any village"
also trivial. +4 > +3

"and yet i cant trash myself"
a crucial clue to add further confusion


8)

I think Black Market is a way cooler solution...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Nevermind

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2014, 02:04:42 pm »
0

Here's a riddle for you (note: this is my first riddle I'm doing, so if it's weak, then tell me, if it's confusing tell me, if you hate it and me, then nothing really happens, 'cause I don't care):

Dig, men, dig!
We must react to the militia and torturers, so dig!
As a bonus, my men, there might be treasure nearby, so dig!!

What card am I?
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Dsell

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2014, 02:06:31 pm »
0

Here's a riddle for you (note: this is my first riddle I'm doing, so if it's weak, then tell me, if it's confusing tell me, if you hate it and me, then nothing really happens, 'cause I don't care):

Dig, men, dig!
We must react to the militia and torturers, so dig!
As a bonus, my men, there might be treasure nearby, so dig!!

What card am I?

Tunnel?       
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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2014, 02:20:27 pm »
0

A festival trader I am not.
I interpret the revelations.
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