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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition  (Read 56576 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2014, 08:54:37 am »
0

getting through all cards with duel mode equals ~ 200*ld(256) = 1600 duels. if you spend 5 sec thinking for each duel, that's 8000 sec ~ two and a half hour. and that's assuming ld(n)*n, when in reality all sorting algorithms need more than that.

unless you already sorted all individual lists and it takes that into accout. don't know how much that would change.
I spent about 1 sec thinking for each duel.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2014, 03:06:41 pm »
0

I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.

Care to guess?
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2014, 03:14:07 pm »
0

I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.

Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2014, 04:09:21 pm »
+1

I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.

Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?

Explorer and Scavenger?

You could think any card is good...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2014, 05:47:26 pm »
0

I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.

Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?

Explorer and Scavenger?

You could think any card is good...
Exactly. They might also be Alchemist and Procession, respectively.

In my ranking, I ranked Procession directly  below Alchemist. I ranked Alchemist at the position:
One position lower than the difference between where you ranked Quarry and where I ranked it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2014, 06:53:35 pm »
+6

I think I put quarry somewhere in the top 60. That's not gonna be a common sentiment. Also, my number 1 and number 2 were neither Rebuild nor trashers. Those were basically 3-7, but there are two and only two cards that I can honestly say exceed those.

Care to guess?
Cultist and Tournament?

Explorer and Scavenger?

You could think any card is good...
Exactly. They might also be Alchemist and Procession, respectively.

In my ranking, I ranked Procession directly  below Alchemist. I ranked Alchemist at the position:
One position lower than the difference between where you ranked Quarry and where I ranked it.

However Quarry doesn't like to be next to Moat. Moat is taller than Procession, but not as tall as Jester. Tunnel does not live in a yellow house and either has a dog or a bird as a pet.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2014, 01:18:57 am »
0

Goons and Wharf, actually. The second works well in the two most common deck types (engine and BM) while Goons's extra victory points make it something of a soft counter to Rebuild, as well as being dominant in its own right.

Markusin, did you put quarry near the bottom? I can't see Alchemist being too high up there, and if it's at position 100 or so, quarry must be at about 150.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 01:20:33 am by JacquesTheBard »
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2014, 06:47:24 am »
0

Goons and Wharf, actually. The second works well in the two most common deck types (engine and BM) while Goons's extra victory points make it something of a soft counter to Rebuild, as well as being dominant in its own right.

Markusin, did you put quarry near the bottom? I can't see Alchemist being too high up there, and if it's at position 100 or so, quarry must be at about 150.
I suspected Goons and Wharf might be on top. Those two are very high on my list.

I really did put Alchemist at about 100. This means I put Quarry at about 160, where it's most likely underrated. It's just, I think there are 160 cards above it.

I don't feel like arguing about it now and don't feel like divulging any more info about my list. Let's save that for when the results are revealed.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2014, 11:38:01 am »
0

I think I am overrating several cards that I want to be better than they are.

I'm also rating some cards high because they're so much better in the format I mostly play, like Contraband, Counting House, and P. Stone. I'm less upset about that, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2014, 04:12:23 pm »
+2

About 3-quarters through dueling mode, I was frustrated that my list didn't make any sense. But when I was finished, I was definitely happy with it. I like the way it sorted the cards. I value Harem very high apparently.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2014, 11:18:45 pm »
+2

i just wanted to request that when the rankings come out, you allow us to log in to the website and see our rankings placed alongside the final result, preferably with a Spearman rank correlation between the two.  ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearman's_rank_correlation_coefficient )
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easwaran

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2014, 12:03:05 pm »
0

For future reference, someone at Cornell already created an algorithm that allows people to submit ranked lists and then uses Condorcet's method for generating an aggregate list:
http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/
It will definitely save you a lot of work, and it's a bit of a nicer interface for creating the rankings (though it doesn't have the "duel" option).
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Jack Rudd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2014, 12:03:52 pm »
0

Which particular Condorcet method? There are tons of Condorcet methods.
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Alexmf

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2014, 03:22:39 pm »
+1

Thank you for putting the effort in again, Qvist!

I'm already looking forward to the rankings.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2014, 03:58:24 pm »
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Is it possible to only rank cards of some price categories, but not all prices? E.g. I've only ranked $5 and $6+ cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2014, 05:35:17 pm »
0

Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.

Same ! I didnt finish -- please dont count mine
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2014, 01:17:57 am »
+5

First of all, I would like to give a big thanks to Qvist for coordinating all of the effort that goes into compiling these lists!!  I am looking forward to seeing the final results.  I am new to this forum, and relatively new to Dominion.  I discovered the physical card game a couple years ago, but only began playing online about a year ago at Goko, and unfortunately never had the experience of playing on Isotropic.  I can tell you that as a new player working my way up through first the Adventures and then Multiplayer to learn all the expansions, the information on the Qvist rankings and all of the great strategy descriptions on the cards were absolutely invaluable to me.  They have made the game much more interesting and fun, and have made me a better player...although I still have a long way to go to match some of the senior level players on this forum!

So I was happy to be able to participate in giving input for this ranking.  I found that the exercise of evaluating the relative worth of the cards really made me think, and more importantly caused me to re-evalutate some of the cards I don't use as often.  Overall it was fun and illuminating!!

A couple questions I have are:

1)  Will the 2014 rankings just be published by card cost, or will there also be a summary ranking of All Cards as there was in the entry list?  I'm not sure how many people actually took the time to rank all the cards independent of cost.  I myself did that, but found it a challenging task which took many hours of consideration and rethinking.  If I could choose how I would like to see the final result, it would be something like a spreadsheet where you could choose to filter and sort the cards ranked by various attributes such as:  Card Cost, All Cards, Expansion Set, etc...and maybe even more discrete attributes like Victory Cards, Attack Cards etc...

2)  Will I be able to access my final lists and print or save them after the compilation is complete?

And finally, here are a few of my random thoughts and observations from the ranking process:

- The duel method didn't work as well as I hoped.  I went through it all, and the next day I looked at it again and realized many of the rankings didn't make sense.  It was not possible to use the duel to get them in the order I felt they belonged, so I went back to manual method, and found that I was waking up with fresh ideas every day that caused me to tweak the order for about 5 days or so.

- Also, during the duels, I found the site was painfully slow (as in minutes) to respond, and I had to reload the page about every 2 or 3 duels.  When I did the manual ranking it was not as much of an issue.

- Overall I found most of my rankings to be similar to what had been done in the past, but I had a lot of fun considering where the Guilds cards belong...  I love the flexibility of spending coin tokens on future turns when needed, and I think that there are a number of Guilds cards which should rank pretty high.  And probably some of the more esoteric Dark Ages cards may move up as well.

But there were a few areas where I probably diverged from the crowd...

- Maybe I'm still too new a player, but overall I have always found the villages to be underrated.  Sure, they are not the top ranked cards, but when I consider how many of my top ranked cards are terminal actions, I realized that I would never be able to play more than one of those in a turn if it was not for villages or variants which supply +2 Actions.  This resulted in me bumping up the most of the Villages a bit...not to the top, but mostly above the middle of the pack.

- Likewise, although I will often buy a curser or witch variant as soon as possible (because they definitely can be powerful), I sometimes think they are just a little overrated.  Too many times I have seen Montebank just become a terminal silver because someone can discard a curse (especially in 3 or 4 person games).  I'm just not a fan of Young Witch much at all since often there is a valuable Bane which protects, and sometimes I won't even buy a single one if there is Remake or another trasher in the mix.  And Sea Hag is never worth more than one for me unless I have a trasher to get rid of it later.  For me, I have found my highest win rates among cursers usually occur with Ill Gotten Gains because of the ability to give out a curse almost every turn as opposed to every deck cycle with a Witch type card.  But then I may still have more to learn ; )

- It was hard to rank gainer type cards like Stonemason which may not do a lot during mid-game except perhaps trashing curses, but allow for a quick way to gain 2 cards costing $4 or $5 early in the game, and are very strong end game for trashing Golds to get 2 Duchies.  Similar thoughts apply to several of the Hinterlands cards with on-gain effects.

- I probably struggled the most with some of the exotic cards from Dark Ages which I have not played as much.  It caused me to go back and rethink whether I should more often be buying cards like Count, Hermit, Procession, Rats etc...

- My personal favorite card?  I thought it would be King's Court or Goons or Grand Market, but as of this moment I'm leaning towards Governor...even if perhaps the others may be ranked higher.  Yes it gives the opponent a benefit, but the versatility and power of the card is pretty awesome...especially if chained together with some buys.


P.S.  In addition to thanking Qvist for his efforts, I would like very much to thank all the good folks on this forum who have contributed to the write-ups and strategy articles for the individual cards.  They have been an amazing help to me!
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GwinnR

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2014, 03:18:32 am »
0

Me too wants to thank Qvist for the great job, he's doing here. This is a lot work to make these lists, just to inform us about the strenght of the cards and to make us happy ;-)

I really enjoyed the duell-mode. I found it much more easy (and funny!) to compare them like this. In the beginning I was afraid of the result as I saw the ranking beside the duells. But in the end, after making all duells the ranking is as I think it should be.

And I would be happy, if you could show us the ranking with all cards, because some cards a much higher or lower ranked as their costs. And we can't see that if we only get the lists sorted by the costs. If this is possible and not too much work for you, it would be great to have this.
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Alexmf

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2014, 04:47:43 am »
0

Frankly spoken, given the method I and probably many people used to sort the cards (duel mode, separated cards by cost), it is just not possible to put together a complete list because there a comparison between cards with different cost never occurred. E.g., if I put Chapel > all other $1-2 cost cards and Ambassador > all other $3 cost cards, there is no way to determine whether Chapel > Ambassador or Ambassador > Chapel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2014, 05:07:15 am »
0

Frankly spoken, given the method I and probably many people used to sort the cards (duel mode, separated cards by cost), it is just not possible to put together a complete list because there a comparison between cards with different cost never occurred. E.g., if I put Chapel > all other $1-2 cost cards and Ambassador > all other $3 cost cards, there is no way to determine whether Chapel > Ambassador or Ambassador > Chapel.
I know. But if enough people made the whole list thing, it would work.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2014, 07:19:42 am »
0

...

I think you have much to learn young padawan :)

But welcome! And, I used to be like you, until I played against amazing players. I have learned a lot.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2014, 03:28:04 pm »
+3

Is it possible to only rank cards of some price categories, but not all prices? E.g. I've only ranked $5 and $6+ cards.

Will you be counting partially completed lists? (Like if someone ranked the $2s but not the other costs). I logged on and ranked a couple lists just to see how the thing works and give my opinions, but since I am not really familiar with Guilds, and also haven't played a lot of Dominion since Iso went away, it's probably best if you just ignore my submissions.

Same ! I didnt finish -- please dont count mine

I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120.  :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.


1)  Will the 2014 rankings just be published by card cost, or will there also be a summary ranking of All Cards as there was in the entry list?  I'm not sure how many people actually took the time to rank all the cards independent of cost.  I myself did that, but found it a challenging task which took many hours of consideration and rethinking.  If I could choose how I would like to see the final result, it would be something like a spreadsheet where you could choose to filter and sort the cards ranked by various attributes such as:  Card Cost, All Cards, Expansion Set, etc...and maybe even more discrete attributes like Victory Cards, Attack Cards etc...

2)  Will I be able to access my final lists and print or save them after the compilation is complete?

And finally, here are a few of my random thoughts and observations from the ranking process:

- The duel method didn't work as well as I hoped.  I went through it all, and the next day I looked at it again and realized many of the rankings didn't make sense.  It was not possible to use the duel to get them in the order I felt they belonged, so I went back to manual method, and found that I was waking up with fresh ideas every day that caused me to tweak the order for about 5 days or so.

- Also, during the duels, I found the site was painfully slow (as in minutes) to respond, and I had to reload the page about every 2 or 3 duels.  When I did the manual ranking it was not as much of an issue.

The lists will be published by card cost as before. At the end I will post a list of all the cards ignoring cost.
You can still login on the website to see your ranking.
Well, the duel mode works fine. If you did it until the "no new duel available" message appeared, then the list is finished. This means that the app could calculate a error-free list from your votes. If there's something that looks different than you think it should look like, then you made the wrong decisions in the duels. Well, there was a bug that showed the "no new duel available" message too early, but that should be fixed since a while.
Sorry if the page was slow. In my tests that never ocurred to me. Not sure why that happened to you. Maybe a lot of people voted at the same time, just guessing. Sorry.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2014, 03:51:50 pm »
+1


I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120.  :o


That is great news! Well, it probably means more work for you, so possibly not great in that way  ::), but I think in regard to Dominion and the community here that is a very positive sign concerning the future.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2014, 04:01:02 pm »
+2

Wow, 120 submissions! I'm really looking forward to the lists.

Btw, one comment (feel free to completely ignore it). In the past lists you've focused a lot on outliers in votes. You note what the highest and lowest votes are for each card, and you often also comment on it (for example: this card got so-and-so many #1 votes, but also so one last rank vote). I think these observations have next-to-zero informational content. So some player completely over/under-rates this card, or perhaps they saved a list which was only half-finished (and then forgot to complete it). I'd much rather see the first and third quartile (and perhaps the 10th and 90th percentile).

Other than that, I really enjoy all list. Thanks for making them!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2014, 04:08:58 pm »
0

I'm currently checking the lists. I had a lot of submissions, more than 120.  :o
So, I'm inclined to count partially completed lists as most of the lists were completed and the few partially completed lists won't change a lot.
But if you really don't want that I count your submission, just tell me, then I will ignore your votes.

Mine aren't finished yet, but I plan to do so before midnight. If I'm already too late please ignore my votes.

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