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Author Topic: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread  (Read 88714 times)

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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2014, 02:54:54 pm »
0

In this first game, I do think you erred big time in trying to shorten the game. You were always going to win long, but there was a chance you could have an off turn and lose by quickly draining piles. So I do think that was a mistake... after he trashed his Mining Villages, he basically had no long game chances, so if I were you I would have taken Duchy/Vagrant on that turn where you emptied the Wells instead.

I've heard some criticism about my trashing Mining Villages too early. I really don't think I trashed my Villages prematurely. The first one was in turn 14, and the sole purpose was to deny Adam the sixth, as I only had $2 without trashing. Then I sacrificed one in turn 18 to get my second Goons. The other two were trashed in my last turn. But I agree that Duchy/Vagrant would've been the safer call for him.

The third game is the biggest question mark in my mind, because I did not leave it convinced that Rebuild should actually lose there! It was not Engine vs. Rebuild, it was Engine vs Double Jack/Rebuild. Psyduck's hybrid strategy was always going to lose. But is Rebuild + Scavenger going to lose to your engine? I don't think so. I mean, while it's definitely a good engine, it still sort of lacks something to do. If Scavenger were Bridge or Monument or Merchant Guild, then yes, engine 100%. But as is, I don't know.

So do you think Rebuild is stronger without a Jack for support? Jack gives you some money, which can make the difference, and countered Margrave nicely. I assume that the second one was too much, though, but I haven't had time to analyse that game deeper.
What I can say by now is that I shouldn't have trashed an Estate with Jack. That was like a reflex. Play Jack, gain Silver, draw a card, trash an Estate. Just dull if you need the Estate as Rebuild fodder. ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 02:57:33 pm by Psyduck »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2014, 02:56:54 pm »
0

I agree with you about people dismissing Rebuild, except I think my engine was pretty fast. On turn 10 I was generating $15 with 3 buys and overdrawing my deck. If I had played a little better at that point (no second Jack, probably Scavenger or something instead) I probably would have had 5 Provinces by turn 12, but also the flexibility to dive for Duchies when I did instead.

...and Psyduck, I think getting more villages to begin with was more important than when they were trashed, but the fact that you trashed them makes my chances in the long game much better. I never said it was a bad play, just an aggressive one that I probably wouldn't have had the cojones to make.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2014, 02:57:46 pm »
0

In this first game, I do think you erred big time in trying to shorten the game. You were always going to win long, but there was a chance you could have an off turn and lose by quickly draining piles. So I do think that was a mistake... after he trashed his Mining Villages, he basically had no long game chances, so if I were you I would have taken Duchy/Vagrant on that turn where you emptied the Wells instead.

I've heard some criticism about my trashing Mining Villages too early. I really don't think I trashed my Villages prematurely. The first one was in turn 14, and the sole purpose was to deny Adam the sixth, as I only had $2 without trashing. Then I sacrificed one in turn 18 to get my second Goons. The other two were trashed in my last turn. But I agree that Duchy/Vagrant would've been the safer call for him.

The third game is the biggest question mark in my mind, because I did not leave it convinced that Rebuild should actually lose there! It was not Engine vs. Rebuild, it was Engine vs Double Jack/Rebuild. Psyduck's hybrid strategy was always going to lose. But is Rebuild + Scavenger going to lose to your engine? I don't think so. I mean, while it's definitely a good engine, it still sort of lacks something to do. If Scavenger were Bridge or Monument or Merchant Guild, then yes, engine 100%. But as is, I don't know.

So do you think, Rebuild is stronger without a Jack for support? Jack gives you some money, which can make the difference, and countered Margrave nicely. I assume that the second one was too much, though, but I haven't had time to analyse that game deeper.
What I can say by now is that I shouldn't have trashed an Estate with Jack. That was like a reflex. Play Jack, gain Silver, draw a card, trash an Estate. Just dull if you need the Estate as Rebuild fodder. ;)

Yeah, well that's why I don't like Jack with Rebuild that much. You don't want to trash your Estates, so what's it doing for you? It's gaining you Silver (which is okay but not like he best thing ever, you'll see your Rebuilds less often). It's giving you terminal drawn, but what if you draw Rebuild that way?

Scavenger is like it's own thing with Rebuild, so I would have opened Scavenger/Silver to go for that.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2014, 03:02:05 pm »
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I agree with you about people dismissing Rebuild, except I think my engine was pretty fast. On turn 10 I was generating $15 with 3 buys and overdrawing my deck. If I had played a little better at that point (no second Jack, probably Scavenger or something instead) I probably would have had 5 Provinces by turn 12, but also the flexibility to dive for Duchies when I did instead.

I think you executed on your approach much closer to perfectly than your opponent did, let me put it that way. And it was still close.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2014, 03:16:33 pm »
0

This is something that I feel like I have a really good handle on with respect to Jack.

I'm pretty sure that most people think that you don't want Jack unless you're benefitting from all aspects of what it does. Jack does four things: Gain silver, sifting, Draw-to-5, trash. I think if you're only going to use like two of those things, then it's still good. Particularly when Gain Silver is one of them, the opportunity cost is very low even if Draw-to-5 really only equals "terminal-draw one card that has a slightly higher chance of being good than normal, but your deck has a lot of Silvers in it." Yeah this is really good for Big Money, but I feel like it's so good for so many other things that people just dismiss:

Example

Jack in my engine provided a source of economy so I had more flexibility over my deck size early without having to worry about money. It provided a little more reliability because starting with a Jack in hand instead of a Margrave can often be just fine to kick off. But even if Jack just gains me a Silver after I've drawn most of my deck, "it's still Jack and it's still good."

Rebuild+Jack has to be really good in spite of the pessimistic way you've presented it. Particularly against constant Margrave attacks (which is why I thought a second Jack might have been justified in Psyduck's deck) it allows you to have a much better chance of hitting $5 which has to be good. Maybe this is totally off-base, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jack+Rebuild was just as good as, if not better than, Scavenger+Rebuild in that particular game against the engine, though the best thing is probably some combination of the two.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2014, 03:19:20 pm »
+1

Ah! We are in total disagreement then  ;D
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2014, 03:21:02 pm »
0

Ah! We are in total disagreement then  ;D

Oh God, I just disagreed with one of the top Dominion players in the world!

*goes back to corner with tail between legs*

 ;D
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2014, 03:26:14 pm »
0

Ah! We are in total disagreement then  ;D

Oh God, I just disagreed with one of the top Dominion players in the world!

*goes back to corner with tail between legs*

 ;D

A week or two ago I would have said, "Yes! that's right! Weep, you dog! Your tears sustain me! Mwahaha!" But I have been losing a lot lately and now I feel sad and meek.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2014, 03:45:55 pm »
+2

I think Robz is pretty much wrong all around about the Rebuild game. The engine is extremely strong, as Jack let's you recover your economy almost immediately after trashing with Chapel. The FV/Jack synergy is strong, and then you get your draw/attack/buy in one nice card (Margrave), what more could you possibly want? The engine doesn't even need to double Province, realistically it just needs to do Province + Duchy a couple times. AdamH is already producing $11 with buys on Turn 7, that's pretty darn fast.

The game isn't even very close. It looks like only a 4 point win, but Psyduck's deck has capped out its scoring capability at the end of  the game. There is no chance after Adam's turn 14 that Psyduck can buy two Provinces without Adam scoring any more points, which is what needed to happen. Just to emphasize, Psyduck needed to buy the Provinces because Rebuilding Duchies could not net enough points.

I would play the engine here, but I would get at least one Jack if I was trying the Rebuild strategy because FV/Jack is awesome, the defense against Margrave is good, the estate trashing (at least 1-2) is still good (it's faster to buy $5s, not Rebuild all your estates), and the economy boost is useful to buy Rebuild. You can't really complain that Psyduck didn't get Scavenger soon enough, he bought one turn 3! I would have liked to seen Psyduck buy another FV instead of Silver on Turn 4. Maybe second Scavenger over second Jack. But really Rebuild just looks slower than the engine.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2014, 04:36:19 pm »
0

Okay, growing a little more confident that I am wrong...
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2014, 07:47:31 am »
+4

Okay, growing a little more confident that I am wrong...

Yes! that's right! Weep, you dog! Your tears sustain me! Mwahaha!
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2014, 03:22:19 pm »
0

DG 3-0 Matste

Game 1 : http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1394134580611.txt.
In my book any game that looks vaguely like a highway kingdom is a highway kingdom.
Game 2 : http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1394135511159.txt.
I stuck to a simpler deck without smugglers, less squires, to bring in more reliable spending.
Game 3:  http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1394136616546.txt.
A monument-treasure type game where I buy inns twice and don't put them one top of the deck, once deliberately and once in error.
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SquisherX

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2014, 05:13:17 pm »
+1

Match with Zaubererer

Game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394141643173.txt
Alchemist race. I start to green a bit too early and he takes it when my economy slows.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394142506614.txt
He allows me to pick up most of the highways, winning handily

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394143061821.txt
Embargos land on some key actions, it becomes a straight up money war

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140306/log.516ff6dfe4b082c74d7e58db.1394143638725.txt
Counting house > montebank
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lespeutere

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2014, 06:23:09 pm »
+3

lespeutere vs GeoLib 3-0



Code: [Select]
Cellar, Fishing Village, Cutpurse, Navigator, Remake, Embassy, Hunting Party, Junk Dealer, Market, Nobles
1-0
Fishing Village/Remake into Hunting Party, Market and Nobles. His Remake misses the shuffle and with my FPA and another unlucky turn in his endgame, I drive it home: 39-23.



Code: [Select]
Swindler, Armory, Band of Misfits, Bazaar, Inn, Venture, Witch, Bank, Forge, King's Court
2-0
He opens witch/nothing, plays witch on t4 which is then hit by one of my double swindlers. I get rather nice luck, hitting 7$ for KC and forge much sooner than he does. He swindles my forge into bank, i get a province first, before going back to getting a forge and keeping the lead. In his final turn, GeoLib can still win, if he swindles a duchy away from me and buys the last province. Instead he hits province: 26-22.



Code: [Select]
University, Great Hall, Woodcutter, Workshop, Gardens, Spy, Young Witch, Council Room, Upgrade, Fairgrounds, Expand
3-0
5/2 for GeoLib again, he opens Uprade into a Uni/CR engine. I go for Workshop/Gardens, get 8 WS before greening and try to stick to the sim optimum. Despite 4 upgrades, he is not able to trash down fast enough, leaving us wondering whether CR/BM might've been the superior choice or whether Fairgrounds/Expand detours cost him a better result than 4 VP Gardens: 41-32. Any comment on this greatly appreciated.

It was a fun match, apart from the usual goko issues. Good luck to GeoLib for upcoming matches!
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GeoLib

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2014, 07:28:18 pm »
+1

I think you're probably over-crediting your luck here lespeutere.

Game 1: I think I could've still won in my last turn if I hadn't played my FV before my HP. If I'd taken the time to play carefully, I might've been able to pull out a double province + remake into nobles turn, which I think would've gotten me the win. My thought process was: "I think I don't want to draw another FV here." Play FV. Play HP "Hey, why did I draw another FV? Right. That is not how HP works."

Game 2: I severely underestimated swindler. I didn't think it would be very powerful with a real curser in the kingdom, but boy was that wrong. At least one of my first silvers should have been a swindler. I don't know what else I did wrong here, but it felt like I just kept hitting $4 over and over and buying silver. The last play I realized the risk of swindling province for province, but figured that my only hope was, as Lespeutere said, swindling duchy buying province (or swindling 2x estate for the tie).

Game 3: I saw him going for workshop/gardens and realized that this would make CR great because the extra card would hardly help him at all. I didn't contest WS so as not to speed up the rush (that was the right play, right?). I think I perhaps should've contested gardens more given the good tfb opportunities. Was university the right play here. It was the only village and I thought the engine would be better with upgrade trashing. It felt way too slow though. I had some idea that I would be able to get fairgrounds to 6, but I think they were just a distraction. Was it worth it to get expand here?

Good games lespeutere and well played.

Side note: "usual goko issues" included 8 attempted games in a row with lespeutere as first player before game 3 each of which had about a minute-long loading screen for me and one of which I just got stuck on the loading screen and had to restart...
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2014, 07:52:36 pm »
+4

Your biggest problem in Game 3, Geolib, is that you don't get your deck cycling fast enough. You shouldn't need more than 1 Silver in the early game, since your deck really wants to use University to gain cards for Upgrading, it doesn't particularly want to buy them . Your Turn 7 Silver buy should be a Spy. And I wouldn't be afraid to turn 1-2 Estates into Great Halls (I think it will speed you up more than it will speed up the 3 pile). The other thing you should consider is trashing Coppers before Estates. It actually removes a card from your deck and lets you play the Universities/Upgrades faster.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2014, 07:50:09 am »
+3

Your biggest problem in Game 3, Geolib, is that you don't get your deck cycling fast enough. You shouldn't need more than 1 Silver in the early game, since your deck really wants to use University to gain cards for Upgrading, it doesn't particularly want to buy them . Your Turn 7 Silver buy should be a Spy. And I wouldn't be afraid to turn 1-2 Estates into Great Halls (I think it will speed you up more than it will speed up the 3 pile). The other thing you should consider is trashing Coppers before Estates. It actually removes a card from your deck and lets you play the Universities/Upgrades faster.

+1 is too subtle, so I'll just state it here: this is so true.
It's the key to making decks like this work.

You also green too early, but greening later is only worth it if you make the deck go round & round.
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GeoLib

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2014, 10:49:46 am »
0

Your biggest problem in Game 3, Geolib, is that you don't get your deck cycling fast enough. You shouldn't need more than 1 Silver in the early game, since your deck really wants to use University to gain cards for Upgrading, it doesn't particularly want to buy them . Your Turn 7 Silver buy should be a Spy. And I wouldn't be afraid to turn 1-2 Estates into Great Halls (I think it will speed you up more than it will speed up the 3 pile). The other thing you should consider is trashing Coppers before Estates. It actually removes a card from your deck and lets you play the Universities/Upgrades faster.

+1 is too subtle, so I'll just state it here: this is so true.
It's the key to making decks like this work.

You also green too early, but greening later is only worth it if you make the deck go round & round.

I think I got scared of the 3-pile and tried to cash in. Then that failed miserably because I actually wanted the game to end before he got too many cards (which happened on the penultimate turn, I think).
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gilds55

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2014, 03:01:54 pm »
0

either one is fine, great job. It was definitely smart on your part in going after the cutlists. Like I said this is my first year in this tournament and I wasn`t looking to do too well. Also the time constraint and fast plays may have been a key part in my loss. And I havn`t been able to "train" that much because of school work. But overall your deck choices were great and probably chosen with a certain strategy in mind. I hope to be more of a worthy opponent next year=)
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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2014, 04:37:38 pm »
+2

yed vs Max_D (MJD)

Game 1
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140309/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394393102293.txt


Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Pawn, Sage, Coppersmith, JackOfAllTrades, Butcher, Treasury, Border Village, Farmland, HoardNice interactions between Butcher, Border Village and Hoard. I was lucky here, though I think these interactions are better then double Jack.

Game 2
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140309/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394394189107.txt


Code: [Select]
Secret Chamber, University, Ambassador, Doctor, Bridge, Caravan, Highway, Laboratory, Merchant Ship, King's CourtWe both open Ambassador-Potion. I'm not sure if that is correct (other choice is Amb-Caravan or double Amb), but my reasoning behind it is that University gaining Laboratory gives you the necessary draw for Ambassador (What does f.ds think about that?). Max_D was unlucky here with his Ambassador being 11th card in 2nd shuffle. I decided to prefer gaining Labs with University over Highway (as Max_D) did. Max_D was first able to get 2 KC. But he had too big a deck so I won huge with almost megaturn (6 provinces). But I'm not sure If I played optimally here. Still lucky win because of that missed Ambassador.

Game 3
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140309/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1394395238866.txt


Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Squire, Urchin, Monument, Navigator, Trader, Highway, Junk Dealer, Pillage, AltarI opened Urchin-Urchin going for Mercenary. I missed collision all lot of times, some of them because his Pillage (nice, I have never thought about Pillage as defense against Mercenary). I was going for some Fools Golds but when he was playing Big-Money-Monument-Pillage I decided to build crazy engine with Highway an Squire...

yed - Max_D 3-0

Max_D: Thank you for the match and good luck in the future rounds.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 04:39:22 pm by yed »
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-Stef-

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #97 on: March 09, 2014, 06:43:41 pm »
0

We both open Ambassador-Potion. I'm not sure if that is correct (other choice is Amb-Caravan or double Amb), but my reasoning behind it is that University gaining Laboratory gives you the necessary draw for Ambassador (What does f.ds think about that?). Max_D was unlucky here with his Ambassador being 11th card in 2nd shuffle. I decided to prefer gaining Labs with University over Highway (as Max_D) did. Max_D was first able to get 2 KC. But he had too big a deck so I won huge with almost megaturn (6 provinces). But I'm not sure If I played optimally here. Still lucky win because of that missed Ambassador.

I would open Ambassador/Potion. (Second choice would be amb/caravan, I don't like double amb at all here. You really need to get to $4 to get to $2P)
You were lucky that he missed, but he also could (should) have used his turn 4 $3 on a second ambassador. Now that he already has the potion and a university, no point in adding money.
The collision here would be unfortunate again, but it would only prevent him from buying another semi dead card (doctor)

I agree with getting (at least some) labs over highways. But following the same line of thought - why get bridge over caravan (your t6) ?
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yed

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #98 on: March 09, 2014, 07:55:55 pm »
0

But following the same line of thought - why get bridge over caravan (your t6) ?
Yes, that was mistake, too early for that. I wanted two price reduction cards for Uni->KC, this was one of them. It later backfired to me when I couldn't have played Uni after Bridge because I had only one action.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 2 Discussion Thread
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2014, 12:07:09 am »
0

...
I just saw this.  Thank you as well MJB for the match!  Well played on your part.  Not my best day :P  I fortunately came home just in time to remember i had a dominion match.  Anyways, it was a lot of fun, I'm sorry about that farmland mishap...  See you around!
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