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[brokoli]

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Market Square, Death Cart, Gardens, Ironworks, Salvager, Explorer, Laboratory, Saboteur, Expand, King's Courthttp://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140208/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1391860845112.txt

Very interesting game against Yed. It seems that the rush win, but as I said at the end of the game, I'm still not convinced.

Yed's argument was that the rush doesn't care about points, so my saboteur doesn't hurt that much. But still, don't you think that I can catch up in points before the 3 pile ending ? With KC + Death cart and 1 salvager, I can Double-Colony quite easily. Additionally, I think I have made some mistakes : going too early for King's Court instead of focusing on lab and saboteur, for example…

So, do you think that the engine can win here ?

[WanderingWinder]

No.

Well, to be more clear, I don't think an engine can consistently win against a well-played rush here.

Saboteur isn't going to help the engine much, I agree with Yed. It actually helps the rush player to pile out faster, unless you're quite quite lucky. Death Cart helps the rush player quite a bit, and if engine needs to go for it, that is not good in getting the game to last long enough for you....


Of course, odds are somebody is going to come in and post an amazing goldfished engine game per normal.

[yed]

Also note that the rush with 4/3 would be at least one turn quicker then with my 5/2.

[DG]

There are a few problems with how you played it. An opening salvager is a risk in shelters kingdoms that have a key cards at 5 coins, such as the laboratory. You'll need to buy some 3 and 4 cost cards and those need to be market squares so you can avoid those silvers and the death cart, just to get the deck trimmed. If you can use massive card gaining through kings' court-expand action to finish then the vp escalation for getting your own deck right should be massive, far more than the vp damage you can do with saboteurs.

[dondon151]

There are a few problems with how you played it. An opening salvager is a risk in shelters kingdoms that have a key cards at 5 coins, such as the laboratory.

He has to take this risk. Well, more specifically, he has to open with Salvager to pare down his deck ASAP, and Salvager/Silver still hits $5 rather frequently.

Death Cart is a mistake. There's already strong drawing with KC/Lab, and it's very easy to pair up Salvager and/or Expand with MS to gain lots of Gold quickly and use them.

EDIT: I think the biggest problem that the engine has to contend with is that the rush can pile out slightly more quickly on IW, Gardens, and Ruins by gaining Death Carts and also score more points in the process. I tried the rush and got 40 VP in 14-15 turns while the engine can score >40 VP on turn 14 with fair luck. But unless someone can shave the engine down to 13 turns consistently, I'd probably prefer rush in a vacuum.

(Disclaimer: I've gotten quite a bit worse at Dominion.)