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Author Topic: What Card Am I?  (Read 47628 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2014, 12:41:10 am »
+1

The OP gave me +1. I think that means I was right?

How do you see who gave you your +1s?

You click on the tab next to the +number. It shows who's +'ed it.
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Nik

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2014, 07:39:52 am »
+1

You're right! It's Throne Room.
This riddle is much harder:

Manned only with a sword
(And an Adventurer, too)
Ran I did, to the
Grave of Marram.
Ran, I did, none like a Rogue
And the Adventurer asked me 'must we keep running?'
'Vad' I told him, for that was his name
'End it would be if we were not running.'

That's a really hard riddle, so here are three hints to help you on your way:
If you've read A Series of Unfortunate Events, this might be easier for you.
There are two ways to solve this.
The card I am talking about costs $5.




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silverspawn

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2014, 08:49:36 am »
+4

You're right! It's Throne Room.

that doesn't make sense. throne room is an action. and it doesn't give +1action or +1card or neither, it can give any number of +cards and several +actions.  >:(

Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2014, 08:52:02 am »
+1

The OP gave me +1. I think that means I was right?

How do you see who gave you your +1s?
By clicking on the icon that looks like a person with a "?" on his face next to the arrow icon (or just next to the number if it's your own post).

Nik

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2014, 09:17:03 am »
+1

You're right! It's Throne Room.

that doesn't make sense. throne room is an action. and it doesn't give +1action or +1card or neither, it can give any number of +cards and several +actions.  >:(
Well, cards that give you +1 action are generally referred to as 'free actions.' Throne Room gives you +1 card because it's like taking a card from the Supply. And it lets you play that card along with another, so it's also like +1 action.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 09:22:27 am »
0

Throne Room gives you +1 card because it's like taking a card from the Supply. And it lets you play that card along with another, so it's also like +1 action.
But if you play Throne Room, you end up with two less cards in your hand and one less action than you started with unless the Action you're playing twice gives +cards or +actions.

heron

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 09:43:23 am »
+3

Well, the second riddle is pretty clearly Margrave.
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Nik

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 10:07:46 am »
0

Well, the second riddle is pretty clearly Margrave.
Wow! It is Margrave! Just to make sure you weren't guessing, how did you know?
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2014, 10:13:30 am »
+2

Well, the second riddle is pretty clearly Margrave.
Wow! It is Margrave! Just to make sure you weren't guessing, how did you know?

Well it's one of those classic poem riddle thingies where the answer is spelled vertically in each line's first letter. Like in King's Quest 6!
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SirPeebles

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2014, 11:03:15 am »
0

Yeah, I got it just from reading the first letters.  I didn't even read much of the riddle itself, since the card name appeared so prominently to me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2014, 12:34:32 pm »
+4

You're right! It's Throne Room.

that doesn't make sense. throne room is an action. and it doesn't give +1action or +1card or neither, it can give any number of +cards and several +actions.  >:(

It's a riddle. I explained how it works on the previous page, and it makes perfect sense. You just have to think abstractly.



Edit: Here is a more thorough explanation.

I am an Action, but yet I am not

You guy mostly settled on Venture, with the justification that it is *like* an Action in that Venture is reminiscent of Adventurer, but it is also not actually an action because it's a treasure.  OK, that's fair.  It's an interesting take on the clue.  A different but no less valid interpretation is to find an actual action that is *not like* an action.  The clue says that the card both IS and IS NOT an action, so you have to think creatively either way.

Throne Room is an actual Action, but by itself it doesn't do anything at all.  In this way, it's sort of not an action and fits the clue.  I think it fits much better than Venture because the wordplay for Venture is pretty weak; it's quite a stretch to say that Venture IS an action.  It's an easier to leap to say that Throne Room isn't an action, since it does effectively nothing when you play it, at least until you play a different action card.

I give you +1 Action, but yet I do not
I give you +1 card, but yet I do not


It's clear enough how this is supposed to apply to Venture.  It actually doesn't fit so well for the second half of the clue.  Venture really does draw a card.  It *literally* doesn't give +1 Card, but it effectively does.  Still, I think it leans far more towards the "gives +1 card" side than the "does not give +1 card" side.  I am really surprised that people don't see how the clue applies to the actual answer.

When you play TR on an action, it effectively lets you play a second copy of that card.  Getting that "second copy" can be interpreted as getting +1 Card.  Being able to freely play it is like getting +1 Action.

Or, a different way to think about how the card works:

Playing Throne Room on a card is effectively equivalent to adding +1 Card, +1 Action to that card, with the added requirement that the card you draw is another copy of the first card and that you play that card immediately.  In this way, it *does* give you +1 Card and +1 Action.  However, the card you "draw" is virtual and doesn't even exist in your deck, so "yet it does not" give +1 Card.  You can't play anything other than that card so "yet it does not" give +1 Action.

Hopefully that clears it up.




Throne Room gives you +1 card because it's like taking a card from the Supply. And it lets you play that card along with another, so it's also like +1 action.
But if you play Throne Room, you end up with two less cards in your hand and one less action than you started with unless the Action you're playing twice gives +cards or +actions.

It's not about the net effect, it's about what the card itself gives you when you play it.  The total net effect depends on the card that TR is playing, not on TR itself.  TR itself can be thought of as giving +1 Card, +1 Action as per my explanation above. :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 01:19:44 pm by eHalcyon »
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RTT

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2014, 01:50:05 pm »
+3

Procession should work just as well as Throne Room does.
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silverspawn

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2014, 02:23:32 pm »
0

Quote
It's a riddle. I explained how it works on the previous page, and it makes perfect sense. You just have to think abstractly.

.... okay  :'(

KingZog3

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2014, 02:24:38 pm »
0

Procession should work just as well as Throne Room does.

And King's Court
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2014, 02:36:24 pm »
+1

Procession should work just as well as Throne Room does.

And King's Court

Not KC, because that would be "drawing" two extra cards and playing two extra actions.
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KingZog3

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2014, 03:20:04 pm »
+1

Procession should work just as well as Throne Room does.

And King's Court

Not KC, because that would be "drawing" two extra cards and playing two extra actions.

Whatever. You solved it. And the margrave riddle was solved too. New riddle please!
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2014, 07:39:39 pm »
+1

Playing Throne Room on a card is effectively equivalent to adding +1 Card, +1 Action to that card, with the added requirement that the card you draw is another copy of the first card and that you play that card immediately.  In this way, it *does* give you +1 Card and +1 Action.  However, the card you "draw" is virtual and doesn't even exist in your deck, so "yet it does not" give +1 Card.  You can't play anything other than that card so "yet it does not" give +1 Action.
Isn't that also true for, say, Militia? It's effectively equivalent to being just simply +1 Card, +1 Action with the added requirement that the card you draw is a Militia and that you play it immediately.

soulnet

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2014, 10:46:34 pm »
0

Isn't that also true for, say, Militia? It's effectively equivalent to being just simply +1 Card, +1 Action with the added requirement that the card you draw is a Militia and that you play it immediately.

I agree completely. Venture is convoluted, but I think fits way better.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2014, 10:52:56 pm »
+2

Playing Throne Room on a card is effectively equivalent to adding +1 Card, +1 Action to that card, with the added requirement that the card you draw is another copy of the first card and that you play that card immediately.  In this way, it *does* give you +1 Card and +1 Action.  However, the card you "draw" is virtual and doesn't even exist in your deck, so "yet it does not" give +1 Card.  You can't play anything other than that card so "yet it does not" give +1 Action.
Isn't that also true for, say, Militia? It's effectively equivalent to being just simply +1 Card, +1 Action with the added requirement that the card you draw is a Militia and that you play it immediately.

That makes no sense.  Playing Militia doesn't give you an extra Militia card drawn or Militia played.  Playing Throne Room + Militia (or generic card X) is like playing Militia (or X) and getting an extra +1 Card, +1 Action where the drawn card is a second virtual Militia (or X), which you then immediately play.

Seriously, it baffles me that this is confusing people.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 10:56:48 pm by eHalcyon »
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2014, 11:02:52 pm »
+1

That makes no sense.  Playing Militia doesn't give you an extra Militia card drawn or Militia played.  Playing Throne Room + Militia (or generic card X) is like playing Militia (or X) and getting an extra +1 Card, +1 Action where the drawn card is a second virtual Militia (or X), which you then immediately play.
I agree that it makes no sense, but it's the same logic you're using for Throne Room.

I'd argue that Duchess is at least as fitting as Throne Room, since playing Duchess is like playing an Abandoned Mine and getting and extra +1 Card, +1 Action where the drawn card is a second virtual Abandoned Mine, which you then immediately play. And it's also an Action, but you usually gain it when you buy a Victory card, so for example Quarry doesn't help with that.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:08:27 pm by Awaclus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2014, 11:07:52 pm »
+1

That makes no sense.  Playing Militia doesn't give you an extra Militia card drawn or Militia played.  Playing Throne Room + Militia (or generic card X) is like playing Militia (or X) and getting an extra +1 Card, +1 Action where the drawn card is a second virtual Militia (or X), which you then immediately play.
I agree that it makes no sense, but it's the same logic you're using for Throne Room.

It really, really isn't.  I must not be explaining it well enough.



Suppose you play TR-Peddler.  Net effect is +2 Cards, +2 Actions, +$2.

An equivalent set of actions would be playing BonusPeddler followed by Peddler, where Bonus Peddler gives +2 Cards, +2 Actions, +$1.  In other words, BonusPeddler is Peddler with an extra +1 Card, +1 Action. 

Where is this extra (virtual) +1 Card, +1 Action coming from?  It's coming from the Throne Room.

Edit: scratch this, this is not what I mean.  I think I'm getting confused trying to explain it differently.  Using a non-terminal makes it harder to see, and talking about net effects isn't the right way to look at it either.  Going to redo this with a different action...

Edit again: actually, it's fine.  But I'll still try including a terminal action example to help...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:18:51 pm by eHalcyon »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2014, 11:11:36 pm »
+1

I'd argue that Duchess is at least as fitting as Throne Room, since playing Duchess is like playing an Abandoned Mine and getting and extra +1 Card, +1 Action where the drawn card is a second virtual Abandoned Mine, which you then immediately play. And it's also an Action, but you usually gain it when you buy a Victory card, so for example Quarry doesn't help with that.

That doesn't work because Duchess and Abandoned Mine have nothing to do with each other.  The way you gain a Duchess doesn't make it "not an action" even in an abstract sense.  It's not a good fit at all.

Does the new example I gave above help with understanding how Throne Room fits perfectly?  I'm genuinely trying to help here.  This way of concepting Throne Room is completely intuitive to me so I am having a lot of trouble figuring out what you guys are missing and explaining it adequately...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:14:06 pm by eHalcyon »
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2014, 11:18:07 pm »
0

That doesn't work because Duchess and Abandoned Mine have nothing to do with each other.
What? If we ignore the self-spy, it's the same thing as playing Abandoned Mine with Throne Room. Why wouldn't it work?

Suppose you play TR-Peddler.  Net effect is +2 Cards, +2 Actions, +$2.

An equivalent set of actions would be playing BonusPeddler followed by Peddler, where Bonus Peddler gives +2 Cards, +2 Actions, +$1.  In other words, BonusPeddler is Peddler with an extra +1 Card, +1 Action. 

Where is this extra (virtual) +1 Card, +1 Action coming from?  It's coming from the Throne Room.
But if you play BonusPeddler followed by Peddler, you'll end up with 6 cards in hand.

EDIT: Also, I don't think there is anything I'm missing here, I just think that it's wrong.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:22:41 pm by Awaclus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:38 pm »
+2

Ugh, actually, the Peddler example was not explained properly.  It's confusing because Peddler is already non-terminal.  And I guess I'm not properly explaining how TR fits in.

But I think I know what the confusion is now.  The puzzle is utilising two different abstractions of Throne Room.

First abstraction is "Throne Room as a pseudo village", where you can imagine it as being a village that draws a second copy of the chosen card, and then you play both copies consecutively.  Can I trust that this is understood without further explanation?  This is one of the more common ways of thinking of TR, I think.  In this case, it fits the +1 Card of the riddle but it's more +2 actions than +1 action.

Second abstraction is that TR becomes a "bonus" version of the chosen card, where the bonus is an extra +1 Action.  This better fits the +1 action portion of the riddle.

I'm combining the two abstractions, so TR is giving/drawing you a virtual copy of the chosen card (fulfilling the +1 card part of the riddle) and granting you the ability to play it for free (fulfilling the +1 action part of the riddle).







The Duchess/Abandoned Mine thing doesn't work because there's no reason to just suddenly split the Duchess in half.  I'm really not sure what you're getting at with that.
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Awaclus

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Re: What Card Am I?
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2014, 11:33:52 pm »
0

The Duchess/Abandoned Mine thing doesn't work because there's no reason to just suddenly split the Duchess in half.  I'm really not sure what you're getting at with that.
So why is there a reason to suddenly split the Throne Room in half?
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