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silverspawn

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2014, 03:11:18 pm »
0

Quote
The way you phrased it, this is very close to a Junk Dealer, maybe a little worse, so it should be worth $4

well no, because junk dealer is +1$, +2 cards, trash a card from your hand. the "in games using this" effect works for all cards, so it doesn't change the cost of the card it is on.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2014, 03:22:32 pm »
0

@eHalcyon and silverspawn:
I admit you're both right. I try to think of larger concepts but I still don't think big enough, as it seems. But hey, I expect to learn more about meta-game and stuff here, so thanks for correcting me.
Quote
The way you phrased it, this is very close to a Junk Dealer, maybe a little worse, so it should be worth $4

well no, because junk dealer is +1$, +2 cards, trash a card from your hand. the "in games using this" effect works for all cards, so it doesn't change the cost of the card it is on.
What if this one is the only trasher in the kingdom? Isn't it a Junk Dealer then, because there's no comparable card around?
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KingZog3

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2014, 03:23:56 pm »
+1

Quote
The way you phrased it, this is very close to a Junk Dealer, maybe a little worse, so it should be worth $4

well no, because junk dealer is +1$, +2 cards, trash a card from your hand. the "in games using this" effect works for all cards, so it doesn't change the cost of the card it is on.

But on its own, it is basically Junk Dealer. +1action, +$1, trash a card. But you draw a card for trashing. You draw after you trash, which matters, but it's still close.
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2014, 03:25:08 pm »
+1

Quote
The way you phrased it, this is very close to a Junk Dealer, maybe a little worse, so it should be worth $4

well no, because junk dealer is +1$, +2 cards, trash a card from your hand. the "in games using this" effect works for all cards, so it doesn't change the cost of the card it is on.

But on its own, it is basically Junk Dealer. +1action, +$1, trash a card. But you draw a card for trashing. You draw after you trash, which matters, but it's still close.
Heh, I basically said the same thing ;)
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2014, 03:25:55 pm »
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Quote
The way you phrased it, this is very close to a Junk Dealer, maybe a little worse, so it should be worth $4

well no, because junk dealer is +1$, +2 cards, trash a card from your hand. the "in games using this" effect works for all cards, so it doesn't change the cost of the card it is on.

But on its own, it is basically Junk Dealer. +1action, +$1, trash a card. But you draw a card for trashing. You draw after you trash, which matters, but it's still close.
Heh, I basically said the same thing ;)

Yeah. When started writing my post you hadn't posted yet.
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silverspawn

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2014, 08:40:52 pm »
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The way you phrased it, this is very close to a Junk Dealer, maybe a little worse, so it should be worth $4

well no, because junk dealer is +1$, +2 cards, trash a card from your hand. the "in games using this" effect works for all cards, so it doesn't change the cost of the card it is on.

But on its own, it is basically Junk Dealer. +1action, +$1, trash a card. But you draw a card for trashing. You draw after you trash, which matters, but it's still close.

yea, if there is no other trasher, it's killer for $2, no doubt. it may be a good idea to make the card itself weaker, since the goal is to bring in new strategies. if the card itself is bad but it makes trashing in general stronger, it might make strategies viable that usually aren't. a forager deck with this bonus would be crazy.

pacovf

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2014, 12:11:20 pm »
+1

I don't think it is a good idea to put an "in games using this..." effect on a card that drastically changes the power level of some (but not most) cards, including the card itself, because it makes pricing the card very difficult, as showcased with:

Action - 2$ - ?
+1 Action
+1$
Trash a card from your hand.
--------
In games using this, whenever you trash a card, you may draw a card

If you price it at two and it is the only trasher in the kingdom, then you have nearly a junk-dealer for 2$ instead of 5$, which messes with the balance of the game. Junk dealer probably doesn't break the game at 2$, but that's just an example. On the other hand, if Junk dealer is in the kingdom, then Junk dealer is strictly better than this, so it should cost less. What do you do, then, what price do you give to this card?

If I slapped the effect "In games using this, whenever you reveal a card, you might trash or discard it" on scout, I would be against pricing that card at 4$ (as overpriced as scout already is), even though if sage is also in the kingdom it would severely outclass it.

So what you want is an effect that either:
a) doesn't apply to the card itself
b) only applies to the card itself (and then why not put the effect on the card itself if possible?)
c) applies to all (or at least most) cards equally.

So that the card can be priced fairly.

Note that the only official card using the exact phrasing "In games using this, ..." is duchess, every other card discusse here actually reads "setup: ...". Interesting points to consider are embargo and trade route, since they add rules to the game that are in effect even if no example of those cards are currently visible (gaining curses, moving coin tokens around). So a cost-modifying effect would be alright for example, since by the time the pile runs out, most players should have internalized already that the cards' prices are different than usually. Same with Young Witch and the bane, you are expected to remember what card was the bane even though it's not written anywhere.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 01:42:07 pm by pacovf »
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silverspawn

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2014, 01:07:26 pm »
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Quote
If you price it at two and it is the only trasher in the kingdom, then you have nearly a junk-dealer for 2$ instead of 5$, which messes with the balance of the game.
that's the point

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2014, 01:23:46 pm »
+2

I don't think it's a good idea to have effects that just make trashing more powerful, since you pretty much have to go for trashing anyway. Junk Dealer is one of the best $5 cards, it would be ridiculous to have a card as powerful as Junk Dealer at $2, and it is even more ridiculous to give Junk Dealer an extra +1 card. In general, I was mostly thinking of effects that affect all players regardless of what cards they have, because otherwise, most of the time it doesn't matter if it's a "in games using this" effect that has synergy with the top half or just a top half with the synergy built in it and when it matters, it usually just makes things worse.
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pacovf

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2014, 01:38:00 pm »
+1

Quote
If you price it at two and it is the only trasher in the kingdom, then you have nearly a junk-dealer for 2$ instead of 5$, which messes with the balance of the game.
that's the point

I disagree. Changing the rules (and hence the balance and viable strategies) of a given kingdom by virtue of a global effect is not the same as changing the balance of a given kingdom by putting a card so strong for its price that you absolutely have to include it in your strategy.
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2014, 08:40:39 pm »
+1

With that in mind, if you're having strong "in games using this" effects, do you in fact want them to anti-synergize with their tops? For example,

Monastery Gardens
$4, Victory
Worth 1VP for every 7 cards in your deck (rounded down).
---
In games using this, when you trash a card, +1 Card.
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pacovf

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2014, 09:02:43 pm »
+1

I don't think either the top or the bottom of the card work very well. The top because it is strictly better than gardens, which matters when gardens is also in the kingdom because it makes them obsolete; the bottom because Awaclus has convinced me that it's too strong an effect while only affecting a small subset of all cards.

But setting that aside for a moment, I find your example of "antisynergy" quite elegant actually! You aren't really making the card any weaker with the "in games using this, ..." effect, you are actually making another incompatible strategy stronger so that it can compete with this. Or rather, your "in games using this, ..." effect changes the rules of the game in such a way that certain strategies become stronger, while the top of the card offers a strong alternative to those strategies.

So yeah, I don't think your precise example works, but if I understood it correctly, I quite like the idea behind it.
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2014, 10:18:35 pm »
0

Note that the only official card using the exact phrasing "In games using this, ..." is duchess, every other card discusse here actually reads "setup: ...". Interesting points to consider are embargo and trade route, since they add rules to the game that are in effect even if no example of those cards are currently visible (gaining curses, moving coin tokens around). So a cost-modifying effect would be alright for example, since by the time the pile runs out, most players should have internalized already that the cards' prices are different than usually. Same with Young Witch and the bane, you are expected to remember what card was the bane even though it's not written anywhere.

Trade Route's effect isn't equivalent to an "in games using this" effect, any more than City's is. (Baker is a better example of a "setup:" effect that's equivalent to "in games using this".)
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2014, 11:03:30 pm »
+1

I don't think either the top or the bottom of the card work very well. The top because it is strictly better than gardens, which matters when gardens is also in the kingdom because it makes them obsolete; the bottom because Awaclus has convinced me that it's too strong an effect while only affecting a small subset of all cards.

But setting that aside for a moment, I find your example of "antisynergy" quite elegant actually! You aren't really making the card any weaker with the "in games using this, ..." effect, you are actually making another incompatible strategy stronger so that it can compete with this. Or rather, your "in games using this, ..." effect changes the rules of the game in such a way that certain strategies become stronger, while the top of the card offers a strong alternative to those strategies.

So yeah, I don't think your precise example works, but if I understood it correctly, I quite like the idea behind it.
Yeah, that was the idea. Though I'm not quite sure how possible it is to balance any such card - what happens if the alternative strategy you're boosting isn't available? Essentially, you've got an OP top, without the balancing bottom, and going for the card is likely to be the correct strategy. Even if we ignore the "strictly better than Gardens when they're both there" problem, if there's no trashing in the kingdom then Monastery Gardens is just a super-powered version of an already good card.

I guess you could have the bottom be a detriment to the top, e.g.
Supply and Demand
$6 Victory
Worth 1VP for every 2 Gold in your deck
--
In games using this, Gold costs $8.

(again, demonstration of concept rather than attempt at balanced card!)

But detriments aren't as much fun as boosts.
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pacovf

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2014, 11:11:24 pm »
0

Trade Route's effect isn't equivalent to an "in games using this" effect, any more than City's is. (Baker is a better example of a "setup:" effect that's equivalent to "in games using this".)

I was responding more to concerns like:

Perhaps more importantly, I think these global effects should ideally involve the Kingdom card that they're on. So I'm not in love with either "When you trash a Province, gain a Duchy" or "Silver costs $1 less." Duchess's ability is especially elegant because if the Duchess pile gets bought out and the rule is no longer visible, it doesn't matter because the rule is moot at that point.

or

Baker works so well because the "in games using this" triggers exactly once at the start of the game. It makes a big impact, but it's not much extra to remember. I think having to remember something on a card a bunch of times throughout the game is probably not going to be ideal.

Trade route does add an "in games using this" effect, you add these tokens and move them around even if no one ever buys a trade route. Of course then those tokens are completely irrelevant, but that's besides the point. My point about trade route (which admittedly was probably lost in all that text) was that you have to remember what those tokens on top of the province (& co.) do when you buy one of those cards, even if trade route itself isn't visible any more because their pile was bought out. So there are precedents for having to track fiddly stuff, even if that stuff is not explicitly stated anywhere visible anymore (compare with the latest example, band of misfits, which rules it the other way).

Ironically, even though Duchess is the only card with the explicit text "In games using this, ...", I believe it is the card which less represents this kind of effect (of all the cards discussed here), since the spirit of the effect is just to describe that you can gain Duchess for free and the wording of such an effect happens to use those terms, unlike, say, peddler, which does pretty much the same thing. It's more of a price-altering effect than a game-changing effect.

Hopefully that was slightly less confusing, and sorry if I come across as excessively pedantic on the subject.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 11:14:47 pm by pacovf »
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2014, 11:16:35 pm »
+1

Governess
Cost: 5

+$3

Each player (including you) looks at the top 2 card of his deck, and chooses one: he either discards both cards, or puts both cards back in any order.

-----
In games using this, when you gain a Province, you may gain a Governess
« Last Edit: December 14, 2022, 02:53:26 pm by Gherald »
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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2014, 12:22:18 am »
+4

Governess
Cost: 5

+$3

Each player (including you) looks at the top 2 card of his deck, and chooses one: he either discards both cards, or puts both cards back in any order.

-----
In games using this, when you gain a Province, you may gain a Governess

Baroness
Cost: -$1
+$1
Each player (including you) looks at the top 0 cards of his deck, and chooses one: he does nothing, or he does nothing.
----
In games using this, when you gain an Estate, you may gain a Baroness.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: "In games using this" effects
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2014, 08:18:52 am »
+1

The "In games using this" effect should not plainly synergize with the top part of the text. The card might be interesting if there was no obvious synergy at all. Though some connection should exit, at least merely thematic.
The passive effect has to be balanced out with its active effect as well as with all other cards that might be affected by it. The cards strength must be compared to similar cards and be prized accurately.
If the passive effect would make other cards much stronger, such as "In games using this, whenever you trash a card, you may draw a card", it should also have some passive penalty or something to compensate for it. This is not an elegant solution. Besides, such a card should not have the ability to trash cards, or else we would encounter the issue discussed above.

The problem is, you can't really "penalize" an effect that is active "in games using this". So the effect should either be small (but still meaningful), e. g. "In games using this, at the start of each player's turn, he may look at the top card of his deck, discard it or put it back."
or
be beneficial, but triggered by usually disadvantageous events, e. g. "In games using this, when a player gains a Copper, he may trash X Coppers from his hand and gain a card costing exactly X."
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