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Author Topic: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card  (Read 19659 times)

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Nik

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Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« on: February 18, 2014, 08:27:40 pm »
+3

When I say 'Scout' you already are thinking 'The Worst Card In Dominion? Yeah." And then you joke about for a while, mainly by saying that Scout is the best card in Dominion (sarcastically). Well, I'm here to tell you you're all wrong. Scout is, in fact, a very powerful card. Why?

1.Looking to your next turn.
You don't want Provinces in your hand, however many points they're worth. Now, sure, with the Scout, you do put those Victories in your hand, but they don't count against you on our next turn.
2. It interacts amazingly with +card cards.
Take this situation. You have this hand: Gold, Scout, Silver, Village, Duchy. In this instance, I'd first play the Scout. I look at the top 4 cards of my deck. Let's say they are: Duchy,Duchy,Remodel, Gold.
First, I get to discard two annoying Duchies that would otherwise cloud up my next hand. Now also, Scout has a clause on it: 'you may put the rest of the cards back in any order.' This is great! So I'll, of course, put the Gold on top. I'll then play the Village. Now I have two Golds and a Silver, which means I can buy a Province!

Interacts well with:
+card cards, heavy Victory decks, Big Money, Intrigue
Interacts badly with:
Non-Victory decks, non-+cards kingdoms, curses


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!

« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:36:40 pm by Nik »
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Robz888

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 08:37:39 pm »
+28

Before you ask, no, this is not my alt-account.
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Nik

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 08:40:42 pm »
0

Before you ask, no, this is not my alt-account.
Why would anyone think it would be?
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Robz888

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 08:41:21 pm »
+2

Because I'm known for making joke posts about Scout. This sounds like that.
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Nik

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 08:47:43 pm »
0

Because I'm known for making joke posts about Scout. This sounds like that.
No, really, I'm serious. Scout is a pretty good card.
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pg

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 09:03:24 pm »
0


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.
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manthos88

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 09:08:52 pm »
+1

Quote
No, really, I'm serious. Scout is a pretty good card.


I agree with you man. A lot of people here underestimate the fact that Scout actually "scouts" your next few cards, which can be very helpful sometimes. It's not very strong $4, but it's decent.

Now, if this is supposed to be an article about Scout, you should probably mention some more interactions that Scout has with other cards. For example, Scout is pretty good with double-type Victory cards, especially Nobles in engines, it definitely pairs nicely with Mystic and Wishing Well, or even Journeyman and maybe other cards that "name" before they draw, and it works well with cards that want big hand-size, like Vault. It also makes great synergy with Crossroads. And there are definitely more examples you can give.
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Robz888

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 09:11:44 pm »
+11

Scout/Crossroads is a famous nombo. Scout is just as likely to pull green cars out of a future Crossroads hands than it is to pair green cards with Crossroads, and basically any point at which you could have bought Scout, you would actually just be better off buying another Crossroads.
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 09:16:18 pm »
+2

Take this situation. You have this hand: Gold, Scout, Silver, Village, Duchy. In this instance, I'd first play the Scout. I look at the top 4 cards of my deck. Let's say they are: Duchy,Duchy,Remodel, Gold.
First, I get to discard two annoying Duchies that would otherwise cloud up my next hand. Now also, Scout has a clause on it: 'you may put the rest of the cards back in any order.' This is great! So I'll, of course, put the Gold on top. I'll then play the Village. Now I have two Golds and a Silver, which means I can buy a Province!
Err, that's VERY hypothetical. Imagine instead, you have an extra Village instead of Scout and the top of the deck was: Remodel, Gold, Duchy, Duchy. I play both Villages, draw both the Remodel and the Gold, Remodel the Gold into a Province, and buy a Duchy.

My example is a very poor argument as to why Scout is bad. In fact, it's a rather meaningless example, because of how engineered it was. Of course Scout is pretty amazing if it happens to draw 4 Nobles every time you play it.

What we really need in order to judge the strength of a card is to know how much it will give you on average compared to every other option available, including Silver. People have attempted to answer that with simulators. The results have been very dim for Scout. Like, Scout/Ironworks/Great Hall and Scrying Pool/Scout decks are notable, but pretty much everything else with Scout is worse than the strategies that replace Scout gains with other cards. Even alt-VP decks don't usually have time to pick up a Scout over the Alt-VP card itself.

The issue with Scout is it takes up a slot in your hand that could have been something other than a VP card for a very hit-or-miss (which relies on you having a deck full of VP cards no less). People generally don't like having no predictive power over their card effects. Tribute has the potential to give great benefit, yet it's not held in high regard on this forum. Neither is Loan and Lookout. In fact, Lookout is very somewhat similar to Scout, but does way more for you for most of the game (and only costs $3 on top of that).

Personally, I see Scout as "not being the worst card you have received via an opponent's Swindler".
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:17:45 pm by markusin »
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KingZog3

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2014, 09:16:23 pm »
0

Because I'm known for making joke posts about Scout. This sounds like that.
No, really, I'm serious. Scout is a pretty good card.

Pretty good? What if it finds nothing? Then it lowers your hand size by 1 and lets you see the net 4 cards. If you can't do anything with that knowledge then Scout was essentially useless.

It's not that Scout is bad, it's that other things are better. Silver will let you buy things, Scout won't. It's important to consider what your hand would be like with a different card, and usually Scout is less helpful than all other options.
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manthos88

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2014, 09:18:02 pm »
+1


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.


Why does there have to be a *worst card*??? Scout is useful in more instances than most of you guys think of. I 've seen a lot of players ignore Scout just because it's "bad". On an engine board with no other filterer than Scout, why would i not want to buy one?
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Robz888

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2014, 09:19:35 pm »
+8


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.


Why does there have to be a *worst card*??? Scout is useful in more instances than most of you guys think of. I 've seen a lot of players ignore Scout just because it's "bad". On an engine board with no other filterer than Scout, why would i not want to buy one?

Because there are two cards that you can always buy instead, and would usually prefer:

1) Silver
2) Nothing
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Nik

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2014, 09:22:41 pm »
0


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.
For me, it's a tie between Workshop and Duchess. On one hand, you don't want Workshops because there's only a need at the start of the game to get 4s; but then again, you don't want a billion Duchesses clouding up your deck.
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manthos88

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2014, 09:23:14 pm »
0

Scout/Crossroads is a famous nombo. Scout is just as likely to pull green cars out of a future Crossroads hands than it is to pair green cards with Crossroads, and basically any point at which you could have bought Scout, you would actually just be better off buying another Crossroads.


That is not always true. I mean, you won't just buy Scouts and Crossroads. This is something that probably won't work. But on a trimmed deck, Scout can easily net 2-3 Victory cards for your more-than-1 Crossroads to feed on.
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2014, 09:23:51 pm »
+3


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.


Why does there have to be a *worst card*??? Scout is useful in more instances than most of you guys think of. I 've seen a lot of players ignore Scout just because it's "bad". On an engine board with no other filterer than Scout, why would i not want to buy one?
I think that we, as a whole, HAVE though of the instances where Scout could is good. We've tried really hard to find situations where Scout is good, and justification for why it isn't the worst card. But then, we're disappointed because Scout is still terrible in the instances it was supposed to be good in.

I remember reading that Scout/Nobles beats Big-Money-Ultimate, but loses to pure Nobles. Is that right?

Well anyway, it seems like it's better to have an extra copy of the hybrid VP card you want Scout to pick up than to have the Scout. Even Silver helps you do that, but not before it helps you throughout the entire game in a way Scout can only dream of doing.
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manthos88

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2014, 09:25:40 pm »
0


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.


Why does there have to be a *worst card*??? Scout is useful in more instances than most of you guys think of. I 've seen a lot of players ignore Scout just because it's "bad". On an engine board with no other filterer than Scout, why would i not want to buy one?

Because there are two cards that you can always buy instead, and would usually prefer:

1) Silver
2) Nothing

I would. Why would i want to buy a card that can't draw more cards if i don't need it? Silver clogs me up. Scout has good chances to help me.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:27:02 pm by manthos88 »
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2014, 09:28:27 pm »
0


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.


Why does there have to be a *worst card*??? Scout is useful in more instances than most of you guys think of. I 've seen a lot of players ignore Scout just because it's "bad". On an engine board with no other filterer than Scout, why would i not want to buy one?

Because there are two cards that you can always buy instead, and would usually prefer:

1) Silver
2) Nothing

I would. Why would i want to buy a card that can't draw more cards if i don't need it. Silver clogs me up. Scout has good chances to help me.
...By drawing VP cards? If anything, that helps you next turn. There might not be a next turn. You know what else clogs your deck. VP CARDS, the same ones you want Scout to pick up.

I really didn't want to vote "no, it's terrible", but seeing as how I ranked it last for the Dominion card list I had no choice. Apparently, I really do think it's the worst card.
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2014, 09:37:36 pm »
+7

It's really helpful to realize that, in order for Scout to draw at least 1 card on average, you need to have 25% of your deck be VP cards. You start the game with only 30% VP of your deck as VP cards. Add just 3 non-VP cards to it and you're below 25%. In your typical game, once you reach 25% VP cards again, it'll be so late in the game that you'll probably want to gain Estate over Scout.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2014, 09:39:26 pm »
+1

Guys, this has to be a joke. First time poster claiming Scout is the best. Goko account with no logged games ever.
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manthos88

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2014, 09:40:29 pm »
0

Quote
I remember reading that Scout/Nobles beats Big-Money-Ultimate, but loses to pure Nobles. Is that right?


Why would someone go for Scout/Nobles? This doesn't make sense. Simulators don't really help here. I'm talking about picking up Scout as a filterer in an engine.


Quote
Well anyway, it seems like it's better to have an extra copy of the hybrid VP card you want Scout to pick up than to have the Scout. Even Silver helps you do that, but not before it helps you throughout the entire game in a way Scout can only dream of doing.


This is not true on a trimmed Deck. I don't know what you guys say, but i definetely feel good when Scout picks up 2-3 Victory cards for me. And Silver is, of course, better than Scout early game. But late game it's different.
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2014, 09:42:02 pm »
+1


In conclusion, I won't say it's the best $4 card, but it is a pretty powerful one. Join the fight to make Scout NOT The Worst Card Ever!


What *is* the worst card in your opinion? There has to be one. Scout rarely shines.  In your example I'd most likely rather have had a silver at any point before that turn.
For me, it's a tie between Workshop and Duchess. On one hand, you don't want Workshops because there's only a need at the start of the game to get 4s; but then again, you don't want a billion Duchesses clouding up your deck.
Well, Duchess is pretty terrible most of the time. Unless you're going for some sort of Slog (or Rebuild), you'll most probably not want the Duchess with the Duchy.

Workshop? Meh, depends on the board. It's gotten better as more expansions have come out, which encourage action-heavy decks even more. But it seems you even want one in the "First game" setup. Then again, if nothing on the board gives +actions and there's no Gardens/Silk Road, it's probably terrible there.
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markusin

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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2014, 09:49:33 pm »
+1

Quote
Well anyway, it seems like it's better to have an extra copy of the hybrid VP card you want Scout to pick up than to have the Scout. Even Silver helps you do that, but not before it helps you throughout the entire game in a way Scout can only dream of doing.


This is not true on a trimmed Deck. I don't know what you guys say, but i definetely feel good when Scout picks up 2-3 Victory cards for me. And Silver is, of course, better than Scout early game. But late game it's different.
Why does a trimmed deck need Scout? It's trimmed and presumable engine-y enough pick up those 2-3 VP cards without Scout, right? Unless it's not trimmed after all and actually averages to like 20% of the deck in the hand a turn.

Again, Scout would be great if it was guaranteed to draw at least 2 VP cards in a deck that isn't already 90% VP cards already. But it's not guaranteed to do that. Not at all. Scout is the kind of card that, if you gain a couple, can very well make you lose a game you had a lead in and would have otherwise won.

I don't know why I'm being so harsh on Scout today. This is the first time I've actively bashed it. Really.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:51:17 pm by markusin »
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2014, 10:10:16 pm »
0

Scout:

When you have no victory cards: Aw man, why are my hands all filled up with useless Scouts?

When you have a few victory cards: Aw man, why are my hands all filled up with useless Scouts and green?

When you have a lot of victory cards: Well, note that Scout is generally not better than a victory card in your hand unless it draws two green (I am excepting alt-vp and ordering importance right now). That means you need to have at least a third of you cards be victory cards. This doesn't really happen unless the game is about to end. In which case why are you buying Scout instead of green cards.
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Re: Scout Strategy Article, or, It's Not a Bad Card
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2014, 10:11:05 pm »
+2

On one hand, you don't want Workshops because there's only a need at the start of the game to get 4s;

This dubious claim made me realize you were this guy: http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/27685/ranking-the-dominion-cards-by-mechanics-part-i-the

Scout isn't worthless, but the problem is you have to buy or otherwise gain it and almost anything else would be better. Scout is underpowered. I maintain that if it gave +$1, it would probably be a decent $4 card. Not great, but not terrible like it currently is.
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