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Author Topic: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card  (Read 19662 times)

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Davio

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2014, 07:00:36 am »
0

Adventurer's discarding is a wash, it can also discard Curses and VP cards.
Transmute's main problem is that it appears without other Potion-costing cards - the Alchemy rules advise you to use 3-5 Potion cards.
Harvest at $3 would be way too good, even at $4 it could be somewhat strong, it's just not that flashy.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2014, 07:27:49 am »
0

In the defense of Scout: on CouncilRoom.com, Thief, Counting House, Transmute, Coppersmith, Bureaucrat, Pirate Ship, Saboteur, Chancellor, Contraband, Philosopher's Stone, Talisman, Workshop, Mandarin, Noble Brigand, Secret Chamber and Cache all have worse Win Rate Withs than Scout. On the other hand, Curse still has a higher Win Rate With than Scout, so...
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RTT

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2014, 08:36:02 am »
0

In the defense of Scout: on CouncilRoom.com, Thief, Counting House, Transmute, Coppersmith, Bureaucrat, Pirate Ship, Saboteur, Chancellor, Contraband, Philosopher's Stone, Talisman, Workshop, Mandarin, Noble Brigand, Secret Chamber and Cache all have worse Win Rate Withs than Scout. On the other hand, Curse still has a higher Win Rate With than Scout, so...

curse doesnt really count.... you know there are those slogs with witch or seahag and simply no trasher around. both players have 4-6 curses in their decks. one of them still has to win so its 100% that on such boards the winner has a curs in his deck.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 08:37:05 am by RTT »
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2014, 08:44:02 am »
0

In the defense of Scout: on CouncilRoom.com, Thief, Counting House, Transmute, Coppersmith, Bureaucrat, Pirate Ship, Saboteur, Chancellor, Contraband, Philosopher's Stone, Talisman, Workshop, Mandarin, Noble Brigand, Secret Chamber and Cache all have worse Win Rate Withs than Scout. On the other hand, Curse still has a higher Win Rate With than Scout, so...

curse doesnt really count.... you know there are those slogs with witch or seahag and simply no trasher around. both players have 4-6 curses in their decks. one of them still has to win so its 100% that on such boards the winner has a curs in his deck.

Doesn't it only count when gained on your turn? The reason that Curse is higher than you might expect is because if you're buying a Curse to Ambassador to your opponent, empty piles etc, chances are you're in a good position already.
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2014, 08:48:19 am »
0

Guys, really, I'm really a person. I just haven't played Goko online, only done the adventures. I am, by the way, indeed DominionGuy.
It turns out, I've been wrong about a lot of things. I've come to like Adventurer. I've come to like Moneylender.
But my Scout opinion has not changed. Come on, let's make Scout the second worst card in Dominion!
Majority opinion is not absolute. Scout might not be the worst (kingdom?) card in Dominion.  It depends what you mean by worst. The issue with Scout is that it doesn't have much potential to be useful. However, there are other cards that have potential to be good, but are detrimental to your deck 95% of the time. Like, Scout is way better than Contraband if I have lots of Ventures.
To make it the second worse card in the game i think you try and compare it adventurer, transmute or harvest
Adventurer is bad because it can hurt your next turn. (Discarding Actions.)
Transmute is only good if you turn up a Victory, otherwise it clouds up your deck.
And Harvest is okay, it just needs to be worth $3.

Harvest can also discard action cards, but hopefully it discards Curses and other weak cards. It would be great if it cost $3, but it doesn't. It costs $5. So many awesome cards cost $5. Harvest really wants to be played with Throne Room and similar cards like that.

Edit: It's too bad, because I like Harvest and Scout as ideas. And Harvest is alright when it generates $4.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 08:50:30 am by markusin »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2014, 09:10:32 am »
+2

I assume Nik meant that Harvest needs to generate $3 to be good, not to cost $3. Perhaps I misread.

Donald claims that Saboteur is the weakest card in Dominion relative to its cost. I guess this might be true, but it's still occasionally very useful. Scout costs significantly less, but is almost never useful.

Adventurer should topdeck a revealed Action card.
Harvest should topdeck one of the revealed cards.
Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.
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Davio

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2014, 09:32:59 am »
+1

I think we can agree that designing cards is just very, very hard.

There are also many different tastes.

Some players might like bland helper cards which are useful on 90% on boards, while others might feel cheated that those cards provide nothing special.
And some players might like cards which are useless often, but shine on 10% of the boards.

I think I'm somewhere in between. It's fun to find uses for "useless" cards and it's fun to have some go-to cards.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2014, 09:37:52 am »
+1

Scout is not the worst card in Dominion... the worst card is Curse. Id rather like to get a scout ambassadored then a curse.

I can't tell if that's a typo or not.  Maybe it's a typo, and you meant to say that you'd rather be sent a Scout than a Curse.  Or maybe you're trying to say that a free Scout is good, so rather than just a Curse, you'd prefer to receive a Scout then a Curse.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2014, 09:44:07 am »
0

Scout is not the worst card in Dominion... the worst card is Curse. Id rather like to get a scout ambassadored then a curse.

I can't tell if that's a typo or not.  Maybe it's a typo, and you meant to say that you'd rather be sent a Scout than a Curse.  Or maybe you're trying to say that a free Scout is good, so rather than just a Curse, you'd prefer to receive a Scout then a Curse.

the first obviously ;) and those mistakes are quite easy to make if your not a native english speaker(writer)
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2014, 09:46:07 am »
0

Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.

The problem here is that each other Alchemy card plays very well without this rule...
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2014, 09:53:37 am »
+1

Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.

The problem here is that each other Alchemy card plays very well without this rule...

Very well, or just acceptably? When was the last time you played a game against another human with 5 Alchemy cards? It's a whole different ball game.

Also, Philosopher's Stone.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 09:57:11 am by LastFootnote »
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2014, 10:04:16 am »
0

I assume Nik meant that Harvest needs to generate $3 to be good, not to cost $3. Perhaps I misread.

Donald claims that Saboteur is the weakest card in Dominion relative to its cost. I guess this might be true, but it's still occasionally very useful. Scout costs significantly less, but is almost never useful.

Adventurer should topdeck a revealed Action card.
Harvest should topdeck one of the revealed cards.
Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.
No, I'm pretty sure I'm the one who misread. He said "worth" 3.

Saboteur is strange. I recently played a 3 player Base-Intrigue game IRL that featured both Saboteur and Thief. No one's deck got anywhere in the end. When it became apparent that any Provinces bought would just get trashed by Sab, we just agreed to stop playing. I concluded that, in that game, Saboteur and Thief at best made the game a stalemate. they didn't actually increase anyone's odds of winning.

I agree with LastFootnote on Transmute being fine with other potion cards on the board. I usually play full random though.
If you play the Alchemy adventures, you'll eventually experience the joy of having 10 or so Alchemy cards on the board.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2014, 10:40:26 am »
+1

I think we can agree that designing cards is just very, very hard.

Amen to that.

Some players might like bland helper cards which are useful on 90% on boards, while others might feel cheated that those cards provide nothing special.
And some players might like cards which are useless often, but shine on 10% of the boards.

I think I'm somewhere in between. It's fun to find uses for "useless" cards and it's fun to have some go-to cards.

Although niche cards tend to be my favorites, cards that are universally useful and spammable are definitely important. Even if a card is a no-brainer pickup at $3 or $4 and piles out extremely frequently (like Fishing Village, Caravan, Ironmonger, etc. often do), they still make the game much more interesting than picking up Silver with those buys. They inform your strategy. Caravan is on the board, so I prefer cards that benefit from a large handsize. Ironmonger is on the board, so I'll pick up Mystics and Great Halls. Fishing Village is on the board, so I can go crazy with terminal Actions.

I believe this is why Donald said he tries to have 6 or 7 cantrips in a 25-card set these days. Without them, you're buying Treasure or nothing with a lot of your buys, especially in the absence of villages.

Back to the topic at hand, the problem with Scout is that it's a niche card that's still not good even at its best. Some cards (like Counting House) are usually a bad investment, but are sometimes awesome. Scout is usually terrible and sometimes mediocre.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2014, 10:59:24 am »
+6

Aaaaand, the BGG blog post has been taken down. Way to go, guys. You ridiculed him into submission.

Nik, I apologize for linking to your BGG post. I was not trying to say, "Look at this noob! Let's make fun of him." Although I'm hard pressed to remember why I did link it. I think I just had an "Aha!" moment when I realized you were the same guy and wanted to share. So again, apologies. I'm sorry you felt the need to retract your post. I personally always find the insights of new players interesting.

I would also like to thank you for starting this thread. Independent of your opinions about Scout, the fact is that without threads like these, there would be less talk about actual Dominion on this board these days. So without any sarcasm, thank you.
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GeoLib

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2014, 11:19:19 am »
+3

I would also like to apologize for accusing you of not being a real person. "Hey guys! Scout is awesome!!" is a pretty common joke on this forum, and when a log search didn't turn up any games I assumed your post was from someone's alt account.

We were all new once. Before I discovered f.ds, I was convinced that village was OP at $3 and that chapel was only useful as a late-game buy to trash curses from witch.

Please continue posting on this forum and playing on Goko. I also suggest checking out the articles section of the forum.

I suspect that with more experience you'll change your opinion on scout, but thank you for posting here.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2014, 11:21:34 am »
0

I would also like to thank you for starting this thread. Independent of your opinions about Scout, the fact is that without threads like these, there would be less talk about actual Dominion on this board these days. So without any sarcasm, thank you.

qft
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2014, 11:27:53 am »
+6

No, it's not you guys' fault. That post hasn't only haunted haunted me on here, and I've realized that I've been wrong about a few things. Don't worry, I'll do it again.  :D
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2014, 11:28:38 am »
+3

Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.

The problem here is that each other Alchemy card plays very well without this rule...

Very well, or just acceptably? When was the last time you played a game against another human with 5 Alchemy cards? It's a whole different ball game.

Also, Philosopher's Stone.

Very well. Except maybe Golem, but they can't all be the best $4P card ever.
They all are used frequently, and it's a decision to go for the Potion and not a "I need the Potion anyway because I buy cards".

Philosopher's Stone doesn't fit well to the other Potion cards anyway, I think its best played sloggy, while every other Potion card screams engine.  I don't think having more Potion cards in the kingdom increases its strength on average.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2014, 11:35:12 am »
0

Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.

The problem here is that each other Alchemy card plays very well without this rule...

Very well, or just acceptably? When was the last time you played a game against another human with 5 Alchemy cards? It's a whole different ball game.

Also, Philosopher's Stone.

Very well. Except maybe Golem, but they can't all be the best $4P card ever.
They all are used frequently, and it's a decision to go for the Potion and not a "I need the Potion anyway because I buy cards".

What you're missing here is that the decision "Do I go for a Potion?" is replaced by "How many Potions do I want?" The answer can sometimes be zero, even in such games, but it's also sometimes 2 or more.

Philosopher's Stone doesn't fit well to the other Potion cards anyway, I think its best played sloggy, while every other Potion card screams engine.  I don't think having more Potion cards in the kingdom increases its strength on average.

Ah, but you didn't answer my question. Have you actually played such games, or are you just theorizing? In my experience, the fact that you already have a Potion to buy the Philosopher's Stone tends to outweigh the fact that many of the Potion cards are engine-y. If you're building a Scrying Pool or Alchemist deck, then yeah, you probably don't want Philosopher's Stone. Barring those two, it's often a good purchase.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 11:36:45 am by LastFootnote »
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DStu

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2014, 11:50:33 am »
0

Transmute is fine. People just need to play games with more than one Alchemy card at a time.

The problem here is that each other Alchemy card plays very well without this rule...

Very well, or just acceptably? When was the last time you played a game against another human with 5 Alchemy cards? It's a whole different ball game.

Also, Philosopher's Stone.

Very well. Except maybe Golem, but they can't all be the best $4P card ever.
They all are used frequently, and it's a decision to go for the Potion and not a "I need the Potion anyway because I buy cards".

What you're missing here is that the decision "Do I go for a Potion?" is replaced by "How many Potions do I want?" The answer can sometimes be zero, even in such games, but it's also sometimes 2 or more.

Philosopher's Stone doesn't fit well to the other Potion cards anyway, I think its best played sloggy, while every other Potion card screams engine.  I don't think having more Potion cards in the kingdom increases its strength on average.

Ah, but you didn't answer my question. Have you actually played such games, or are you just theorizing? In my experience, the fact that you already have a Potion to buy the Philosopher's Stone tends to outweigh the fact that many of the Potion cards are engine-y. If you're building a Scrying Pool or Alchemist deck, then yeah, you probably don't want Philosopher's Stone. Barring those two, it's often a good purchase.

I have played lots of 3++ Potion card games back when iso enforced the rule.  But that's a long time ago. For me, Alchemy was often too dominiating at these board, exactly because most of the cards get enough attention already when they are alone.

I can see that these games can also be fun and interesting, I think it comes most down to the fact that the rule is unneccessary (as these cards are not dead without it), and excludes interesting kingdoms, so for simplicity reasons I like it better without it.

Edit: Or better said, I don't like it as a default, of course you can get interesting (and non-standard type of) games by enforcing rules on the kingdom composition.  And I might agree that this one is one to try out.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 11:53:26 am by DStu »
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2014, 11:51:33 am »
0

Very well. Except maybe Golem, but they can't all be the best $4P card ever.
I see what you did there!
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2014, 12:14:12 pm »
0

I have played lots of 3++ Potion card games back when iso enforced the rule.  But that's a long time ago. For me, Alchemy was often too dominiating at these board, exactly because most of the cards get enough attention already when they are alone.

I can see that these games can also be fun and interesting, I think it comes most down to the fact that the rule is unneccessary (as these cards are not dead without it), and excludes interesting kingdoms, so for simplicity reasons I like it better without it.

Edit: Or better said, I don't like it as a default, of course you can get interesting (and non-standard type of) games by enforcing rules on the kingdom composition.  And I might agree that this one is one to try out.

As far as simplicity goes, I play all my Unrated and Casual games (the bulk of my games in other words) with 5 cards each from two sets. So the Alchemy "suggestion" gets enforced automatically without the need for a special rule.

Philosopher's Stone combos quite well with a good number of Alchemy cards and doesn't nombo with most others. Herbalist/Philosopher's Stone is a well-documented combo. Philosopher's Stone is a crucial card on Familiar boards without good Curse trashing. University gains cards. Sometimes these cards have big card draw, but sometimes they don't. When they don't, Philosopher's Stone is a great pickup. Apothecary and Philosopher's Stone don't combo per se, but they both like having a deck full of Copper and when they collide it's not the end of the world. Fighting Possession sometimes makes you want a slog-type deck where Philosopher's Stone shines. Vineyards decks are sometimes just a mess of cheap Actions like Herbalists, which P.Stone likes fine. Golem and Transmute are pretty neutral. So, yeah. It's pretty much Alchemist, Apprentice, and Scrying Pool that don't like P.Stone. Which isn't ideal, but it's far from the catastrophe people make it out to be.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2014, 12:18:35 pm »
0

Scout is not the worst card in Dominion... the worst card is Curse. Id rather like to get a scout ambassadored then a curse.

I can't tell if that's a typo or not.  Maybe it's a typo, and you meant to say that you'd rather be sent a Scout than a Curse.  Or maybe you're trying to say that a free Scout is good, so rather than just a Curse, you'd prefer to receive a Scout then a Curse.

the first obviously ;) and those mistakes are quite easy to make if your not a native english speaker(writer)

you're* ;)
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2014, 12:24:29 pm »
0

Let me put this another way. Treasures are not among the most powerful cards, but it's not hard to build a deck where Philosopher's Stones are worth $6 or $7. That's a lot. The problem is that without other Potion-cost cards, it's a three-step process to get the benefit of them, and you don't want to start the process early because P.Stone is bad early on. Buy the Potion. Next shuffle, buy the P.Stone. Next shuffle, play it. In the kind of deck where P.Stone shines, each shuffle can take a long time. Too long.

It's sort of like Thief. It's not a good early buy because you'll mostly be hitting Copper and it doesn't help you reach $5. It hurts. But once you do buy it, it's three steps to see the Treasure you stole. Buy the Thief. Next shuffle, play the Thief and steal Treasure. Next shuffle, play the Treasure. Too slow. Noble Brigand is better. It attacks immediately upon purchase, cutting a whole shuffle out of the equation.

In a game with other Potion cards you want, P.Stone is only a two-step proposition, like most cards. You spend your early Potion buys on other stuff. It's mid-game. You buy the P.Stone. Next shuffle, you play it. Profit.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 12:25:42 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2014, 12:38:59 pm »
+2

Fighting Possession sometimes makes you want a slog-type deck where Philosopher's Stone shines.

A good Possession deck plays Possession at a rate > 1 Possession/Turn.  Therefore, your PS is more likely to be played by your opponent.  Yes you normally want a slog deck, but you would rather get your good green before the Possessions kick in and then have a deck that is incapable of generating good hands.  With PS in deck you will have a good hand every once in a while making Possession be a very viable threat still.
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