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minovsky

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newbie question on mandarin
« on: February 17, 2014, 10:35:36 pm »
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Hi I was first introduced to Dominion two weeks ago and I am totally addicted to it now. I am still very bad and keep losing to even the serf bot (I couldn't get anyone to play with me outside weekends...) and stumbled upon the wiki as I was searching for tips...

I was just looking at the mandarin card on the wiki which says "It's often tempting to look at the strange potential openings you can create with Mandarin. However, a 5/5/2 opening is often weaker than it seems at first. This is because it's not much different than opening 5/2 and then shuffling your gained cards right away to be played a turn sooner - consider that your opponent might get a 3/4/6 opening, if we're counting the third turn."

Can someone please elaborate on why 5/5/2 is "not much different than" 5/2? It might be a really silly question but again I am completely new and I have never been a good card/board game player...

thx much in advance!!

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jsh357

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 10:52:55 pm »
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In short: The more treasure it returns to the top of the deck, the more Mandarin slows you down.

Think of it like this:
If you return your Copper to the deck and purchase a Mandarin, you increase the number of turns between buying the Mandarin/other good $5 card and playing it.  Meanwhile, if your opponent also opens 5/2 but gets a good $5 card (let's say Witch) he can potentially play it on turn 3.  This is probably bad for you, since he's reaping the benefit of playing the Witch earlier.  It slows down your momentum, pretty much. 

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare.  Usually, the on buy effect of Mandarin is better late in the game when you want another shot at buying Province with your Gold or something.

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Jean-Michel

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 01:48:34 am »
+1

Also, the main function of Mandarin is quite weak to be worth $5. I'd say it's something like ~$4 instead. So you could think of Mandarin openings as 4/5/2 instead of 5/5/2.
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Awaclus

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 04:12:33 am »
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Because Copper isn't a very good card and you don't usually want to buy a Mandarin when most of your Treasures in play are Coppers. jsh357 and Jean-Michel are correct, too.
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ipofanes

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 04:53:03 am »
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That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare. 
Would Native Village (or Crossroads), Mandarin, Mint be an example of an opening where Mandarin is advisable?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 05:02:04 am by ipofanes »
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Awaclus

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 06:19:11 am »
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That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare. 
Would Native Village (or Crossroads), Mandarin, Mint be an example of an opening where Mandarin is advisable?
Depends on the board, obviously. Most of the time I would say no, but if it's an obvious engine board and Mint is the only trashing, then yes.
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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2014, 06:46:13 am »
+1

I would put it this way: Copper is a bad card, so making you play your coppers more often (by putting them back on the deck via mandarin) is generally not a good thing.

DG

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 07:35:28 am »
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There are a few times when buying an early Mandarin has a purpose. This could be opening cellar/mandarin/stables perhaps, since the cellar and stables are not offering much if they can only draw more copper and estates.

It is also worth sometimes keeping your powder dry with a mandarin. There might a perfect {gold, silver, estate, estate, estate} hand for a mandarin later and you don't want your deck to be full of mandarins already when it comes.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:55:56 am by DG »
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itchiko

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 09:24:17 am »
+2

i always wondered but i never took the time to make the stat myself.

How good is a Mandarin/Potion opening to reach 3P on the first reshuffle? It may be one turn slower but if it is more stable it can be worth it if reaching that 3P early is the key to the match.
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AdamH

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 09:38:22 am »
+2

Also, the main function of Mandarin is quite weak to be worth $5. I'd say it's something like ~$4 instead. So you could think of Mandarin openings as 4/5/2 instead of 5/5/2.

I think Mandarin is a good card. It's not always super-power-mega-awesome but I think it's just as good for Big Money as Courtyard. Granted, Count is pretty much strictly better* but I definitely think it's good.

* "Count: Strictly Better™ than Mandarin since 2013"
** "Squire: Strictly Better™ than Herbalist since 2013"
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Davio

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2014, 09:48:49 am »
+1

Well, if Mandarin is just as good as Courtyard, it obviously isn't since Mandarin costs $5 with a penalty and Courtyard costs just $2.

I think I use Mandarin more often for its on-buy effect mid/late game where I'm hoping that my Gold and Silver can line up with something decent next turn for a Province buy.
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minovsky

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2014, 09:49:18 am »
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I would put it this way: Copper is a bad card, so making you play your coppers more often (by putting them back on the deck via mandarin) is generally not a good thing.

this is plain enough for me thx!

and thx to everyone who replied. some are still a bit too deep for me, but I am trying to keep playing more to get a better sense! :)
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AdamH

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2014, 09:51:35 am »
+1

Well, if Mandarin is just as good as Courtyard, it obviously isn't since Mandarin costs $5 with a penalty and Courtyard costs just $2.

I think I use Mandarin more often for its on-buy effect mid/late game where I'm hoping that my Gold and Silver can line up with something decent next turn for a Province buy.

This is all true, I'm not saying it's as good as Courtyard, but I'm saying its effect on your deck is as good for Big Money as Courtyard is. Given all of this, I think it's much better when bought in the mid-game as opposed to opening with it.
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Davio

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2014, 10:09:55 am »
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I think it's interesting enough to consider what 5/5/2 openings might be good, I'm also quite sure we've done that already somewhere else when the card came out. :)

I think it's worth it to look at a 5/5/2 opening when the other 5's you want provide cycling/drawing but no economy.
If you have 5/2 and open Lab/Cellar, you'll run into a few $4's and $3's before you get to $5 again for more Labs.
Opening Mandarin/Lab/Cellar does delay you a turn, but gives some economy in return. I think a comparison might be to a Feast where you give up some early advantage for a guaranteed $5.
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markusin

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2014, 10:13:51 am »
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I think I use Mandarin more often for its on-buy effect mid/late game where I'm hoping that my Gold and Silver can line up with something decent next turn for a Province buy.
This effect alone makes money-based strategies a bit more reliable to go for when Mandarin is on the board. It helps that Mandarin is a decent card in those decks as well.
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eliegel34

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2014, 02:58:30 pm »
+1

This is all true, I'm not saying it's as good as Courtyard, but I'm saying its effect on your deck is as good for Big Money as Courtyard is. Given all of this, I think it's much better when bought in the mid-game as opposed to opening with it.

I don't think the put 1 card back effect is as good for Mandarin as it is for Courtyard, since you are choosing from 4 cards vs. 7.

When I've played BM Mandarin, I've always opened Mandarin/Mandarin/Silver/-.  Mandarin seems pretty good as a big money enabler; I would guess similar to Smithy.
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manthos88

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 06:14:40 am »
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I would definitely open 5/5/2 in an IGG game...
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SirPeebles

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 06:50:02 am »
+2

I would definitely open 5/5/2 in an IGG game...

Maybe if I'm first player, but if I'm last player I probably want to buy the IGG turn 1 to get a Curse into your deck before you shuffle.
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c4master

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2014, 11:33:16 am »
+1

In short: The more treasure it returns to the top of the deck, the more Mandarin slows you down.

Think of it like this:
If you return your Copper to the deck and purchase a Mandarin, you increase the number of turns between buying the Mandarin/other good $5 card and playing it.  Meanwhile, if your opponent also opens 5/2 but gets a good $5 card (let's say Witch) he can potentially play it on turn 3.  This is probably bad for you, since he's reaping the benefit of playing the Witch earlier.  It slows down your momentum, pretty much. 

That said, there are some decks that will like having a Mandarin and don't mind getting started slower, but those are probably pretty rare.  Usually, the on buy effect of Mandarin is better late in the game when you want another shot at buying Province with your Gold or something.

Welcome to the forums.

Actually, winning the split in a plain witch game with no engine depends much more on luck than on 1 turn, because you have to reshuffle your (most probably two) witches twice before the curses are gone. Since later on, a reshuffle takes about 2-3 turns, this means, you would roughly deal about 0.5 curses less. Still, the mandarin helps you on turn 4-6 to get one more witch before your second shuffle, so you would rather win one turn and thus lead by 0.5 curses. So I claim, you could actually more often than not win the curse split AND have a nice card for late game (more reliable than witches if there are no villages).

If there are villages on the board, the whole thing changes, since you can maybe play your witches more often than every other turn. Thus, it's more about who's first to play 5-6 witches, and less about who can do it more reliably.

Yet, I would probably not go for Mandarin if there is an IGG, since it deals curses faster than witches, i.e. every time you buy one. So this card doesn't depend on reshuffles and thus you are more likely to lose the split if you "waste" one turn.

Of course, strong terminal attacks like ghost ship stringly seem to favor not opening mandarin, whereas nonterminal draw cards like lab or stables seem to favor mandarin.
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Grujah

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2014, 12:00:15 pm »
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There are a few times when buying an early Mandarin has a purpose. This could be opening cellar/mandarin/stables perhaps, since the cellar and stables are not offering much if they can only draw more copper and estates.

Madarin/Hunting Party Opening, transitioning into HP/Mandarin/Silver/Gold thing?
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2014, 03:38:05 pm »
+3

We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.
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ehunt

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2014, 03:40:43 pm »
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We used to have a fun mandarin/mandarin/mandarin /apprentice opening. Is that still done these days ?
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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2014, 08:44:15 pm »
+2

Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

Yes, very often I would. Mine is better the earlier and more often you play it. On most boards, I'd much prefer a Mine/5/2 opening than a Mandarin/5/2 opening.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 01:27:12 pm by LastFootnote »
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c4master

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2014, 10:02:44 am »
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We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: newbie question on mandarin
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2014, 10:18:04 am »
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We should probably stop talking about 5/5/2 openings, because Mandarin isn't one. It's a Mandarin/5/2 opening.

5/5/2 would obviously be amazing if you could open, say, Mountebank/Mountebank/nothing, but you can't, because the first card is Mandarin. Would you want to open Mine/5/2 if you could? Probably not.

When you buy Mandarin with your 5, your deck gains a Mandarin and in exchange you are a turn behind on everything else, because you just doubled Turn 1. So if you went first, you're now going second plus a Mandarin, and if you went second, you're now going a turn later than your opponent plus a Mandarin.

Even if you repeat it 20 times, it's still wrong. You're not one turn behind, what counts (ecept for IGG/Inn) is the shuffle. The correct point would be "one shuffle behind", but this doesn't happen.
The truth is: Mandarin helps you in getting exactly 5 or 6 on your turns 4-6 which helps you getting more of the $5-cards BEFORE your second shuffle.

And yes, in about 75% of all games, I would gladly open Mine/5/2. Even Mandarin/5/2 is good, if there is no serious trashing and at least one other $5 card, I would like to get two of.

But you already get one of them before Shuffle 1, and if you want it that badly, you probably want to be playing it as early as possible. Most of the good $5s help generate more $5 hands on their own, and a lot of them are terminal. Sure, Mandarin is going to make it pretty likely that on turns 4-5, you'll pick up 2 more $5 cards, and you'll have three 5s and Mandarin in your second shuffle. Meanwhile, your opponent picked up his second 5 on turns 3-4, had it in his second shuffle, and used his two 5s to pick up two more on turns 5-6 before he shuffles again. You're now basically even on 5s, he's been playing them more, and you're stuck with Mandarin slowing you down which is a bad thing in the early game.
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