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[eHalcyon]

Here is a kickstarter for a game called "Let Them Eat Shrimp".  It's by the same guy who designed Biblios, and I'm noting it because Biblios is a very well-reviewed filler game which you can select for one of the reward tiers.

[nkirbit]

Twistedarcher and I just tried out Paperback, and did not enjoy it at all.  We actually stopped playing a few minutes into it.

The main mechanic was just very frustrating to use.  Each turn, you have a specific number of letters to use, and the best play is ALWAYS to make the longest word possible using those words.  If you don't make the longest word possible, you've messed up (at least with all the cards we saw).  This leads to frustrating situations.. if I have 7 letters, and only manage to make a 6 letter word, I just feel horrible about it.  I've clearly messed up.

The choices were to either spend a lot of time until I figure out the correct word to make, or give up and play a suboptimal word.. we just were very dissatisfied with the mechanic.  Either you got it right or you felt awful.  There may be strategic choices later in the game, but early on it was a simple question of, "Did you get it?  No?... well, you're behind now." 

[Twistedarcher]

To expand on what Nkirbit said:

The idea of the game is good in theory -- it combines two ideas I like -- deckbuilding and word games. However, in execution, the game didn't capture me.

The first couple of turns are frustrating -- you start with 5 consonants (RSTLN), and 5 wild cards, drawing 5 cards a turn. Basically, as Nkirbit says, the first couple turns turn into spending a lot of time trying to come up with the maximum length word, or feeling really frustrated that you couldn't get there, because it's going to be possible 100% of the time if you think long enough about it.

The opening buys aren't that satisfying, either. Most of the cards have additional actions (+2 cards on the next turn, your opponent's wilds are worth $1 less next turn, etc. etc.), but there's no feeling of building an engine. They seem more like nice add-ons that you're always happy to draw, but nothing to build a strategy around. And ultimately, given the randomness of the words, it didn't feel like to me that there would be a difference in buying an "G" vs a "B", or an "ER" vs and "SE", or anything like that. It just seemed very random.

We didn't finish the game, as we were too frustrated by the mechanic. There may very well be some strategic value in when to buy VP cards vs. letter cards, and how long to spend buying letter cards that give lots of money vs. how soon to buy VP cards. I'd like to see the end of the game if the first 5 turns weren't so frustrating. The turns just take too long for a quick deckbuilder game, and the payoff of getting a good word isn't worth the frustration of not being able to use your entire hand.

On a different note....eHalc, I know you're a fan of Among the Stars. It's a game I was considering buying when it was on KS, and I'm a huge 7 wonders fan. Would you say the game is worth having in a collection in addition to 7 wonders (which I already don't get to play as much as I want to). If they are pretty interchangeable, I don't think I'll get it, but if they are different enough I would look into getting it. How different do the games feel from one another?

[eHalcyon]

Interesting thoughts on Paperback.  I wonder if it makes a difference that (being on this forum) you approach it from a very Dominion-oriented background?  Thinking about Paperback (with the caveat that I am not fully brushed up on its specific mechanisms), I imagine that it has a bit of a conflict in its nature.  If I'm going to play a word game like Scrabble, it's more about testing my word-mettle against my opponents than testing my strategic ability.  If I'm going to play a board/card game like Dominion, it's about whether I can make better strategic and tactical choices, with an element of luck and risk assessment thrown in.  Perhaps those two goals don't mix together so well.  With Scrabble, at least you know you're going to be in for a lot of time sitting there, staring at letters and trying to tease out the best words (unless you are crazy good).  In a deck-building game, you just want to get on with it... and yet you are compelled to try to get the optimal solution.

It might be more enjoyable as a casual game rather than a competitive one.  Throw in a time limit, maybe?  Or maybe it would play better if you think of it more like Scrabble than Dominion?  I mean, do you find Scrabble to be a frustrating game?  Sometimes I do, but if I'm in the mood for Scrabble then that frustration is part of the experience I am seeking.

At the least, the game might be good as an educational game to play with your kids (if you have any).

On a different note....eHalc, I know you're a fan of Among the Stars. It's a game I was considering buying when it was on KS, and I'm a huge 7 wonders fan. Would you say the game is worth having in a collection in addition to 7 wonders (which I already don't get to play as much as I want to). If they are pretty interchangeable, I don't think I'll get it, but if they are different enough I would look into getting it. How different do the games feel from one another?

I don't know if I can really call myself a fan yet, since I've only gotten two plays of it.  The experience is definitely different than 7 Wonders though.  As far as feel goes, there are two primary differences.  The first is the most obvious -- AtS has that whole spatial element.  It gives you something else to think about.  Trying to figure out the best way to build your station is an interesting mini-game of its own.

The second thing is pacing.  7W builds up from age to age.  Age I is about setting up and Age III is about scoring massive points, with Age II a bit of a transition (mostly still set up though).  AtS doesn't have that at all.  All the cards are mixed into one deck and there's no economic base that you have to fashion.  Pretty much every card gives you points, and many of them are granted immediately, moving you along a score track.  AtS is like a race where you are constantly jockeying for position.  You can tell if someone is taking the lead, or if scores are very close, which can add to the tension.  On the flip side, 7W has more of a narrative, with the climax of the empire you built up in the first two ages finally producing all your big VP dividends.  So both games feel very different in that regard, and I think there's a place for both in a games library.

[Twistedarcher]

Yeah, I think our deck-building experience definitely colored our experience. Two of my favorite things about Dominion are how quick it is and the choices you have to make. The turns in paperback are definitely slower, and that was frustrating.

The difficult choices were in actually creating a word as long as possible, and less so in which letters to buy at the end of the turn. So it's definitely very Scrabblesque in the sense that the turns are puzzling your best option on which word to play -- and there are certain interesting elements, such as getting bonuses for using more wilds, and I'm sure several others that we didn't get a chance to see. I'm definitely a scrabble fan (although I rarely play it), and that part of the game could be okay, although I think I'd rather just play Scrabble than Paperback.

I think that the most frustrating part was the abundance of wilds overall. The tiles you have in Scrabble really limits your options -- while there's potentially many places on the board to go, you are fairly limited by your tiles, and they really guide your choices (apart from the 2-3 letter short words, which adds a whole new dynamic that isn't present in Paperback. Longer is always better in Paperback, I believe.) In this game, you can be sitting there with 7 letters to build from, 4 of which are wild, and rather than this being liberating, it was extremely overwhelming to me. It gave me the sense that "I have four wilds, of course I can build a seven letter word!", but being unable to find that word quickly was frustrating, both for me and for my opponent. A time limit is definitely an option, although it's not going to make me feel any better when I'm unable to use all my letters. I imagine this gets better later in the game as more and more letters are added, and the wilds are less frequent. (However, the VP cards count as wilds, although they don't add any money for buys that turn). I definitely do want to play it again, and hopefully get through the entire thing.

I think the game attempted to combine the best parts of a deckbuilder like Dominion and a word game like Scrabble. Unfortunately, the parts don't combine that well. A lot of the appeal from Dominion, to me, comes from not just playing your deck, but choosing what to put into your deck, and it's just not interesting in Paperback, unfortunately.

EDIT: Looking around, it's getting mostly positive reviews from what I can see. So maybe it's just not my cup of tea. I think if you're looking to Dominion as your point of comparison, you won't be that impressed -- if you're looking to compare it to Scrabble, it can do well. 

[eHalcyon]

There is a kickstarter up for a game called Pay Dirt.  I don't know much about it but it is described as a worker placement engine building game, so Dominion fans might be find it interesting.  It's by the guys who did Alien Frontiers, which is fairly popular.  Might be worth a look.

Edit: Catacombs also looks really nice.  It's an update on the original base game but with a very different art direction than the original.  I like the new look a lot.  My reservations -- it's expensive for me, especially with shipping, and I don't know if I need or want a dexterity game in my collection.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Funding in 7 hours is good, right?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-tactics-the-flame-of-freedom

[eHalcyon]

What's the f.ds coupon code?

[Ozle]

I bought Fallen City of Karaz off kickstarter...badly burned.

Such a lot of potential, great graphics amd idea...let down by terrible gameplay and useless rulebook.

It really made me doubt all the 'reviewers', who do the reviews in return for a free game. You could tell within minutes where all the probels were.

Plus the creator hasnt sent all the rewards (target date nov 2012!), despite launching 3 other kick starters since.
And now he is blaming the model company for it all.


I may repurpose the board and minitures to make my own game

[Ozle]

Funding in 7 hours is good, right?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-tactics-the-flame-of-freedom

Argh,$50 shipping costs, gutted. (Not the creators fault though i know)

[eHalcyon]

I bought Fallen City of Karaz off kickstarter...badly burned.

Such a lot of potential, great graphics amd idea...let down by terrible gameplay and useless rulebook.

It really made me doubt all the 'reviewers', who do the reviews in return for a free game. You could tell within minutes where all the probels were.

Plus the creator hasnt sent all the rewards (target date nov 2012!), despite launching 3 other kick starters since.
And now he is blaming the model company for it all.


I may repurpose the board and minitures to make my own game

That's a good reminder that KS is always a risk.  Good to check up on the creators to make sure they've delivered on campaigns before, or have the help of a trusted publisher.

Edit: As for the gameplay problem... I suppose I'll have to stick with those who have a proven track record.  The first thing I'd backed was Among the Stars expansion and they already had the base game and several other games under their belts, well-reviewed and all.  The second thing I'm backing is The Ancient World, and the guy has proven himself with multiple KS campaigns for a bunch of quality games.  There were a couple of others I was looking at that I'll have to reconsider though.

[eHalcyon]

There is a kickstarter up for a game called Pay Dirt.  I don't know much about it but it is described as a worker placement engine building game, so Dominion fans might be find it interesting.  It's by the guys who did Alien Frontiers, which is fairly popular.  Might be worth a look.

Just watched rahdo's run-through of Pay Dirt.  I don't particularly see why they've called it an "engine building" game.  Maybe with a really loose definition.  rahdo suggests that the engine is already built in the form of the dirt-moving playerboard, and the game is more like engine optimization.  That may be true, but it's pretty different from the engine building we think of in Dominion.

I'm also not sure it qualifies as a worker placement game, because it seems like there isn't any actual blocking -- something I think is integral to the worker placement genre.  The BGG mechanic page for worker placement states outright that "there is a limit on the number of times a single action may be drafted each round".  As far as I can tell, there is no limit in Pay Dirt.  The rules even say that players can do all the worker placement simultaneously.  It suggests the possibility of conflict (in which case you resolve in turn order), but I don't see how that can happen.  Maybe it's referring to resolving the purchasing of gear, but that only comes after the placement phase.  So this seems less a worker placement game than an action point allowance system, where there is a mechanic for gaining more action points.

This looks more like an economic game with a bit of action optimization than worker placement or engine building.  The auction phase could be fairly interesting, and the economics look like they might add a fair bit of tension.  You win by having the most gold nuggets, but you also want to sell your nuggets to get more money.  Moreover, having the most nuggets during the game is actually bad because whoever is in the lead will probably get saddled with the worst Hardship.  Along with the specific equipment, the gear and the personnel, you have room to optimize in when you buy new equipment or gear.  As these things get used, they build up "wear".  You can set a worker to removing two wear cubes from a piece of equipment, but you could also buy new equipment/gear outright and not worry about the wear.  You probably want to try to get the most out of your workers (never removing just 1 cube, never selling just one nugget with a worker because each worker can sell up to 2 at a time) but maybe sometimes it'll be worth it to be inefficent (or to keep the nugget for points when the game is close to ending).

Anyway, the game looks interesting, but anyone thinking of backing it should probably look over it carefully.  I'm definitely leery of that "worker placement" description.  As far as I can tell, the tension is in the auction and economic decisions, not in the action selection.

Edit: I just realized that there are only two "actions" that are shared by all players (selling gold and lining up to purchase gear).  All the rest are personal actions on the player board (using equipment and repairing gear/equipment).  That makes it even less of a worker placement game in my mind.

[shraeye]

i'm posting and watching, yay.

[eHalcyon]

The KS for The Ancient World ends in 3 hours.  We are so, so close to the $50K stretch goal for custom dice.  If anybody is on the fence, now is the time to hop in.

[Ozle]

The KS for The Ancient World ends in 3 hours.  We are so, so close to the $50K stretch goal for custom dice.  If anybody is on the fence, now is the time to hop in.

I like the look of it, but after getting burned last time I'm not keen on first time devs as there's no. Guarantee the game has been tested properly

Looks nice though

[eHalcyon]

The KS for The Ancient World ends in 3 hours.  We are so, so close to the $50K stretch goal for custom dice.  If anybody is on the fence, now is the time to hop in.

I like the look of it, but after getting burned last time I'm not keen on first time devs as there's no. Guarantee the game has been tested properly

Looks nice though

If it helps change your mind, this guy is not a first time dev.  He's done several games, all (I think) on Kickstarter, and they've all been well reviewed.  His most successful game is the lightweight 8 Minute Empire (and a sequel, 8ME: Legends), but he's also had some heavier games -- City of Iron (and expansion) and Empires of the Void.

As for playtesting, there are two very long threads on BGG filled with playtesting notes, and you can see how the game has evolved.  I'm satisfied that it will be a well balanced game and I have a lot of confidence in this developer.

I even think he has a good reason for using Kickstarter.  As far as I can tell, he is designer, publisher and artist for his games.

[Ozle]

Hmm that is tempting then.

I was just saying to myself the other day I need a new worker placement game...

[eHalcyon]

Hmm that is tempting then.

I was just saying to myself the other day I need a new worker placement game...

The tough thing for you is that the shipping might be pretty bad for you... not sure if they even ship to Tuvalu.



Edit: campaign ended just 1K short of the custom dice stretch goal, but Good Guy Ryan is throwing them anyway because we were so close, hurrah!

[Drab Emordnilap]

Hey, I'm on a YouTube! Talking about Sentinel Tactics. I'm the one with the choppy cell phone video.

[Ozle]

Hmm that is tempting then.

I was just saying to myself the other day I need a new worker placement game...

The tough thing for you is that the shipping might be pretty bad for you... not sure if they even ship to Tuvalu.



Edit: campaign ended just 1K short of the custom dice stretch goal, but Good Guy Ryan is throwing them anyway because we were so close, hurrah!

Yeah shipping normally makes things more expensive than just waiting normally.
I save about £10 but lose some exclusive promos by waiting till it hits amazon.

Also, I left Tuvalu years ago aboard a cruise ship, keep up!

[eHalcyon]

There's a new kickstarter up for Among the Stars (reprint), if anybody is interested.  Includes pledge levels for the base game, the expansion and previously released promos.  I'm in for $10 to see what new stretch goal stuff comes out.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Super last minute shameless plug for Sentinel Tactics - like 2 hours to go last minute. ._.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-tactics-the-flame-of-freedom?ref=banner

[eHalcyon]

Super last minute shameless plug for Sentinel Tactics - like 2 hours to go last minute. ._.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-tactics-the-flame-of-freedom?ref=banner

Congrats on a super successful campaign!


Here's a reminder to people that the campaign for Among the Stars reprint is ending in 3 days.

In other news, there's a new, neat looking game up from Cool Minis Or Not: Dogs of War.  I'm a new fan of the designer, Paolo Mori, mostly because of Libertalia.  The gameplay looks very interesting.  Summary, from what I gleaned from the gameplay video:

- There are 6 Noble Houses that are constantly fighting amongst themselves; you play Mercenaries that ally with the houses to gain influence.
- At the start of each round, the 6 houses are randomly set up in 3 one-on-one battles.  Each battle also gets a random bonus and a random mat with what are essentially worker placement spaces.
- There is a mustering phase, where you pay money to get soldiers and other warfaring units (as cards).
- Then you actually go about placing your captains (read: workers) with the Noble Houses you want to support.  The space you choose will grant you some bonuses (more units, money, influence over that Noble House, maybe some other things).  You will also be playing out those cards you mustered to move the battle in that House's favour.  If other players join up with the opposing House, they may pit their own forces against you.  It's described as a kind of tug-of-war. 
- When that is all done, the winner of each battle is determined.  For each battle, whichever player helped out the winning House the most gets a bonus and the winning House moves up on a track, which makes them worth more points for the influence you have in that House.
- Repeat this for some number of rounds.

I'm sitting this one out though, because I'm about to order some other games.  I'm also wondering if it may feel a bit repetitive over time.  But it does have some interesting player interaction, and it looks like it plays lightning fast.

Oh, also, Level 99 Games announced that in 2 weeks they'll be launching the kickstarter for the second edition of BattleCON: War of Indines.  BattleCON is basically a fighting game simulator.  War was the original game with 18 distinct playable characters.  Devastation of Indines was a stand-alone expansion with 30 characters.  The upcoming edition includes balance updates and art updates to bring War in line with Devastation.

[taly]

kickstarter give a great "push" for alot of great games and ideas but lately people use it for greed :/

[Jdaki]

My copy of Greed came earlier this week together with basic Kingdom Builder- which I played and enjoyed. Haven't cracked open Greed yet