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Author Topic: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn  (Read 66758 times)

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Voltaire

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f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« on: February 11, 2014, 11:40:48 am »

NOTE: Points/N$ listed here are out-of-date. Refer to the Tracking Spreadsheet for current totals.

Turn Order. Player - Score - N$
1. mail-mi - 2 - 990
2. liopoil - 7 - 990
3. Jack Rudd - 3 - 990
4. EFHW - 0 - 990
5. Jimmmmm - 6 - 1000
6. Voltaire - 4 - 961
7. Grujah - 10 - 970
8. WalrusMcFishSir - 0 - 1000
9. scott_pilgrim - 3 - 1010

Officers
Steward - mail-mi
Cartographer - Grujah
Bureaucrat - Voltaire
Moneylender - liopoil

Game Description, Tracking Spreadsheet

IP Actions (4 IP/turn)
1 - move unit
1 - gain points via adjacency (2 for you, 1 for other)
1 - create unit (if current units = 0)
1 - spawn a treasure chest
1 - assign class to unit
1 - raise unit attribute one level
1 - feed Hungry unit

Rules are here (and will be updated throughout.)

Quote from: the Rules
Immutable Rules (can't be changed (exception: see rule 103))

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; or (2) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

Mutable Rules (Can be changed/amended)

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

Rule Changes and Amendments

303: (mutable) A player may propose up to three rule-changes in a single turn if all such rule-changes are either repeals or transmutations. These rule-changes will be voted on together and will either be all approved or all rejected. The number of votes required for approval will be the minimum required for a single proposed rule-change. This rule takes precedence over any rule allowing only one rule-change per turn.

307. (mutable) At any time, a person not playing may post in-thread that they want to join the game.  They must bold their request to be in.  In the same post, they must choose a color which will personally represent them in this game (referred to as "your color", "player's color", etc.). When this happens, after the current turn is over, they are inserted into the player order by being put in before the player whose turn was just finished.  They start with 0 points.

Colors are chosen by posting in thread a color in the format (Red Value, Green Value, Blue Value), where each Color Value is an integer between 0 and 255. So for example, (0, 0, 0) would be black, (255, 0, 0) would be red, (0, 255, 0) would be green, and so on.

White (255,255,255) may not be chosen as a personal color, nor may colors with all Color Values greater than 200. Players are encouraged to choose colors which are as unique and distinct as possible, and may not choose colors which are too similar to white or previously chosen colors. Whether the color is distinct enough may be settled by judgment if necessary.

317. (mutable) The official currency of f.ds Nomic shall be the Nomic Dollar. The abbreviation for Nomic Dollars shall be N$.

Each player shall have a personal quantity of Nomic Dollars, which shall be listed in the opening post.

318: (mutable) Any player who has never had their personal quantity of Nomic Dollars set immediately has it set to N$1000.

If any former player re-joins the game, their personal quantity of Nomic Dollars is immediately set to either N$1000 or the quantity they had when they last left the game, whichever is lower.

324: (mutable) At the beginning of their turn, a player may post a draft proposal for a rule change. When making the final proposal, he may change some details of the draft but the intention and spirit of the rule must stay the same.

325: (mutable) The active player may make a motion to suspend any number of rules during their turn.  This must be done at the same time as the presentation of the draft proposal(s), and the rules to be suspended must be explicitly named.  Voting on the motion begins immediately, and players must post their votes in the thread, in the format [Yes|No] on Motion to Suspend. The motion passes if two-thirds of the players vote yes, and immediately fails if one-third of the players vote no.  If, after 60 hours, the motion has not passed or failed, players who have not voted are considered not eligible voters on this motion.

If the motion passes, all players (including Judges) must treat the game as though those rules are not in effect, during that turn only, for all purposes including decisions regarding whether a proposal is valid, or whether a move is legal.

If the motion fails, that player may not make another motion to suspend rules during this turn.  Any further drafts of that player's proposal must contain some portion of the original proposal.  If no portion of the original proposal can be retained without suspending the rules, all players are eligible to end the current player's turn; this clause overrides rule 332.

Both mutable and immutable rules may be suspended in this manner, but this rule cannot be suspended by itself.

326: (mutable) The world map consists of a 16x16 grid of square tiles. Rows are named 1-16 from top to bottom, and columns A-P, left to right. Tiles are named by their column and row pair. Synonyms for top, bottom, left and right are north, south, west and east, respectively. A tile is considered directly adjacent to other tiles to its immediate north, south, west and east. A tile is considered diagonally adjacent to other tiles to its immediate south-east, south-west, north-east and north-west.

327: (mutable) Players take turns in player order.

328: (mutable) A turn is over and the next turn simultaneously begins only when a player eligible to end the turn announces it. An announcement to change turns must be bold, and it must mention the next player's name and that it is their turn. Players are only eligible to end the turn if it is explicitly stated by some rule, and if no rule states they're not eligible. This clause takes precedence over any other rule specifying eligibility to end a turn. Whenever a turn ends during voting, the motion voted on automatically fails.

329: (mutable) Players are eligible to end their own turn. If all "mandatory" actions have been taken during a turn, all players are eligible to end the turn.

330: (mutable) If a player has not proposed a rule within 72 hours of the start of their turn, all players are eligible to end the turn. Voting required by any rule and waiting for a Judge to settle an issue do not count towards this time.

332: (mutable) After a player ends a turn, players have 24 hours to invoke Judgement on the issue whether the player ending the turn was eligible to do so. If play continues after the action(s) being Judged occurred, and the Judgement overturns the action(s) taken, play resets to the gamestate immediately prior to the overturned action(s). Otherwise, play will continue from the current gamestate.

333: (mutable) If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then any player may decide to invoke Judgment as follows: They must announce the dispute in question and state at least one proposed resolution. In the same post they must use the forum system to roll a 1d(# of players). The player whose turn number in the opening post corresponds to the number rolled is named the Judge unless this would cause the selection of the player invoking Judgment, a player whose move is being challenged, or a player who has previously been Judge this turn and has been overruled. If one of these cases would occur, the player invoking Judgment must perform another random die roll. If for some reason all players are excluded from being the Judge, then the Judge is selected by the same random die-roll process with no player except the one invoking Judgment excluded.

If the number of players (including whether a particular player is playing) is the issue under dispute, then the die shall be rolled to reflect the larger number of players and the player whose presence in the game is in question shall be excluded from being Judge.

If the turn ordering is the issue under dispute, then the player invoking Judgment will list all players who are playing and assign them numbers for the purpose of determining the Judge. These numbers will be used instead of the turn numbers, but only for the purpose of selecting the Judge.

The player selected as Judge must settle the issue in question. Nobody is eligible to end the turn after Judgment has been invoked, unless the current Judge has settled the issue, and the last time the Judge settled an issue was more than 24 hours ago. Also, nobody is eligible to end the turn during the process of voting to overrule a Judge.

If the Judge has settled an issue in the last 24 hours, any player other than the Judge may open a vote to overrule the Judge. The motion passes if two-thirds of the players vote yes, and fails if more than one-third of the players vote no.  If, after 60 hours, the motion has not passed or failed, players who have not voted are considered not eligible voters on this motion.

If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then a player must select a new Judge in the manner described above, with all players who have been Judge this turn excluded from being the new Judge. The player who originally invoked Judgment is still excluded from being Judge, but the player rolling for a new Judge is not.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

335: (mutable) At the beginning of his or her turn, each player gains four Initiative Points (abbreviated IPs). These IPs may be spent during his or her turn to affect the gamestate in various ways. Spending an IP causes a player's quantity of IPs to be reduced by one, and a player may not spend IPs if it would bring his or her quantity of IPs to less than zero. A player's quantity of IPs may not be changed unless it is explicitly allowed by a rule. The player does not need to spend all of his or her IPs, or any of them if he or she so chooses. If a player attempts to spend IPs in a way which is judged to be against the rules, that player's attempted actions will not succeed, but he will not lose the IPs he attempted to spend in this way.

At the end of each player's turn, his or her quantity of IPs is set to zero, such that IPs may not be saved for future turns.

If he or she has no Units on the World Map, a player may spend one IP to create a Unit of his or her allegiance on any World Map tile that does not already contain a Unit.

To create a Unit in this way, post in thread the following bolded command: Create ##, where ## is the name of the tile where the Unit will be created.

A player may spend one IP to move a Unit of his or her allegiance to a tile which is directly adjacent or diagonally adjacent to its current position. Multiple IPs may be spent in this way each turn, and a Unit may occupy the same tile multiple times in one turn. A player may not attempt to move a Unit to an invalid tile, or to a tile which already contains a Unit.

To move a Unit in this way, post in thread the following bolded command: Move ## to %%, where ## is the name of the tile where the Unit is positioned, and %% is the name of the tile to which the Unit is moving.

336: (mutable) A player may post Give N$x to Y, where x is a positive integer less than or equal to the posting player's current total number of Nomic dollars, and Y is a player name.  If a player does this, then his or her total quantity of Nomic dollars decreases by x, and player Y's total quantity of Nomic dollars increases by x.

337: (mutable) When a player reaches 100 points, they win. When a player wins, they add one Legacy Point (LP) to their Legacy Point total and sets their points to 0. When a player joins the game, they have 0 LPs.

339: (mutable) Immediately after the end of a player's turn, they must, if they are able to, pay an upkeep cost for any units they currently have on the World Map.

The upkeep cost for n units, in Nomic Dollars, is equal to ten times the sum of all integers from 1 to n.

If the player's personal quantity of Nomic Dollars is sufficient to cover the upkeep cost, it is deducted automatically after the end of their turn. Otherwise, nothing is deducted and all of their units are inactive until the end of their next turn.

A player may not give any commands to, or receive any benefits from, an inactive unit.

340: (mutable)  If the current player has a unit directly or diagonally adjacent to another player's unit, the active player may spend one IP to gain two points and the owner of the adjacent unit will gain one point. This process is known as "Proximity". Players may not use one of their own units more than once a turn to earn points via Proximity.  Units may not earn points through Proximity during the turn they are created.

To earn these points, a player must post in thread the following bolded command: Proximity between ## and %%, where ## is the name of the tile their unit is on and %% is the name of the tile the other player's unit is on.

341: (mutable) If a rule amends, repeals, or transmutes an existing rule, the rule it amends, repeals, or transmutes will be removed from the rules at the same time that the new rule takes effect. The portion of the new rule which refers to the act of amending, repealing, or transmuting the existing rule, (such as, but not limited to, "Amend ### to the following:", "Repeal rule ###", "Transmute rule", etc.) will also be removed immediately after the new rule takes effect.

350: (mutable) Game constructs may not be changed unless explicitly permitted in the rules. A game construct is any piece, point, component, flavor, or related item present in the game. Examples include, but are not limited to, points, Legacy Points, Nomic dollars, units, color, etc. A change is the addition, deletion, or alteration of a game construct.

356: (mutable) Once per turn, the current player may spend 1 IP to spawn a treasure chest in any empty location. He does this by posting Treasure chest at ## where ## is the name of the tile where the treasure chest is spawned. This tile cannot be entered by any unit until the end of the turn. Also, units cannot be created on locations with treasure chests or move to locations with treasure chests on the turn they are created. The previous two sentences overrule any rule allowing for such movement or creation.

When the chest is created, the current player rolls 1d200. When a unit enters a location with a chest, the result is added to the player owning that unit's amount of Nomic dollars, and the chest disappears.

358: (mutable) When a rule-change is finalized by the player proposing the rule change, it will be voted on. Eligible voters will vote by posting in thread. Votes should be presented in the form Vote: Yes on rule ---, Vote: No on rule ---, or Vote: Abstain on rule ---(where '---' denotes the proposal number). The player proposing the rule will by default vote yes unless they say otherwise. Once over half of the eligible voters who didn't Vote: Abstain have voted yes, the proposal is passed. Once either half of the eligible voters who didn't Vote: Abstain have voted no, or the player proposing the rule chooses to end the voting, the proposal fails. If a proposal has been in the voting stage for 36 hours or more and has not been resolved, all players who have not yet voted are not considered eligible voters (for this vote). This effectively ends the vote with only players currently voting.

359: (mutable) Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

360: (mutable) Units represent people.  Each unit can have one class and any number of attributes.  Attributes and classes are defined by rules, and should be capitalized.

Classes.  A unit can be placed without a class, or assigned to a class at the time of placement.  Each class has unique abilities.  Assigning a unit to a class costs 1 IP and can be done at any point in the player's turn by posting in bold Assign Unit at ## to X class.  Units can change class, but they lose all their attributes.  Units of different classes are identical when all attributes are at level 0.

This rule defines the classes Farmer and Soldier.  Their special abilities could be reflected in attributes such as skill, productivity, tools, etc.  Farmers are represented on the map by a block "F" in the player's color.  Soldiers are represented on the map by a block "S" in the player's color.

Attributes.   Attributes give units new abilities or increase existing abilities.  Some attributes affect all units the same way, others give abilities specialized to the unit's class.  A unit needs to belong to a class in order to be assigned attributes.  All attributes start at level 0.  Abilities at each level depend on the attribute.  To raise an attribute up a level costs N$25 and 1 IP and can be ordered at any point in the player's turn by posting in bold Unit at ##: Raise X [attribute] to level Y [the next level].  Pay N$25.  Raised attributes take effect immediately, so they can be raised and used in the same turn, including the turn they are placed.  However, any given attribute can only be raised one level per turn per unit. 

This rule defines the attribute Speed (abbreviation Sp.).  Units at level 0 Speed move one space a turn.  All units at level 1 Speed can move 2 spaces per turn, at level 2, 3 spaces per turn, and so forth.  This attribute is currently the same for all classes.

This rule also defines the attribute Skill (abbreviation Sk.).  For Skill, the abilities associated with each level depend on the class of the unit.  Other players' units cannot move into proximity with Soldiers at level 1 skill.  Units that are already adjacent at the time of the attribute raise are not affected until they wish to move to a new square.  Farmers at Skill level 1 get double proximity points. 

Attributes are represented on the map under the unit symbol by small print abbreviations followed by the relevant level.  For example, Sp 1, Sk 2.

361: (mutable) Each unit has an inventory which initially has a capacity of 5 units.
Unless stated otherwise in the rules, each item takes up 1 unit of capacity.

Immediately following the turn of the last player in the player order, each unit which is able to automatically consumes 1 Food from its inventory.
Any unit which does not have any food in its inventory at this time becomes Hungry.
Any Hungry unit which does not have any Food in its inventory at this time is permanently removed from the game.

If a Hungry unit has Food in its inventory, the player who controls it may spend 1 IP and post in bold Feed unit at ##. 1 Food is used up and the unit is no longer Hungry.
This is the only command that can be given to a Hungry unit - it can neither move nor perform any other kind of action.

Whenever a unit is on the map which has never had any Food in its inventory, it immediately gains 2 Food items.

362: (mutable) A player may propose one or more rule changes of any type on their turn.  These rule-changes will be voted on together and will either be all approved or all rejected. The number of votes required for approval will be the minimum required for a single proposed rule-change.  Proposing one or more rule-changes is a "mandatory" action during the turn.

363: (mutable) In order to facilitate accurate and error-free record-keeping, certain Offices will be maintained. Players may occupy any number of Offices concurrently. Players who occupy an Office are known as Officers. The actions of Officers do not constitute official rulings (they may make mistakes), but it is assumed they are making a good-faith effort to be accurate at all times.

Any time there is a vacant Office, an election is immediately triggered. Eligible voters will vote by posting in thread. Votes should be presented in the form "Vote: XX for YY" or Vote: Abstain on YY (where XX refers to the player and YY refers to the office). Once any player has achieved over half of the eligible voters who didn't Vote: Abstain, the election ends and that player wins. If an Office has been in the voting stage for 36 hours or more and has not been resolved, all players who have not yet voted are not considered eligible voters (for this vote). This effectively ends the vote with only players currently voting. The player with the majority of votes wins. In the case of a tie, a second vote will be triggered in which only the tied players are eligible to be voted for. If there is still a tie, the forum's dice roll function will be used. Any player may roll a 1dX (where X represents the number of players tied). The tied players are sorted in alphabetical order and assigned numbers in ascending order to represent them in this roll (if Bob and Alice are tied, a 1d2 is rolled, with 1 representing Alice and 2 representing Bob). The player who wins the die roll wins the election.

During any Office election, no voters are eligible to end the turn. This clause overrides all rules relating to who has authority to end a turn.

Officers may resign at any time by posting "I resign as XX" in bold, where XX refers to the office(s) they hold. This will trigger an election for any vacated Offices.

Officers may be impeached. At any point a player may start an impeachment vote by posting "Impeach: XX" (where XX refers to the player to be impeached). The impeachment vote will last until all players have voted or the current turn ends. If 2/3rds of all players are voting for impeachment at the time the vote ends, the impeachment succeeds. If a player is impeached, an election for any vacated Offices is triggered.

Offices:
  • Steward - the Steward keeps track of the points and Legacy Points accumulated by each player.
  • Cartographer - the Cartographer keeps track of the map and all related aspects of the game.
  • Bureaucrat  - the Bureaucrat  maintains the rule-set.
  • Moneylender - the Moneylender keeps track of each player's money.

In a situation where it is unclear which Officer should be doing the tracking, the Officers should discuss the situation and decide amongst themselves. If they cannot agree, any player may invoke Judgement and the Judge will assign the task to the Officer he deems appropriate.

Officers may keep records wherever they wish (as allowed within the rules), but it is expected that, whenever possible, they will do so using the Google Doc linked in the opening post. The owner of the opening post will do their best to keep it as up-to-date as possible based on the information provided by the Officers, but it should not be relied upon as the most current source of information.

All Officers receive N$10 each time the turn order passes the last player in the player list. If players hold multiple Offices, they receive the appropriate multiple salaries.

364: (mutable) At the beginning of each player's turn, each other player's quantity of IPs is increased by one.

Every player with more than zero IPs may be considered an "active" or "current" player for the purposes of spending IPs. However, a player's quantity of IPs is only set to zero at the end of his or her own turn.

365: (mutable) If a player has a unit with the farmer class on the board, he may spend 1 IP and post the command "Harvest at XX".  If he does, then his farmer unit at XX gains y food into his inventory, and the player pays N$z, where y and z are determined by the farmer's skill level, as determined by the following table:

Code: [Select]
Skill Level     y (amount of food)     z (cost in N$)
1 (or less)     0                      0
2               1                      80
3               1                      50
4               1                      30
5               1                      20
6               1                      10
7               2                      25
8               2                      10
9               3                      15
10              4                      15
11              5                      20
12 (or greater) 5                      0

366: (mutable) Players may spend 1 IP to attack directly or diagonally adjacent players, hereafter known as defending players. To do so, players post Plunder $$ to %% in bold, where $$ is the place of the active player's unit, and the %% is the place of the defending player's unit. Each player will roll Nd6 using the forum's dice rolling feature in response to the attack, where N is the number of the unit's soldier level plus 1. The two highest numbers of each player will be the only dice used. If the defending player roll is higher, nothing happens. If the active player's roll is higher, the defending player must post Give N$250 to Y in bold, where Y is the active player, or Give N$X to Y in bold if the defending player has less than N$250, and X is the rest of the defending player's N$. If the roll is a tie, nothing happens. You may only attack if it is your turn.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 03:52:41 pm by Voltaire »
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Voltaire

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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 11:51:39 am »

Thoughts:
  • Rule 323 onwards on the old list did not have (mutable) after the rule number. I added these in as I believe it was an oversight. If this is in error let me know.
  • I really don't like the idea of a separate list of rules in effect, so I haven't updated it and plan on removing it. If there is sufficient demand, though, I will keep this running as well.
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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 11:54:58 am »

I do prefer having a set of rules that you don't have to sift through paragraphs of crossed-out text to read.
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Voltaire

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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 11:58:40 am »

I do prefer having a set of rules that you don't have to sift through paragraphs of crossed-out text to read.

OK, I guess I'll keep it going. This increased the chance I pass a rule to establish we can just wipe amended/repealed rules off the face of the earth (which would hopefully make everyone happy). Because I know we're going to have situations where we accidentally forget a rule is in effect, or the ordinal numbering thing tricks us again, and the odds go up if everyone is looking at the second list and I've misinterpreted something.
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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 12:05:46 pm »

Yeah, I don't like the whole repealing repeals or amendments thing. Maybe we should have a document listing the whole history of the rules, but for the OP I think it makes much more sense to only list rules that are actually in effect. And by "in effect", I'm including any rules that are redundant because another rules takes precedence. We don't need listed in the OP that a rule was once in effect that limited the number of mutable rules to 25, nor do we need a statement saying that the limitation is no longer in place. If for some reason anyone ever wanted to reinstate the rule, they should just propose the rule again, rather than proposing a repeal of the repeal.
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Voltaire

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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 12:16:13 pm »

Maybe we should have a document listing the whole history of the rules

This sounds like a great way to waste time...I will almost certainly create this.
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florrat

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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 12:58:34 pm »

This sounds like a great way to waste time...I will almost certainly create this.
LOL (actually a real one). Because I can: Give N$1 to Voltaire

Also, I see that I overlooked one thing with my 8-new-rules-turn: Rule 325 still forces a player's turn to end sometimes, without anyone actually saying that it does. This is a low-priority, because it doesn't break anything (AFAIK).
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Voltaire

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Re: f.DS Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 01:02:49 pm »

This sounds like a great way to waste time...I will almost certainly create this.
LOL (actually a real one). Because I can: Give N$1 to Voltaire

Also, I see that I overlooked one thing with my 8-new-rules-turn: Rule 325 still forces a player's turn to end sometimes, without anyone actually saying that it does. This is a low-priority, because it doesn't break anything (AFAIK).

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Also, to add to that low-priority fix, 325 also currently refers to 323 which doesn't exist anymore. This also doesn't break anything, but is another piece of 325 that we need to patch up at some point.
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Voltaire

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 03:58:47 pm »

I am in the process of re-reading the old threads, and I realized our tracking sheet didn't have mail-mi on it as a former player, who was definitely in the game at one point. Because the fun of this game is following the rules, I added him to the list of former players.
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florrat

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 05:26:35 pm »

AFAIK (but I only joined late, so I'm not completely sure), mail-mi only organized it and moderated the OP of thread 1. He never actually played, he didn't vote and it was never his turn.
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Voltaire

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 05:28:06 pm »

AFAIK (but I only joined late, so I'm not completely sure), mail-mi only organized it and moderated the OP of thread 1. He never actually played, he didn't vote and it was never his turn.

Actually, he intended to mod and play at the same time. He was in the initial player order, and turn 1 was underway before he resigned.

I doubt this will ever matter, but it is correct based on my understanding.
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liopoil

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 05:43:10 pm »

I'm a bit behind on what the current rules are... I'll read them eventually. any suggestions?
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Voltaire

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2014, 05:47:26 pm »

I'm a bit behind on what the current rules are... I'll read them eventually. any suggestions?

Administrative choices, if you want to be boring:

1. Make it so that when someone wins, they get a Legacy point and the game continues.*
2. Clean up 325 (refers to a turn ending without anyone ending it and refers to a non-existent rule)

*not really an administrative fix, but something there seems to be support for

There are very few of these left, florrat did a great job of cleaning up the messy stuff.
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florrat

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2014, 05:56:21 pm »

If you want a new feature:

[shameless plug]
- About what we can do with pieces (or units) on the map: I was thinking of the following future rule (but anyone else has to suggest it if they like it, since it'll take a while before it's my turn again).
Once during your own turn you may choose to place a treasure chest on the board. Doing so costs nothing, and it will appear in a random location (roll 2d16). The first player who gets to that location gains a random amount of N$ (for example a random number between N$100 and N$200).
It's simple, it provides an income, and I think it will feel like we're actually doing something. (if you can move during opponent's turns, active players will be rewarded more because they can move first. Not sure whether that is a feature or a bug).
[/shameless plug]

EDIT: To make it a little less shameless, some other proposed new features:
-Houses
-Recourses/Occupations/Cooperation
-Unit upkeep

Do we maybe want to add a page in the tracking spreadsheet, and add proposed new features and/or pending administrative fixes?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 06:01:10 pm by florrat »
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mail-mi

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 07:53:03 pm »

I am in the process of re-reading the old threads, and I realized our tracking sheet didn't have mail-mi on it as a former player, who was definitely in the game at one point. Because the fun of this game is following the rules, I added him to the list of former players.
you mean the list of current players?

official: /in
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I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

Voltaire

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 08:30:39 pm »

I am in the process of re-reading the old threads, and I realized our tracking sheet didn't have mail-mi on it as a former player, who was definitely in the game at one point. Because the fun of this game is following the rules, I added him to the list of former players.
you mean the list of current players?

official: /in

Wooooooo! mail-mi, you'll officially join the game after lio's turn. You'll be between scott_pilgrim and lio in the turn order (correct me if I got this wrong anyone).

Also, the Google Doc now includes a tab called "Rule History," a record of every proposal and suspension vote (judgement votes are not included, because god it's impossible to tell which ones actually happened). This is meant as a historical/fun document and is not official in any way. While creating it, I used the guiding principle of "what we thought happened" to tally votes (as I'm sure you all know, sometimes stuff got murky). The final vote tallies as I see them, as a result, might not be unanimously agreed to. I take this to be similar to when a political body takes a "voice vote" - (usually) everyone agrees what the outcome was, the specific numbers are harder to track. That said, they should always be pretty close.

Let me know if you spot any errors.
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liopoil

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2014, 08:49:43 pm »

Create Unit on L12
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Jimmmmm

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2014, 09:10:05 pm »

What about this (not necessarily for this turn, but in general): When a rule is amended, any other rules that directly refer to the amended rule are altered to refer to the amended rule.

Could this cause unexpected things to happen?
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liopoil

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2014, 09:11:04 pm »

Draft of proposal 337:
Quote
The amount of points each player has may not revealed publicly. Players may claim to have a certain number of points, but they may lie. When a player is awarded points they must keep track of their own points somewhere that they can later show to the other players, such as a Quicktopic. Players are expected to play fairly and not cheat when it comes to this. In the case that everyone knows how many points the player was awarded due to the nature of the method of point-gaining, that may be tracked. When a player gets 100 points, they must reveal that they have reached 100 points and show where they kept track of their points, claim their victory, and get a legacy point. Legacy points are displayed publicly. When a player gets a legacy point their points are reset to 0.

The purpose of the hidden points is so when a player comes close to winning we don't just pass a rule taking their points away, or something similar if we make a rule against it. We should make it so not everyone knows when someone gets points or not. One way to do this would be to randomize how many points a player gets when they do get points, and the player getting points does this randomization. It might be not worth the work to do this, but it seems the best way to me for us to make people actually sometimes win.
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Voltaire

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2014, 09:14:10 pm »

I...don't see how that can actually ever work. Won't people, if trusted to randomize, just invent whatever number they want and claim they used random.org? And since right now points are public (and will probably remain that way), it seems kinda pointless.

I personally would prefer just changing the definition of "win" to "get a Legacy point, points to 0, game continues".
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Jimmmmm

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2014, 09:15:30 pm »

Another option would be just to create a rule that disallows any proposal that directly affects points, and maybe makes it impossible for anyone to lose points. Just to be sure, we could make it immutable, so that it can only be changed by a unanimous vote.

Another idea is that we could somehow award points to people who somehow assist other people, which would encourage working together. Obviously people are going to be less inclined to be helped by those who are winning, but that's probably okay.
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liopoil

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2014, 09:20:57 pm »

@Voltaire: two things... 1: people are supposed to not cheat, 2: there must be away to make people prove they did it randomly... does quicktopic have a randomization function?

@Jimmmmm: Sure, but there will always be a way to stop that player... pass a rule that skips their turn, kills off their units or whatever it is that is helping them win, etc. And even if we have a rule that you can't have a rule that specifically references a player we can still say things like "all players whose color is green" or "who has 93 points" or "who goes 7th in the turn order" or "who has a unit in J3".
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Jimmmmm

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2014, 09:26:05 pm »

Hmm, well we could make a list of things that are prohibited: losing points, forcing someone to skip their turn, proposing a rule that directly removes things from the map.

I don't know, I guess that nature of the game when you have majority rules is that the masses are always capable of rising up against those who are winning.
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florrat

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2014, 09:34:07 pm »

If "winning the game" 'just' gives 1 legacy point, then I don't think we will all try to prevent our hardest to let someone else not win. I do not like the idea of hidden scores.
A rule introducing legacy points must also take into consideration that someone can win via rule 213 (for example by going back to an earlier game state).

@Jimmmmm: In addition to what liopoil said, "any proposal that directly affects points" is pretty vague. A rule saying something like "When a player achieves X they gain 10 points" affects point pretty directly.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: f.ds Nomic 1 (Thread 3): liopoil's turn
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2014, 09:52:03 pm »

@Jimmmmm: In addition to what liopoil said, "any proposal that directly affects points" is pretty vague. A rule saying something like "When a player achieves X they gain 10 points" affects point pretty directly.

Be less vague when actually proposing then. But you get the point.
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