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theJester

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Improving Alt-VP strategies
« on: February 26, 2014, 05:29:13 pm »
+6

Being relatively inexperienced player (Goko rating about 4500) and looking to improve my play, I registered here and thought to ask for feedback regarding some my games. So, hello all :D

In particular, I've been having some interesting sets recently where various alt-VP strategies were rivaling or overwhelming traditional Province-based ones. Since I have little experience playing alt-VP sets, it's quite probable I've erred in various ways in these games. Any feedback is welcome.

Game 1: Feodum



Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Smugglers, Steward, Feodum, JackOfAllTrades, Tournament, Cultist, Ill-Gotten Gains, Knights, Saboteur
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140213/log.516d5f8be4b082c74d7bcbbc.1392325344542.txt

Before this game, I used to underestimate Feodum. Not any more - as I got completely trashed here without ever coming nowhere near contesting my opponent. We both opened Jack of all Trades/Steward, and while my opponent trashed consistently and got his first Province ASAP, I got carried away, abandoned trashing and opted for Cultist. With his thin deck, opponent connected his Tournament and Province relatively quickly, got Trusty Steed and started pumping more and more silver into his deck with each play. In the end, each of his 8 Feodums were 9 points worth.

So, is Trusty Steed/Feodum right way to go here? Is some Province plan quick enough to stop it? Would Feodum still be right way to go without Tournament on the board?

Game 2: Duke/Silk Roads



Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Horse Traders, Silk Road, Smithy, Cache, Duke, Haggler, Margrave, Stables
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140222/log.515c0c7ce4b093d38b19b125.1393098007619.txt

This set, as it seemed to me, heavily favoured Duke strategy - Horse traders, Cache and Silk Road should all go splendidly with it. I opened HT/Silver and started gaining Caches and 1 more HT, while my opponent basically went Big Money + Margrave. Despite winning by relatively narrow margin (76-70), my opponent would have probably won if he bought Silk Roads instead of Dukes and Estate (T18).

My gut feeling is that Duke is best possible strategy here and that Province player should not have come so close. So, did I misplay my game? Started greening too early? Gotten too few Horse Traders? Or am I wrong and Province-based strategy is viable here?

Game 3: Duke/Silk Road



Code: [Select]
Duchess, Chancellor, Coppersmith, Sea Hag, Silk Road, Bandit Camp, Duke, Explorer, Haggler, Border Village
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140222/log.515c0c7ce4b093d38b19b125.1393097338461.txt

We both opened Sea Hag/Silver and went for Duchies with some Haggler support. I started buying victory cards earlier, while my opponent took his time to buy 3 Bandit Villages - whose Spoils enabled him to snatch some Provinces later. It turns out that his Provinces ensured him insurmountable lead. On my last turn, I bought the last Curse to 3-pile the game, as I couldn't know the score and feared it would only get worse for me it the game went on. I ended up losing with four points.

Any improvements here on my general plan or its execution? Was Bandit Camp really the way to go here?

Game 4: Gardens



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Moat, Storeroom, Bureaucrat, Gardens, Navigator, Harvest, Journeyman, Mountebank, Grand Market
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140226/log.515c0c7ce4b093d38b19b125.1393445555446.txt

The question here was - whether to go for Mountebank and/or Grand Market or Storeroom/Gardens. My opponent went for former, I decided to try latter. Game ended on turn 22, with Gardens, Storerooms and Estate pile empty. Though I won by a small margin, I'm convinced I would be toast with better play from my opponent. Had he snatched more than 1 Gardens from he, I would have lost. Had the game lasted 1 turn longer, I would have lost. Had my opponent not helped me empty Storeroom pile, I would have lost. Had he ignored Grand Market and Fool's Gold and went straight for Money + Mountebank or Money + Journeyman, I'd probably lose convincingly.

So, was Gardens really the best option here? Should it win the game against Mountebank player? Or did I somehow misplay my hands?
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KingZog3

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2014, 06:46:26 pm »
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Welcome! Don't check out the forum games!

I only really looked at your second game with Duke and Cache. The first thing that stands out to me is that 3 Caches is a lot. The third one probably should have been a Duchy. Also you need to get more Dukes. You only had 5 Dukes by the end. If they are worth 6VP, then you're winning. No need to get a 7th Duchy until you have most of the Dukes, because they are already worth Provinces, plus you have all those Duchies to add VP.

Also your spare buys should probably be copper. You did use them sometimes, but others times you didn't. You'll probably want to use them all for extra copper.
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sudgy

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2014, 07:04:51 pm »
0

Welcome! Don't check out the forum games!

FTFY

(sorry, I haven't read the logs so I don't have anything to add)
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

DG

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2014, 07:41:51 pm »
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First game: Opponent wins by turn 8 with good draws and he can finish it in any fashion. By taking the noble steed he denies you any chance of a comeback with foedum play.

Second game: You don't need the cache's here. Just get a few horse traders and then plough through the duchies and dukes. Copper from the cache is weak in three card hands.

Third game:  You just want to pick a few prime terminals here. Bandit camp and border village are not important. So one sea hag, maybe second sea hag, and a couple of hagglers or explorers. You can take a duchess or two once your sea hag is a dead card.

Fourth game: As with the other games, prepare your deck then go green. Don't discard and draw with the storerooms once your deck is deteriorating with each shuffle. I suspect a pure storeroom strategy has trouble here once the mountebank player steals a couple of gardens.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 07:42:12 pm »
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Welcome to the forums!  Here are my thoughts, which are not guaranteed to be that great. ;)

In game 1, you should not be too focused on Trusty Steed/Feodum.  While that can be profitable, the problem is that it is unreliable.  You cannot guarantee that you'll be able to connect Province and Tournament, and even if you do, it might be too late (whether the game is almost over or your opponent gets the Steed first).

You should be trashing more aggressively.  On turn 4, you discard Overgrown Estate.  It would have been better to keep it in your hand to trash with JoaT, which would have drawn you a fifth card anyway.  On turn 5, you should trash with Steward and just not buy anything.  Trashing is extremely powerful and Steward is a good trasher.

Overall strategy on this board is actually going to be pretty tricky though.  Strong trashing makes Tournament a consideration.  On the flip side, Knights could wreak havoc against a tight deck.  Cultist and IGG are strong junkers too.  I think the game will have to be very reactive.  My general strategy would be to trash down and pick up some Tournaments for early economy and Hamlets to facilitate an engine, then pick up Cultists and Knights to slam my opponent.

But again, it's tricky.  I'll leave it to better players to suggest more specific strategies.  My main advice is just to either trash more aggressively with Steward.  If you're not going to trash aggressively, you're better off skipping Steward and doing something else.  JoaT-BM?  Rush the IGGs?  I don't know, but Steward is best for the early trashing, with the card and money options only minor bonuses for after trashing is done.

Game 2 is definitely a Duke kind of board.  I think I would skip Cache here.  Cache costs $5, which is much better spent on Duchies and Dukes.  While the Coppers don't hurt, they slow you down.  Even on $5 I think I'd rather take Haggler.  But the real star here is Horse Traders, which gets you to $5 very reliably.  There's even an article about HT-Duke!

I think I would open HT/Candlestick Maker on 4/3, Haggler/CM on 5/2.  I like CM here because it is non-terminal and the coin tokens will allow you to green even earlier and still hit $5 consistently.  Haggler is nice so that you can pick up Duchy/HT or HT/Silver or HT/CM.  It's just pretty flexible.  After the opening, I'd try to get two HTs to start and then immediately go after Duchies, maybe picking up a third HT on a $4 hand.  In a mirror, you need to get all the Duchies you can before they are gone.  In a non-mirror... I'd still go for Duchies first most of the time.  Taking the Duchy denies those possible points from the opponent.

Looking at your deck composition at the end of the game, I'd say that you definitely overdid it on Cache and you could have used a few Candlestick Makers.  Cache did you much more harm than good, because every time you bought Cache, you could have bought Duchy instead and ended the game that much sooner.

Game 3: I think I would go for Duke here as well.  Sea Hag to start, and Haggler is decent support.  One mistake you made was declining on Duchess so often.  Your deck could have handled a lot more.  Duchess is not that bad and it would have improved your deck.

One way to improve your play here would have been to track the score.  If you can keep track of how many Duchies and Dukes you have, you would have known not to end the game when you did.  Granted, your opponent could have ended the game on a win by buying a Curse on the next turn, if he'd been paying attention... but yeah.

By the way, your opponent's lead wasn't really insurmountable.  If you look at the graph, the game was close all the way down.

Game 4: I think I'd go for Storeroom-Gardens.  I would have opened double Storeroom and skipped Silver entirely.  Every play of SR is guaranteed to give you enough for Gardens-Copper or Estate-Estate.  Mountebank doesn't harm you.



Edit: Took another look at game 1 -- you never trash any Copper?  You have 8 at the end.  Trash those Copper!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:47:06 pm by eHalcyon »
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theJester

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 10:03:17 am »
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Thanks for welcomes and suggestions:) I'll be looking forwards to implementing them in next games.
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luser

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 07:15:52 am »
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Game 1: Opponent got lucky here. Main question here is how viable is a hamlet-jack engine. Opening  jack/steward is OK. I would buy second jack, hamlet and when you could get 5 then cultist even when by stewards +2 coins. With jacks IGG are very powerful so buy one each turn until you start hitting 8. With 10 additional ruins from cultist both deck would likely fill with junk, unless jack engine could kill it at same pace. Also game could end on emptying curse/igg/ruin piles before feodums would worth much.

Here is example that with jack/igg and no engine ignoring igg has disastrous result.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140304/log.5161606fe4b0ad9d06948a25.1393939394339.txt

Game 2: As previously said at least 3-4 horse traders. You will consistently hit 5 and could laugh at opponent margrave which starts read as: Discard two cards (likely duchies), draw two cards.

Game 3: Relatively close with mistakes on both sides, you should build economy more, its sea hag game so it will be long. A duchy split is important so I would not sacrifice these however I would buy  a silver instead first silk road and haggler/bandit camp instead of first duke.

Opponent loves bandit camps too much. His first province buy is mistake, he should buy duchy here. Also he should gain gold instead bandit camp from haggling province as with that thick deck bandit camp is effectively gold that you cannot use on first reshuffle. Also as previously said you should count thresholds. I would wait few turns to buy estate and try to bump a silk road counter.

Game 4: I would also open storeroom/storeroom and try to be flexible. Versus bm a mountebank would help you to slow opponent down to prolong game. Also with storerooms I would first twice buy 2 fools gold versus as storeroom allows you connect these and as reaction when bm opponent buys provinces.
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flies

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2014, 08:49:24 am »
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game3:

I wanted to point out that haggler is also a decent duke enabler for all the silvers it gets you, but with HT available I'd skip it since haggler competes at $5.  Cache is also skippable because you have HT which doesn't compete at $5.  T3 you get silver over HT which is certainly an error.  Cache T4 is arguable, and from there you want to start greening.  And buy extra copper! it helps you hit $5, and it really helps you hit $4, cuz you probably want at least 3 HT before committing to SR. 

I wanted to comment on something else:  You get a duchy T6, and then a HT for five T7, and then two more duchies T8,9, and then a cache T10.  My feeling is that if you need more economy, you want to be picking it up before you green.  Commit!

This is definitely a straightforward duke board where Margrave-BM provinces should get blown out of the water.  The reason it didn't is that you started greening too late.  (I one time saw a plot of when to switch from duchy to duke buying, but there are two basic ideas there: one is that you maximize your current points when you start alternating duke/duchy buys after your fourth duchy, and the other is that you maximize your long term points by winning the duchy split - if you can still assure yourself of getting a significant number of dukes.  In your case, you've got 7 duchies and 5 dukes -> 56 pts vs 6 pts for your opponent.  6 duchies and 6 dukes would be 48 pts vs 10 for your opponent, so you did this optimally.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 01:30:37 pm »
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I don't think the extra copper would actually help. It just slows down cycling back to your HTs. A similar situation is in IGG-Duchy rushes, where it's inadvisable to take copper with IGG every time. I expect that the value of cycling back to HT quickly outweighs the value of extra copper, at least until your deck is full of green. I might take Copper in the mid-to-late game if my hands are so green that even HT can't get me to $5... But in that case the game is almost over anyway, and I'm likely doing well.
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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 12:33:01 am »
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I don't think the extra copper would actually help. It just slows down cycling back to your HTs. A similar situation is in IGG-Duchy rushes, where it's inadvisable to take copper with IGG every time. I expect that the value of cycling back to HT quickly outweighs the value of extra copper, at least until your deck is full of green. I might take Copper in the mid-to-late game if my hands are so green that even HT can't get me to $5... But in that case the game is almost over anyway, and I'm likely doing well.
you may be right, but the IGG comparison is off base because there you're hoping to spike a few provinces which are a LOT harder for the duchy/duke player to get a hold of.  Whether or not to buy copper is surely a question that the sims can answer.

In this particular case, given that there's SR to pick up on $4, I think copper is probably worth it.  In the general duchy/duke case, I think they're probably still worth it, but I woulldn't be too surprised if the sims disagreed with me.
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DStu

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Re: Improving Alt-VP strategies
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 03:57:31 am »
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I don't think the extra copper would actually help. It just slows down cycling back to your HTs. A similar situation is in IGG-Duchy rushes, where it's inadvisable to take copper with IGG every time. I expect that the value of cycling back to HT quickly outweighs the value of extra copper, at least until your deck is full of green. I might take Copper in the mid-to-late game if my hands are so green that even HT can't get me to $5... But in that case the game is almost over anyway, and I'm likely doing well.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=199.0

and:
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'with Copper'
  author: 'rspeer'
  requires: ["Duke", "Horse Traders"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Duchy"
    "Duke"
    "Horse Traders"
    "Estate" if state.countInSupply("Duke") == 0
    "Silver"
    "Copper"
  ]
}
vs
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'wo Copper'
  author: 'rspeer'
  requires: ["Duke", "Horse Traders"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Duchy"
    "Duke"
    "Horse Traders"
    "Estate" if state.countInSupply("Duke") == 0
    "Silver"
  ]
}
55:45 for with Copper
I guess the presence of Silk Road even favors taking Coppers more, because you to get even more $4 cards.

tldr: Take the Copper.

edit: I guess IGG is different because you actually want to get to $8 sometimes, and IGG is only worth $2, while HT alone is worth $3 and you only need 2 Coppers out of 4 cards to get to $5, which your main goal is.  And you can get to $5 without HT in this deck, while it's difficult in an IGG deck (esp. with these curses), and $8 is impossible.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 04:01:47 am by DStu »
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