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[Awaclus]

Most remodelers do not fall in the "limited use" category, because of Fortress   .

Also Procession does not fall in the "limited use" category, you can easily make infinite chains with Graverobber/Rogue, and do something useful. For example you can repeat X-X-X-Rogue-Rogue-Rogue-Rogue-Hunting Grounds (or 19*X-10*Rogue-10*Graverobber-Scrying Pool).

They do because you get to design the kingdom and exclude cards that make cards come back from the trash.

[Asper]

Also Procession does not fall in the "limited use" category, you can easily make infinite chains with Graverobber/Rogue, and do something useful. For example you can repeat X-X-X-Rogue-Rogue-Rogue-Rogue-Hunting Grounds (or 19*X-10*Rogue-10*Graverobber-Scrying Pool).

You cannot do infinite chains with those, unless you mean over several turns, which ITR isn't needed for and which isn't the point of the challenge.
As Procession is a tfb i admit that i made a mistake putting it in the "no use" category, though. Clearly it belongs in "limited use".

[Holger]

3) Any combination of the following that has at least one of the "limited use" cards in it.

Limited use
Action cards that trash cards from your hand to work: Moneylender, Remodel, Graverobber, Expand, Forge, Remake, Treasure Map, Develop, Stonemason, Transmute, Salvager, Trader, Taxman, Mine and Altar
Action cards that remove cards from you hand other ways: Island

No use
Actions that ITR has no effect on: Secret Chamber, Tactician, Outpost, Library, Watchtower
Multipliers limited by your hand: Procession, Throne Room, King's Court
Non-Actions: All


Honorable mention:
Rats (which gives actions and cards but doesn't make the card "broken" for obvious reasons)

Altar, Forge and Salvager (+1 buy) are unlimited by your hand size: Altar still gains a $5 card and Forge a Copper if you trash nothing. The multipliers are "limited use" instead of "no use", obviously.

Infinite money may not necessarily be broken as long as there aren't easy +buys, and vice versa.

Infinite actions may not be a big deal, [...]

Agreed; I think infinite draw might also be acceptable (though very strong; probably ITR should cost $15 or so then). Whether you draw all cards or all but one (with Advisor or Envoy) is usually no big difference.

With no cantrips, no Golem/Herald/BoM, no +$ and +buy on a single card, no unconditional gainers (Workshop etc.), no trashing attacks and no token-giving cards, ITR might be reasonable (if strong) at $10; you'd need multiple ITR's to do really crazy things...

[florrat]

They do because you get to design the kingdom and exclude cards that make cards come back from the trash.

Good point, I didn't read the question carefully enough.

You cannot do infinite chains with those, unless you mean over several turns, which ITR isn't needed for and which isn't the point of the challenge.
As Procession is a tfb i admit that i made a mistake putting it in the "no use" category, though. Clearly it belongs in "limited use".

You can (assuming the right kingdom). Suppose 1 Rogue and 1 Scrying Pool is already in the trash, and you have a deck consisting only of action cards.
Process X, play it twice and trash it.
Process Rogue, gain X and Rogue
Process Rogue, gain Scrying Pool and Rogue
Process Scrying Pool, draw deck
Then we've played X twice, and we are in the same initial position: 1 Rogue and 1 Scrying Pool in the trash. And you've played X twice.

[Asper]

Altar, Forge and Salvager (+1 buy) are unlimited by your hand size: Altar still gains a $5 card and Forge a Copper if you trash nothing. The multipliers are "limited use" instead of "no use", obviously.

Ah, i missed out that the gain of Altar was unconditional. Nur sure whether i see gaining the Copper pile as something that makes the card broken, at least when we are still designing the kingdom ourselves (so no Gardens). It still is not "limited" in the way i wanted it to, so good catch. Totally forgot about Salvager's buy, too, so i will remove those three just to have a correct list.

The multipliers are of no use, because when you can play an action as many times as you want with ITR, why would you use TR itself to play it two more times? I see that they might be useful to get to the 10$ that ITR costs, but the categories are about what a card does when played with ITR (nothing for multipliers). Otherwise Tactician and Secret Chamber would also be in the "limited use" list.

You can (assuming the right kingdom). Suppose 1 Rogue and 1 Scrying Pool is already in the trash, and you have a deck consisting only of action cards.
Process X, play it twice and trash it.
Process Rogue, gain X and Rogue
Process Rogue, gain Scrying Pool and Rogue
Process Scrying Pool, draw deck
Then we've played X twice, and we are in the same initial position: 1 Rogue and 1 Scrying Pool in the trash. And you've played X twice.

That's not unlimited. You can not play Procession unlimited times during one turn.

[florrat]

That's not unlimited. You can not play Procession unlimited times during one turn.

I do not understand. Why is it not unlimited? I can repeat the instructions I gave over and over, as much as I want. How is that not unlimited?

[Holger]

The multipliers are of no use, because when you can play an action as many times as you want with ITR, why would you use TR itself to play it two more times? I see that they might be useful to get to the 10$ that ITR costs, but the categories are about what a card does when played with ITR (nothing for multipliers).

Playing ITR-TR allows you to play arbitrarily many action cards twice; ITR itself only allows to play a single action card (even if infinitely often). It may be rare that you'd rather play e.g. 3 Action cards twice than one of them infinitely often, but it can happen: E.g. ITR-TR-Duchess+Militia+CountAltar can gain you a Province and two Duchies, but ITR played on either of Duchess, Militia, or CountAltar gives you less than 12 VP if there are <4 Duchies (and no other VP cards costing <=$5) left in the supply.

Edit: Fixed example.

[Awaclus]

The multipliers are of no use, because when you can play an action as many times as you want with ITR, why would you use TR itself to play it two more times? I see that they might be useful to get to the 10$ that ITR costs, but the categories are about what a card does when played with ITR (nothing for multipliers).

Playing ITR-TR allows you to play arbitrarily many action cards twice; ITR itself only allows to play a single action card (even if infinitely often). It may be rare that you'd rather play e.g. 3 Action cards twice than one of them infinitely often, but it can happen: E.g. ITR-TR-Duchess+Militia+Count can gain you a Province and two Duchies, but ITR played on either of Duchess, Militia, or Count gives you less than 12 VP if there are <4 Duchies left in the supply.

ITR-Count gains you as many Duchies as there are in the supply plus a Province. Though you might still want the discard attack from Militia rather than the extra Duchies in some cases.

[GeoLib]

That's not unlimited. You can not play Procession unlimited times during one turn.

You can if you ITR it...

More to the point, you can't gain scrying pool with Rogue

[Holger]

The multipliers are of no use, because when you can play an action as many times as you want with ITR, why would you use TR itself to play it two more times? I see that they might be useful to get to the 10$ that ITR costs, but the categories are about what a card does when played with ITR (nothing for multipliers).

Playing ITR-TR allows you to play arbitrarily many action cards twice; ITR itself only allows to play a single action card (even if infinitely often). It may be rare that you'd rather play e.g. 3 Action cards twice than one of them infinitely often, but it can happen: E.g. ITR-TR-Duchess+Militia+Count can gain you a Province and two Duchies, but ITR played on either of Duchess, Militia, or Count gives you less than 12 VP if there are <4 Duchies left in the supply.

ITR-Count gains you as many Duchies as there are in the supply plus a Province. Though you might still want the discard attack from Militia rather than the extra Duchies in some cases.

Thanks for noting, I missed Count's treasure option; I've replaced it by Altar to give an unambiguous example.

That's not unlimited. You can not play Procession unlimited times during one turn.

I do not understand. Why is it not unlimited? I can repeat the instructions I gave over and over, as much as I want. How is that not unlimited?

If your card X is fixed, playing Procession infinitely often like this doesn't do anything useful; you could just play ITR-X instead, giving the same end result of playing X infinitely often. But if there's e.g. one card of each kingdom pile in the trash, you can use this to recursively play all Rogue target infinitely often, which indeed makes ITR-Procession unlimited by your hand.

That's not unlimited. You can not play Procession unlimited times during one turn.

You can if you ITR it...

More to the point, you can't gain scrying pool with Rogue

Right; but you can just replace it by Smithy in the example (if the Rogue pile and your deck are empty otherwise)...

[dominator 123]

2) Woodcutter, Pawn, Bridge, Market etc. (Anything that gives you at least 1 buy and $1)

[Awaclus]

2) Woodcutter, Pawn, Bridge, Market etc. (Anything that gives you at least 1 buy and $1)

What if your opponent already has more than half of the available VP?

[Holger]

2) Woodcutter, Pawn, Bridge, Market etc. (Anything that gives you at least 1 buy and $1)

(Ninjaed)
That doesn't work, the opponent may already have more than half the available VPs . See http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10422.msg344475#msg344475 .

NoMoreFun, which card were you thinking about?

[NoMoreFun]

2) Woodcutter, Pawn, Bridge, Market etc. (Anything that gives you at least 1 buy and $1)

(Ninjaed)
That doesn't work, the opponent may already have more than half the available VPs . See http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10422.msg344475#msg344475 .

NoMoreFun, which card were you thinking about?

I was thinking Swindler, which is in the 2nd post, but there's a few caveats.

[NoMoreFun]

Thanks for noting, I missed Count's treasure option; I've replaced it by Altar to give an unambiguous example.

Altar's gain doesn't depend on you trashing a card, so it also lets you gain all the Duchies. In fact, you must gain all the cards in the supply costing 5 or less.

[Asper]

That's not unlimited. You can not play Procession unlimited times during one turn.

You can if you ITR it...

More to the point, you can't gain scrying pool with Rogue

Ah, i get the point...
Sure, that works, but only as long as you have a drawer. I never allowed one in my ITR kingdom though, which is why Procession can not be usefully played unlimited times in my kingdoms. The fact that it's broken comes from the drawer, not Procession.

The multipliers are of no use, because when you can play an action as many times as you want with ITR, why would you use TR itself to play it two more times? I see that they might be useful to get to the 10$ that ITR costs, but the categories are about what a card does when played with ITR (nothing for multipliers).

Playing ITR-TR allows you to play arbitrarily many action cards twice; ITR itself only allows to play a single action card (even if infinitely often). It may be rare that you'd rather play e.g. 3 Action cards twice than one of them infinitely often, but it can happen: E.g. ITR-TR-Duchess+Militia+CountAltar can gain you a Province and two Duchies, but ITR played on either of Duchess, Militia, or CountAltar gives you less than 12 VP if there are <4 Duchies (and no other VP cards costing <=$5) left in the supply.

Edit: Fixed example.

I admit you can use TR to become more flexible, which i didn't see before. As an example using the allowed cards for the kingdom, if you have Stonemason, Graverobber, TR, ITR and another action in hand, TR allows you to trash the action card with Stonemason and to get it back the same turn with Graverobber. So yes, you are right here.

[Awaclus]

Thanks for noting, I missed Count's treasure option; I've replaced it by Altar to give an unambiguous example.

Altar's gain doesn't depend on you trashing a card, so it also lets you gain all the Duchies. In fact, you must gain all the cards in the supply costing 5 or less.

But it doesn't let you gain a Province unlike Count.

[Holger]

Thanks for noting, I missed Count's treasure option; I've replaced it by Altar to give an unambiguous example.

Altar's gain doesn't depend on you trashing a card, so it also lets you gain all the Duchies. In fact, you must gain all the cards in the supply costing 5 or less.

But it doesn't let you gain a Province unlike Count.

Yes, that's the point. ITR-TR gives 12 VP in the example, ITR-Altar only gives all remaining Duchies, Estates and Curses, which can easily be <12 VP (possibly even <0 VP). If you're trailing by 7-11 VP and there's only 2 Duchies and no Estates left and another pile is empty, ITR-Altar would lose the game, while ITR-TR lets you win due to 3-piling.

[Holger]

3) Any combination of the following that has at least one of the "limited use" cards in it.

Limited use
Action cards that trash cards from your hand to work: Moneylender, Remodel, Graverobber, Expand, Remake, Treasure Map, Develop, Stonemason, Transmute, Trader, Taxman, Mine and Procession
Action cards that remove cards from you hand other ways: Island

No use
Actions that ITR has no effect on: Secret Chamber, Tactician, Outpost, Library, Watchtower
Non-Actions: All


Depends
Multipliers limited by your hand: Throne Room, King's Court
(Allow playing more than one different card in a turn, which is only relevant if there is a that card does something when played from an empty hand. Those cards include "no use cards" that still don't get additional benefit from being played by ITR)

Thanks for fixing this. Personally, I would just put TR and KC in the "Limited use" category: ITR-TR also does something with cards that don't do anything when played from an empty hand - e.g ITR-TR-Mine-Develop can gain you two Duchies if you have two Silvers in hand (by turning the Silvers into 2 Gold), but ITR-Develop can't. But it's your list, of course...

Also, I noticed that Graverobber is not really "limited to your hand" since you can gain the whole trash pile (in the $3-$6 price range) with it.
Trading Post and Chapel are missing from the "limited use" category (each "successful" play reduces your hand size at least by 1); and Counting House is another "No use" card.

[Asper]

3) Any combination of the following that has at least one of the "limited use" cards in it.

Limited use
Action cards that trash cards from your hand to work: Moneylender, Remodel, Graverobber, Expand, Remake, Treasure Map, Develop, Stonemason, Transmute, Trader, Taxman, Mine and Procession
Action cards that remove cards from you hand other ways: Island

No use
Actions that ITR has no effect on: Secret Chamber, Tactician, Outpost, Library, Watchtower
Non-Actions: All


Depends
Multipliers limited by your hand: Throne Room, King's Court
(Allow playing more than one different card in a turn, which is only relevant if there is a that card does something when played from an empty hand. Those cards include "no use cards" that still don't get additional benefit from being played by ITR)

Thanks for fixing this. Personally, I would just put TR and KC in the "Limited use" category: ITR-TR also does something with cards that don't do anything when played from an empty hand - e.g ITR-TR-Mine-Develop can gain you two Duchies if you have two Silvers in hand (by turning the Silvers into 2 Gold), but ITR-Develop can't. But it's your list, of course...

Also, I noticed that Graverobber is not really "limited to your hand" since you can gain the whole trash pile (in the $3-$6 price range) with it.
Trading Post and Chapel are missing from the "limited use" category (each "successful" play reduces your hand size at least by 1); and Counting House is another "No use" card.

Thank you, the list isn't perfect, i know...
You are right about Graverobber, it should be removed. Trading Post should be added.

Chapel is a "no use", as the kingdom still has no drawer, which means you will never have more than 4 cards in hand after playing Chapel.

You are right about the empty hand thing. It's more about not reducing your handsize to work, but it doesn't change that there are very few cards that work with it. As i defined the allowed kingdoms as any that include at least one "limited use", putting TR and KC there would seem wrong.
Also you can play with Shelters and trash an Overgrown Estate, which is still "depends" rather than "limited use".

[Holger]

Chapel is a "no use", as the kingdom still has no drawer, which means you will never have more than 4 cards in hand after playing Chapel.

Tactician, Library and Watchtower draw cards.

[NoMoreFun]

Trading Post becomes "trash your hand". A few silvers will disappear from the supply too.

[faust]

Answer for 1)

Possession, and Black Market if there are cards in the BM deck that you don't want to/can't buy (i.e. Potion cost cards). You will always have to reorder the Black Market deck.

Minion might also be a solution - while you're not exactly forced to play it forever, maybe you want a hand of four specific cards at the end, and it takes infinitely long to get there.

Possession might also be a solution for 2) - at least it guarantees you not to lose: You just possess your opponent infinite times, doing nothing every time, he will never be able to play again and thus cannot win.

[Grujah]

1) Oasis?

[Asper]

Chapel is a "no use", as the kingdom still has no drawer, which means you will never have more than 4 cards in hand after playing Chapel.

Tactician, Library and Watchtower draw cards.

Um... You are right... I think that means you actually can have endless turns. ITR, Procession, Library(or WT) and Graverobber are needed, so basically what Holger said... Man...