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Author Topic: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar  (Read 2944 times)

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dominator 123

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Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« on: February 21, 2014, 08:20:46 am »
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Cards: Chapel, Cutpurse, Familiar, Festival, Ghost Ship, Philosopher's Stone, Remodel, Tactician, Wharf, WitchIn a four-player game, Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar were on the board. We all opened differently (slightly):

Chapel, Potion (me)
Chapel, Cutpurse
Silver, Potion
Silver, Cutpurse

I opened Chapel, as it was good for trashing, and Potion, to get a Familiar ASAP. However I lost in 4th place. Is Chapel/Potion the best opening here? Or did I play wrongly or get unlucky?

Which opening do you think is the best? (assuming 3/4 opening)
Log here:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130608/log.515222a4e4b083ccc5b0ecd6.1370747076380.txt
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soulnet

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2014, 08:30:19 am »
+3

With Witch and Chapel on the board, Familiar seems like a slow bet. I would open Chapel/Cutpurse and then try to get Festival and Wharf. Once you have Festival/Wharf going, you won't have trouble trashing incoming Curses, so I would only get Witch if the opponents won't be dealing with Curses effectively. If they are already Cursing each other, all the better. In case of terminal collision, prioritze Chapelling, because Curses snowball so its important to mantain a thin deck to keep up. There is also material for double-Tactitian, although I feel like Wharf already draws pretty well and is faster to set up and better to Attack while setting up. Get the Attack that the others do not get, so if everyone is Cursing, get Cutpurse and possibly Ghost Ship (if you manage to get enough Festivals). If nobody else is giving out Curses, get your own. You can even add Festival later if it seems appropiate, but at the beginning is more important to focus on trashing, Festivals (because they will run out) and Wharves (because they accelerate you a lot). Familiar may be a good option if there is little Cursing from opponents and you do not have enough Festivals to manage another terminal.
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ipofanes

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2014, 09:16:09 am »
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Remember that in a 4p game you, if you are the only non-curser, are left with 10 curses but everyone else gets 7, which is not too much of a deal. Of course, this approach is prone to groupthink. I'd have gone with Cutpurse/chapel too.

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SCSN

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2014, 09:18:45 am »
+1

What soulnet said, though I would open Chapel/Silver over Chapel/Cutpurse because there's only 1 pile of Villages and, more importantly, that Village doesn't draw and costs $5, thus competing directly with Wharf.

When villages are sparse, choose your terminals wisely: I'd want at least 2-3 Wharves before getting a Festival, and a Cutpurse in your deck makes that a lot harder to get away with. And with 2 of your opponents already having Cutpurses, I see little point in adding your own.
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DG

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2014, 10:55:31 am »
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This is a game where group think will dominate so there isn't one best strategy. Opening with a potion is probably weaker than cutpurse but if others do the same then you might get away with it. Group think can also push this into a fast 3 pile ending so heavy investment in engine cards may not get time to pay off.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 10:57:05 am by DG »
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meandering mercury

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2014, 11:22:34 am »
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Getting $3P for a familiar will be harder if other players pick up Cutpurse and attack you. And in general, with Witch around Familiar is not going to be as attractive because of opportunity cost (anytime you can get a Familiar, you could have gotten a Witch if you had bought silver instead of potion; plus there are plenty of times when you would like silly with $1P or something like that).

This is a very attack-heavy board and a lot depends on what everyone else is doing. I would have started Chapel/Silver and trashed down curses, estates and coppers, with the help of either a Wharf or a Tactician if necessary, and then picked up a Festival. Then when things are going well, I would have added in a Witch if there were many curses left. Of course, if everyone is playing defensively, the person who is attacking will end up with a lead ... and if everyone is building engines (as was already pointed out) the person who races to get VP may end up the big winner too.

Note that after curses run out and coppers are trashed, the engine player can still keep up the pressure with Ghost Ship.

You picked up a lot of PStones, which are not too helpful for your small-ish deck. You could have trashed the potion after picking up one or two familiars, trashed all the coppers, and started to get other cards like Festival and Ghost Ship instead.
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soulnet

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2014, 12:15:37 pm »
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When villages are sparse, choose your terminals wisely: I'd want at least 2-3 Wharves before getting a Festival, and a Cutpurse in your deck makes that a lot harder to get away with. And with 2 of your opponents already having Cutpurses, I see little point in adding your own.

Cutpurse attack stack, and delays trashing, but you may be right. If the opponents are opening Potion, OTOH, I would open Cutpurse to delay them on getting their own Festivals and Wharves.

I am not sure about the starting with Wharf. Adding Festival first adds money, allowing more aggressive trashing. I want to be able to trash all those Coppers, and still have money to but those $5s. While buying 3 Wharves you will either run out of cash or pass on trashing opportunities.
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Polk5440

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 03:24:00 pm »
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Cutpurse has to be the game here. I would definitely open with it. It stacks ontop of Ghost Ship and on other players' Cutpurses. Cutpurse also really hurts Familiar in multiplayer. You are so much more likely to miss $3P it can't possibly be worth going for, especially as 4th player.

SCSN is right about the importance of $5 and Festival, but I think you have to get a Cutpurse of your own to prevent others from hitting $5.

Like soulnet, I would watch what attacks others are going for. Wharf and Festival are obviously important.

No matter how you slice it, this is not a fun kingdom to be 4th player.

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luser

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2014, 08:25:04 am »
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I would say that a cutpurse/silver hopefully on turns 3/4 followed by chapel/tactician is best opening. Problem here is that with cutpurse copper is serious liability and you will not hit 5 very often. Chapel/tactician gives better chance to clean deck than a wharf does and gives certainty of 5 hand. Also when somebody goes ghost ship it hurts wharf more than tactician.

Then I would get festival, second cutpurse on 4 and second chapel asap to try get double tactician going, with chapel this should be fast so you could trash curses as they go. See following solo game.

http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140305/log.517000c9e4b082c74d7e6868.1394025397511.txt

I tried a similar board versus bots and and with wharf getting a working deck is considerably harder than tactican.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 04:22:40 pm by luser »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Best opening on board with Chapel, Cutpurse and Familiar
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2014, 01:07:45 pm »
+1

Chapel/Potion is almost always a bad opening. You have a card that destroys your Coppers, and nothing that produces coin income or gains cards. If you don't get a good first shuffle, you may never get to buy anything *ever*. It's even worse in a 4-player game with Cutpurse. You need a Silver or Cutpurse with your Chapel.
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