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Author Topic: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)  (Read 3606 times)

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bmtrocks

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I posted this topic on BGG and got some solid responses, but I wanted some more input on it and thoughts from various people.

I've always wanted to find a way to play the extra randomizer cards that come with the main Dominion set.  Taking inspiration from Black Market, Jester, and Young Witch, I made "Juggler."  You can view the card version here, but here's the transcript:

Juggler
Action-Attack
Cost 4
+1 Action
Reveal the top card of the Juggle deck. Choose one: You gain a copy of that card; or, each other player gains a copy of that card. Shuffle the Juggle deck.
(Before the game, make a Juggle deck out of one copy of each: Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province and Curse.)

As I said I haven't playtested it yet, but I'm really anxious about doing so but I first want to make sure everything is right.  I really want to figure out how to balance the concept out, but also see what cards really works well with it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 02:10:22 am by bmtrocks »
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dondon151

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 11:16:42 pm »
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If the Juggle deck contains Province, it's already way too swingy. Gaining one with a single $4 action is cheap, and that is an understatement.

Now, if the Juggle deck were like the Black Market deck, that would still be swingy, but somewhat amusing.
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bmtrocks

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 11:52:08 pm »
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Yeah gaining a Province is way too easy, though the idea about Juggler is really all about chance w/ benefits.  I think once I actually get ready to print and play it I'll just remove Province from the Juggle deck, cause one could just make a deck full of Jugglers and chain them to gain all the Provinces in minutes if luck is on their side.  I'll playtest both variations and see how it works out.

Another idea is to make the Juggle deck an inverse of the Black Market deck and have a copy of 1 card each from the Supply.  That would be pretty interesting.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 11:53:28 pm »
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Yeah, I'd say just take Province out of it and it is probably interesting.  Free Provinces from a $4 non-terminal action seems to random.  If you just buy these and go crazy it might be pretty strong.  2/7 chance to gain a Duchy or Province, 2/7 chance to gain money, 3/7 to Curse/Copper/Estate your opponent's deck.  Seems like it would have a good chance of slowing your opponent down enough to gain a lot of Duchies/Provinces.   

Kirian

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 01:51:40 am »
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Make it 2xCopper/Curse/Estate/Duchy/4xSilver/Gold.  Nice even 10 cards, 4/10 to attack opponents (Needs to be Action-Attack, like Jester), 2/10 Jackpot cards, 4/10 mediocre card.  Feels more balanced.
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plasticbrain

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 08:12:38 am »
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here's my take... 'Dominion Roulette'...

Wheel of Fortune - Action - 4$
Reveal the top card of the Fortune deck. Gain a copy of that card. Shuffle the Fortune deck.
(Before the game, make a Fortune deck out of 3 copies of Gold, 2 copies of Duchy and 1 copy of Curse.)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:54:07 pm by plasticbrain »
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Kahryl

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2011, 10:10:55 pm »
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Actually, from reading Governor, it would seem that a vanilla "gain a gold" action card should be $4..
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rinkworks

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 10:28:50 am »
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Actually, from reading Governor, it would seem that a vanilla "gain a gold" action card should be $4..

Governor weakens the "gain a gold" instruction by having opponents gain silver.  That suggests that a vanilla "gain a gold" should cost more than Governor, not less.  The fact that Governor offers choices, though, muddies the waters quite a bit, and maybe the best recourse is not to use it as a benchmark at all.
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DStu

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 10:34:26 am »
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Actually, from reading Governor, it would seem that a vanilla "gain a gold" action card should be $4..

I have the feeling (from reading Bag of Gold) that a vanilla "gain a Gold" is not a good kingdom card at any price point. At $4 it is a "guaranteed" Gold in T3/4 (conditioned on not being card 11 or 12), which no other card gives you.

@topic: Like Kirian's modification, but I think I would give it $2 and not +1Action. With the action it's to spammable, and with $2 it's comparable to Swindler or BM or Jester.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 10:36:54 am by DStu »
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Kahryl

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 02:00:25 pm »
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Actually, from reading Governor, it would seem that a vanilla "gain a gold" action card should be $4..

Governor weakens the "gain a gold" instruction by having opponents gain silver.  That suggests that a vanilla "gain a gold" should cost more than Governor, not less.  The fact that Governor offers choices, though, muddies the waters quite a bit, and maybe the best recourse is not to use it as a benchmark at all.

The reason I priced "gain a gold" at $4 is that the other two Governor benefits-to-you mimic Smithy and Remodel, which are both $4 vanilla actions.  The fact that the Governor also gives +1 action and give the enemy a benefit and lets you choose between 3 actions are roughly equal modifications to all of these vanilla effects.

EDIT: now that I think about it, two of the three benefits to the ENEMY each mimic the beneficial effect of a $5 cantrip.  "trash a card and gain one exactly $1 more" is what Upgrade gives with a cantrip.  "+1 card" is what Laboratory gives with a cantrip.  So "+1 card, +1 action, gain a silver" should apparently be priced at $5 (it feels very similar to Explorer..)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 02:05:07 pm by Kahryl »
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rinkworks

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2011, 02:35:38 pm »
+1

Actually, from reading Governor, it would seem that a vanilla "gain a gold" action card should be $4..

Governor weakens the "gain a gold" instruction by having opponents gain silver.  That suggests that a vanilla "gain a gold" should cost more than Governor, not less.  The fact that Governor offers choices, though, muddies the waters quite a bit, and maybe the best recourse is not to use it as a benchmark at all.

The reason I priced "gain a gold" at $4 is that the other two Governor benefits-to-you mimic Smithy and Remodel, which are both $4 vanilla actions.  The fact that the Governor also gives +1 action and give the enemy a benefit and lets you choose between 3 actions are roughly equal modifications to all of these vanilla effects.

I like your mathematical reasoning there, but I think there's a limit to how well that kind of calculation works in practice.  And I also think it's flawed to assume that the three choices are supposed to be equal benefits.  Consider the following card:

Choose one (you get the one in parentheses):  Each player gets three Provinces (two Colonies); or +$1 (+$2).

We can quibble about the details if you want, because this is a strictly top-of-my-head example (and I don't know how +$ works when it's not your turn), but my intent was to propose a card where the margin of benefit between the choices is roughly equal, but the magnitude is not.  We can't assume that, just because these choices are present and both are potentially good choices at any given point in the game, that each component of each choice is equal in power to its counterparts.  That is, "gain three Provinces" probably isn't equally powerful as +$1, and nor is "gain two Colonies" equally powerful as +$2.  Maybe a clearer illustration of this principle is this:

Choose one (you get the one in parentheses):  Each player gets +1 (+2) Cards; or +2 (+3) Cards.

And I think we have to chalk the actual Governor card as illustrating this principle.  As others have pointed out, a "gain a Gold" card as an opener does something more powerful than any other existing official card does.

There's also something maddeningly non-mathematical about this:

The fact that the Governor also gives +1 action and give the enemy a benefit and lets you choose between 3 actions are roughly equal modifications to all of these vanilla effects.

The value of adding +1 Action onto any given behavior is not constant.  As an illustration of this principle, let's take Moat and Duchess, two $2 cards, and add +1 Action onto them.

Duchess' Spying powers cancel each other out, so we basically have a card that offers "+1 Action, +$2."  This is almost exactly a Silver, with a few different nuances in the fact that it's an Action card instead of a Treasure card.  Certainly it's dramatically inferior to Festival, which is the same except that it gives a second Action and +Buy.  So you'd think maybe $3 is the correct cost for a non-terminal Duchess.

A non-terminal Moat, however, is strictly superior to a Laboratory!  It offers +2 Cards, +1 Action, AND immunity from attacks.  A cost of $6 would be an absolute minimum, and I'd probably make the case that it should really be $7.

What this means for Governor is that even if you establish to yourself that all its options in terminal form are of roughly equal power, it doesn't necessarily follow that they would then be equal in non-terminal form.
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Kahryl

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Re: Juggler - a way to play the extra randomizer cards (not playtested)
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 02:52:42 pm »
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Those are all good points.  I'm aware you can't just linearly add up the benefits of a card and come to the price that way.  If you could, the following prices for vanilla cards:

+2 cards, +1 action - $5
+3 cards - $4
+1 card +2 actions - $3

..don't make sense, no matter how you linearly value +cards and +actions.

And I'm aware that the benefits-to-you and benefits-to-enemy don't have to be equal to make the differences between them equal.

I guess I should have said that Governor implies a $4 vanilla gain-a-gold, and thinking about it (without playtesting), it sounds like a fair price to me.  But I agree that you can't conclude anything just from Governor's design (even assuming IT is properly balanced).
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