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[Matt_Arnold]

No, seriously. Let's try.

SerikosiaKunigund came up with this one. I tweaked it a bit.

River Ford
Cost: 3
Type Action-Victory
Trash a Treasure from your hand.
If you do, +2 Actions.
----------------------------------
Worth 1 VP for every $3 in the trash, rounded down.

[dondon151]

How do you count every $3 in the trash if you have a Bank in there?

[ChaosRed]

I think the card is interesting, but personally I disapprove of any interaction with the trash. I think you are better of creating a mat/area that a card (or cards) can interact with. I have this idea I want to try for a later fan-variant, that is sort of similar to this.

1 VP for every 3$ seems strong, Chapel and a +buy can go to town. But your testing will find whether I am right or not on that one, the concept itself is quite fun and interesting.

I would imagine a Bank is worth 0$, according to the rules, no point in sending it to the trash.

Good luck  with it!

[Octo]

Worth tons in 4P. Worth far far less in 2P.

[Jack Rudd]

It's still going to be powerful in 2P - it's a Village and a trasher, two useful categories of cards in their own right.

[plasticbrain]

... personally I disapprove of any interaction with the trash.

how did i guess you'd say that 

[Octo]

@Jack Rudd: indeed, yet still, as I said, far far less powerful than in 4P. In 4P it would just be an absolute must-buy. Would you agree?

[Jack Rudd]

@Jack Rudd: indeed, yet still, as I said, far far less powerful than in 4P. In 4P it would just be an absolute must-buy. Would you agree?

Pretty much. (So much so, in fact, that the game will probably start with "everyone buys three of this".)

[Loschmidt]

River Ford
Cost: 3
Type Action-Victory
Trash a Treasure from your hand.
If you do, +2 Actions.
----------------------------------
Worth 1 VP for every $3 in the trash, rounded down.

Do you mean per $3 of total cost of cards in the trash? Or per $3 of the total of treasure in the trash. I think the former is more interesting as it relies on trashing things other than copper and curses (which they want to do anyway).

Also it needs some tweaks; I think its way too powerful as it stands. For example if both players trash their starting estates thats $12 in the trash already which would make the card worth 4VP already (if you go on treasure it'll probably get even higher quite quickly). It only costs $3 and its a village, and a trasher. All of those are valuable things (I mean great hall is merely a self replacing estate and it only costs $3).

One possible problem with this card is that its the only variable VP victory that is the same for both you and your opponents. So basically it would be a rush to get a majority of them before increasing the value of the cards in the trash. For example if you got 3 and your opponent 5, you wouldn't add anything to the trash as it would just increase your opponents lead. Similarly if you split them 4-4 you wouldn't bother to trash things as it would just be neutral to the score.

My suggestion after thinking about this:

Junkyard

Cost: $0
4VP
-------
When you gain this you must trash exactly $6 worth of cards, if you don't trash this card

[ChaosRed]

I think he meant 3$ of treasure. You trash 3 Coppers, your River Ford is now worth 1VP. The thing is, getting to 9$ is really easy with Chapel. I think this card might be worth 4$, because getting it to the level of "Dutchy" is probably pretty easy with any kind of trash capability in the kingdom.

The concept is growing on me.

[Newcomer]

Here's my try for a Trash-interactive card:

Recycling Village
ACTION $3
---
+2 Actions
You may gain a card from the Trash and put it into your hand.
---
In games using this, when you gain a non-Victory card from the Supply, you may trash another copy of it from the Supply.

I don't love it by any means, but I was thinking that game condition would open up some doors. It gives you a way to get good cards into the trash, and consistently. But the more you do, the more is there for other players, so it's a gamble, or a chess match. Inspired a little by Duchess. Anybody else have ideas with such a condition?

[Newcomer]

Actually, Recycling Village could have a pretty big impact on games even when it sits as a "dead" pile, since it makes 3-piling so much easier. I'm seeing visions of: I will buy two Pawns, gaining 2 Pawns with Talisman, and trashing 4 Pawns from the Supply via Recycling Village being in the game...

[Octo]

@JackRudd - yeah that's what I was thinking - step 1 empty the River Ford. Step 2, continue with the game.

@Newcomer - Gaining from the trash is a problem (as mentioned in various threads) - eg 'Upgrade' a province into a platinum, then gain the province back. Except with this card you could gain the platinum that got trashed in the process instead or even as well. Or trash a 5 with Upgrade for 2 golds. And have spare actions still to go. Gaining into the hand is craziness too, making upgrade even stronger.

[Dubdubdubdub]

(long time reader, first time poster)

My friends and I recently tested the Phoenix. Can't really remember if I thought of this card myself, but I think I did:

Phoenix
ACTION $2 + potion
---
+1 Action
Gain any action card from the trash and put into your hand.
Trash an action card costing up to $5 from the supply.

This worked really well. Both the gaining and the trashing were mandatory. Obviously, multiple Phoenices combo'd nicely with eachother. This is a card you want to use exclusively, otherwise other players might gain the cards you trashed. That's why there's a potion in the cost. Another important benefit is, that Phoenix can't trash another Phoenix (otherwise, a hand with 2 Phoenices could drain the entire pile).
It was a little funny, but worked nicely once you had your Phoenix-engine up and there were 1 or more strong $5-cards.

Is Phoenices even the correct plural form?

Edit: description wasn't quite right.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Although, as I see it now, it looks a mightly lot like a slow University. Any ideas?

[Davio]

If you are going to mess with the trash, you have to realize that it's a shared resource pool, unlike the mats for NV, Pirate Ship and Island, but much more like the Trade Route mat.

What you don't want: Having to count cards in the trash pile during the game, or having different people count the same pile afterwards (because they don't trust each other or don't share the info). Also, for cards to interact with the trash, there needs to be something in the trash to begin with. This means that such a card must both be a trasher as well as a trash remover, but I think everyone got that idea.

You also have to be careful with shenanigans which allow very good trashed cards to be gained by the same player, possibly in the same turn.

This is why I think an Attack card can be nice here.

Rag and Bone Man - $5
Action - Attack

+$1
Choose one: Trash 2 cards from your hand; or every other player gains the top card from the Trash pile.
If the Trash pile is empty, they gain a Curse instead.


I found it difficult to make this very different from Ambassador. Ambassador lets you do both things at the same time: Get rid of your crap and pass it to others. This lets you do just one thing, but gives you a Coin to compensate. The Curse is an extra incentive and presents players with an interesting choice in the beginning: Trash your own crap or dish out Curses?

Be wary of reactions though:
- Watchtower lets a player move the gained card back (or the Curse to) the trash.
- Trader lets a player get a Silver instead, leaving the trash card on top for the next player (or Curse in the supply)

Giving it the right cost is always the hardest part. I think it's strictly better than Sea Hag, because trashed cards are generally just as bad as Curses and it gives players an option. That's why I settled on $5, up with Trading Post.

I have no real-world experience with designing cards, only theoretical, so this may be either worthless or overpowered, but it's just the thought of using the Trash as a source for attacks that I find interesting.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Rag and Bone Man - $5
Action - Attack

+$1
Choose one: Trash 2 cards from your hand; or every other player gains the top card from the Trash pile.
If the Trash pile is empty, they gain a Curse instead.

Nice idea, but I don't think it's worth 5. Compare it to Witch: +2 Cards is much better than +$1, and instead of dealing Curses, you're dealing trashed cards (which might be Curses). Naturally, it's nice to have a trashing option, but it's not for benefit. As seen in several other cases: a choice of inferior actions doesn't make a superior card. I'd say it's fine at $4.
Besides, there's something Rinkworks pointed out at several occasions: making the players care about the order in which to discard (or trash, in this case) slows the game down significantly. Is this card worth that?

[Davio]

I had it at $4 first, but changed it to $5 later, these things are so hard to judge.

We could make it so each player can just pick something from the entire Trash pile, but this may slow the game down too. I'd rather leave it the way it is. As long as it's not worse than Philosopher's Stone, then I think it's okay. The only way you could actively target players is if you would play multiple copies of this in one turn and I don't think it's a very good strategy to buy multiples of this.

Then again, you may trash a Curse and the next player plays the same card, making you grab your own Curse again.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Right, letting the victims choose their card doesn't fix the problem and makes the card quite a bit weaker. How about shuffling the trash pile every time before you deal the cards out? And do they get the cards directly from the trash (starting at your left hand), or do they gain copies from the supply?
Maybe you could even scratch the "If the Trash pile is empty, they gain a Curse instead." and drop the price to $3.

Any ideas on Phoenix? I believe it's quite a good option for a trash-interaction without ruining the game.

[Matt_Arnold]

Do you mean per $3 of total cost of cards in the trash? Or per $3 of the total of treasure in the trash. I think the former is more interesting as it relies on trashing things other than copper and curses (which they want to do anyway).

Also it needs some tweaks; I think its way too powerful as it stands. For example if both players trash their starting estates thats $12 in the trash already

Nope, I meant what I said. Estates don't count. It's worth money based on how much money is in the trash. Treasures with ? in the corner count as zero.

One possible problem with this card is that its the only variable VP victory that is the same for both you and your opponents. So basically it would be a rush to get a majority of them before increasing the value of the cards in the trash. For example if you got 3 and your opponent 5, you wouldn't add anything to the trash as it would just increase your opponents lead. Similarly if you split them 4-4 you wouldn't bother to trash things as it would just be neutral to the score.

I'll bet you would. Its playable benefit is useful. So in the case that the players tie in their race to the River Fords, that's what the card is for, not points.

[Michaelf7777777]

Another idea for a card that interacts with the trash.

Gongfarmer

Action
Cost: 4
+1 Card
+1 Action
If there are no cards in the trash, +1VP
You may gain a card from the trash putting it in your hand

Additional Setup Rule: When Gongfarmer is in the kingdom, choose an 11th kingdom card which may trashcards in some way either from the players own deck or from their opponents.

[Saucery]

A borderline idea would be a Reaction Card which activates when somebody trashes something. Otherwise, there could be something like this:

Mulching Machine - Action-Victory - $4
Trash up to two cards from your hand. Then count the number of cards in the trash pile. If it is:
- Even, +2 cards +1 action.
- Odd, this card with worth 2VP.

Or any other pair of even/odd conditions which work well