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Author Topic: What Card Am I?  (Read 123257 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2014, 06:39:15 pm »
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No, those were separate abstractions.  The virtual cantrip metaphor was (attempting to) explain how it fits the +1 card clue.  When you play TR-X, you get a second card X played.  It's like the TR drew you that second X, and in that way it's sort of like +1 card.  Yes, it's a bit of a stretch.

The same logic does not apply to other cards because you aren't getting anything extra out of your virtual cantrip.
But you aren't getting anything extra out of your virtual cantrip for Throne Room either. You still just play the other card twice, which is Throne Room's effect.
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Watno

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2014, 06:40:30 pm »
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I agree with Throne Room as a virtual +1 action.. you play it, plus another action card.  The +1 card thing kind of shows itself in the hands compared above.. it's like+1 card where that card is another Militia.  Though that seems a bit like an accounting trick to me. 
But if you consider it to add an extra Militia to your hand, you need 2 actions to play both Militias. I really don't see how +1 action and +1 card can make sense at the same time.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2014, 06:51:50 pm »
+1


I agree with Throne Room as a virtual +1 action.. you play it, plus another action card.  The +1 card thing kind of shows itself in the hands compared above.. it's like+1 card where that card is another Militia.  Though that seems a bit like an accounting trick to me. 
But if you consider it to add an extra Militia to your hand, you need 2 actions to play both Militias. I really don't see how +1 action and +1 card can make sense at the same time.

Well this way you have to consider it as the first play plays one Militia, the next action is used to play the second Militia.  But I agree that's a twist, and I don't disagree with your statement.

On the other hand, the riddle doesn't actually say it does those at the same time. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2014, 07:47:44 pm »
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No, those were separate abstractions.  The virtual cantrip metaphor was (attempting to) explain how it fits the +1 card clue.  When you play TR-X, you get a second card X played.  It's like the TR drew you that second X, and in that way it's sort of like +1 card.  Yes, it's a bit of a stretch.

The same logic does not apply to other cards because you aren't getting anything extra out of your virtual cantrip.
But you aren't getting anything extra out of your virtual cantrip for Throne Room either. You still just play the other card twice, which is Throne Room's effect.

It's re-framing what TR does.  Imagine that TR is not playing the card twice, but is instead doing Something Mysterious before you play the chosen action card X.  What is that Something Mysterious?  It's an extra play of action card X.  In a sense, this is like it's given or drawn you an extra card X.

Yes, this is what TR itself does.  That is the entire point. >_>
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2014, 08:13:13 pm »
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It's re-framing what TR does.  Imagine that TR is not playing the card twice, but is instead doing Something Mysterious before you play the chosen action card X.  What is that Something Mysterious?  It's an extra play of action card X.  In a sense, this is like it's given or drawn you an extra card X.
Yeah, getting the effects of the action card X is part of Throne Room's effect, getting them again is another part. Why do you "draw a card" for this partial effect of Throne Room?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2014, 08:35:16 pm »
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It's re-framing what TR does.  Imagine that TR is not playing the card twice, but is instead doing Something Mysterious before you play the chosen action card X.  What is that Something Mysterious?  It's an extra play of action card X.  In a sense, this is like it's given or drawn you an extra card X.
Yeah, getting the effects of the action card X is part of Throne Room's effect, getting them again is another part. Why do you "draw a card" for this partial effect of Throne Room?

To fit the riddle.  Really, that is it.  Having TR in your hand is like having a second copy of another action already in your hand.  A way to think about that is that TR becomes that other card.  Another way to think about it is that TR gives you that other card.  That's all.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2014, 08:55:36 pm »
+1

It's re-framing what TR does.  Imagine that TR is not playing the card twice, but is instead doing Something Mysterious before you play the chosen action card X.  What is that Something Mysterious?  It's an extra play of action card X.  In a sense, this is like it's given or drawn you an extra card X.
Yeah, getting the effects of the action card X is part of Throne Room's effect, getting them again is another part. Why do you "draw a card" for this partial effect of Throne Room?

To fit the riddle.  Really, that is it.  Having TR in your hand is like having a second copy of another action already in your hand.  A way to think about that is that TR becomes that other card.  Another way to think about it is that TR gives you that other card.  That's all.
Yeah, and having Militia in hand is like having a Militia in hand. A way to think about that is that Militia is that Militia. Another way to think about it is that the Militia gives you that Militia. Why doesn't Militia fit the riddle (if you don't count obviously being an action)?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2014, 09:30:20 pm »
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It's re-framing what TR does.  Imagine that TR is not playing the card twice, but is instead doing Something Mysterious before you play the chosen action card X.  What is that Something Mysterious?  It's an extra play of action card X.  In a sense, this is like it's given or drawn you an extra card X.
Yeah, getting the effects of the action card X is part of Throne Room's effect, getting them again is another part. Why do you "draw a card" for this partial effect of Throne Room?

To fit the riddle.  Really, that is it.  Having TR in your hand is like having a second copy of another action already in your hand.  A way to think about that is that TR becomes that other card.  Another way to think about it is that TR gives you that other card.  That's all.
Yeah, and having Militia in hand is like having a Militia in hand. A way to think about that is that Militia is that Militia. Another way to think about it is that the Militia gives you that Militia. Why doesn't Militia fit the riddle (if you don't count obviously being an action)?

In the end, what does Militia give you?  It gives you $2 and a discard attack.  It doesn't give you another card in any sense, and it certainly doesn't give you an action in any sense.  You could frame it as if it's giving you the effects of another virtual card that happens to give you $2 and a discard attack, except this virtual card is still something specific.

In the end, what does TR give you?  It gives you the effects of another card.  In a (admittedly loose) sense, this is giving you +1 card.  As previously discussed, it also effectively gives you the +1 action needed to "play" that other card.  The key thing here is that this virtual card is NOT specific.  It's generic, depending on whatever card is paired with TR.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2014, 09:34:18 pm »
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The key thing here is that this virtual card is NOT specific.  It's generic, depending on whatever card is paired with TR.
How is that key?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2014, 09:51:27 pm »
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The key thing here is that this virtual card is NOT specific.  It's generic, depending on whatever card is paired with TR.
How is that key?

Because the pseudo-cantrip framing device with something specific can be completely collapsed into just that specific something.  Pseudo-cantrip that draws a pseudo-Militia is effectively just Militia (barring edge cases, yadda yadda).

With TR, the card at the end is not just another TR.  Instead, TR+X is re-imagined as X'+X.

If it helps, forget about the entire virtual pseudo-cantrip stuff.  Instead, here is a much simpler way of looking at it:

Playing TR+X is a lot like playing X+X. 
In this way, it's like TR is becoming another copy of X.
In a sense, "transforming into card X" is like "giving you card X".
In a sense, "drawing you a card X" is like "giving you a card X".

Yes, I know that this is all very loose and abstract, especially after being broken down systematically in an attempt to explain what is supposed to be intuitive. Such is the nature of riddles.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2014, 10:00:38 pm »
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Playing TR+X is a lot like playing X+X. 
In this way, it's like TR is becoming another copy of X.
In a sense, "transforming into card X" is like "giving you card X".
In a sense, "drawing you a card X" is like "giving you a card X".
What do you mean by "giving you a card X"? Because transforming into card X and drawing you a card X are entirely different things, there must be a step in between that I'm not getting.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2014, 10:08:10 pm »
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Playing TR+X is a lot like playing X+X. 
In this way, it's like TR is becoming another copy of X.
In a sense, "transforming into card X" is like "giving you card X".
In a sense, "drawing you a card X" is like "giving you a card X".
What do you mean by "giving you a card X"? Because transforming into card X and drawing you a card X are entirely different things.

Before <action>, you do not have a random card X.  After <action>, you do. 

<action> is getting card X.  It could be fulfilled by something drawing card X, or it could be fulfilled by something transforming into card X.  Thus, both the drawing and the transforming are similar in a sense.


Is this the part where you get hung up then?  This is the kind of abstraction that I just accept as a given when it comes to riddles.  Maybe it's too big a leap for your taste, but it doesn't feel like such a big jump to me.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2014, 10:18:14 pm »
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Before <action>, you do not have a random card X.  After <action>, you do. 

<action> is getting card X.  It could be fulfilled by something drawing card X, or it could be fulfilled by something transforming into card X.  Thus, both the drawing and the transforming are similar in a sense.


Is this the part where you get hung up then?  This is the kind of abstraction that I just accept as a given when it comes to riddles.  Maybe it's too big a leap for your taste, but it doesn't feel like such a big jump to me.
But you kind of do have the card, because it's Throne Room's effect and you have Throne Room.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2014, 10:34:23 pm »
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Before <action>, you do not have a random card X.  After <action>, you do. 

<action> is getting card X.  It could be fulfilled by something drawing card X, or it could be fulfilled by something transforming into card X.  Thus, both the drawing and the transforming are similar in a sense.


Is this the part where you get hung up then?  This is the kind of abstraction that I just accept as a given when it comes to riddles.  Maybe it's too big a leap for your taste, but it doesn't feel like such a big jump to me.
But you kind of do have the card, because it's Throne Room's effect and you have Throne Room.

But you don't have it until you play TR and it "transforms", thus giving it to you.  This is the entire point.

Again I repeat, maybe this is just too big a leap for your taste in riddles, even though it works perfectly for me.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2014, 10:42:12 pm »
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Before <action>, you do not have a random card X.  After <action>, you do. 

<action> is getting card X.  It could be fulfilled by something drawing card X, or it could be fulfilled by something transforming into card X.  Thus, both the drawing and the transforming are similar in a sense.


Is this the part where you get hung up then?  This is the kind of abstraction that I just accept as a given when it comes to riddles.  Maybe it's too big a leap for your taste, but it doesn't feel like such a big jump to me.
But you kind of do have the card, because it's Throne Room's effect and you have Throne Room.

But you don't have it until you play TR and it "transforms", thus giving it to you.  This is the entire point.

Again I repeat, maybe this is just too big a leap for your taste in riddles, even though it works perfectly for me.
Yeah, and you don't have Militia's effect either until you play it. Throne Room isn't any different.

And yeah, the leap is too big for my taste, but I still don't think that even if I was willing to make that leap, Throne Room would be the answer I'd end up with.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:43:36 pm by Awaclus »
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Asper

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2014, 01:02:10 pm »
0

Another one:
Witch does three things. I do one of them once, and two of them twice.

Rewording of the riddle to avoid arguments later:

Witch does three things, one twice. I do the one it does twice twice and the other two too.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 02:50:26 pm by Asper »
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soulnet

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2014, 01:47:21 pm »
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Another one:
Witch does three things. I do one of them once, and two of them twice.

From your point of view, Witch draws cards, deals Curses to an opponent and makes you receive Curses. In a 3 player game, you draw just once from a single Witch/player, but deal out two Curses and receive two Curses (one per Witch of each opponent).
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Asper

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2014, 02:48:59 pm »
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Another one:
Witch does three things. I do one of them once, and two of them twice.

From your point of view, Witch draws cards, deals Curses to an opponent and makes you receive Curses. In a 3 player game, you draw just once from a single Witch/player, but deal out two Curses and receive two Curses (one per Witch of each opponent).

That's not quite it.
Let me reword that so it works better:

Witch does three things, one twice. I do the one it does twice twice and the other two too.
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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2014, 03:07:23 pm »
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The one that you do twice is drawing cards, one of the ones is giving curses, but I'm not sure what the last is.  Playing the card itself?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2014, 03:55:45 pm »
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Before <action>, you do not have a random card X.  After <action>, you do. 

<action> is getting card X.  It could be fulfilled by something drawing card X, or it could be fulfilled by something transforming into card X.  Thus, both the drawing and the transforming are similar in a sense.


Is this the part where you get hung up then?  This is the kind of abstraction that I just accept as a given when it comes to riddles.  Maybe it's too big a leap for your taste, but it doesn't feel like such a big jump to me.
But you kind of do have the card, because it's Throne Room's effect and you have Throne Room.

But you don't have it until you play TR and it "transforms", thus giving it to you.  This is the entire point.

Again I repeat, maybe this is just too big a leap for your taste in riddles, even though it works perfectly for me.
Yeah, and you don't have Militia's effect either until you play it. Throne Room isn't any different.

And yeah, the leap is too big for my taste, but I still don't think that even if I was willing to make that leap, Throne Room would be the answer I'd end up with.

Except the effect that TR gives can arguably fit the riddle, whereas Militia's effect cannot.  Again, the point.
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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2014, 04:01:09 pm »
+1

Another one:
Witch does three things. I do one of them once, and two of them twice.

Rewording of the riddle to avoid arguments later:

Witch does three things, one twice. I do the one it does twice twice and the other two too.

followers?

liopoil

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2014, 04:20:41 pm »
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torturer?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2014, 04:33:26 pm »
0

Another one:
Witch does three things. I do one of them once, and two of them twice.

Rewording of the riddle to avoid arguments later:

Witch does three things, one twice. I do the one it does twice twice and the other two too.

followers?

I agree with this.

Witch does three things:

gets played?
draws a card (twice)
hands out a curse (at least once, depending on players)

If it does the one it does twice twice, then it draws a card twice.  It does the other two too, so it basically does the same thing.  Followers fits the bill.  Followers also gains an Estate and causes others to discard, but the riddle doesn't preclude doing extra things.




On a separate note, I have no idea about silverspawn's third riddle.
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liopoil

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2014, 04:36:19 pm »
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Witch does three things:

draw a card
draw a card
deals out a curse

This card does the drawing a card twice and also does the other two. So it:

draws a card (x2)
draws a card
deals out a curse

torturer is closest. You could even consider it drawing negative cards for the other players, but that only sort of fits. So maybe that's not what he meant.
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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2014, 04:38:45 pm »
0

Another one:
Witch does three things. I do one of them once, and two of them twice.

Rewording of the riddle to avoid arguments later:

Witch does three things, one twice. I do the one it does twice twice and the other two too.

followers?

I agree with this.

Witch does three things:

gets played?
draws a card (twice)
hands out a curse (at least once, depending on players)

If it does the one it does twice twice, then it draws a card twice.  It does the other two too, so it basically does the same thing.  Followers fits the bill.  Followers also gains an Estate and causes others to discard, but the riddle doesn't preclude doing extra things.




On a separate note, I have no idea about silverspawn's third riddle.

The card is correct, but the reasoning why is not yet.
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