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itchiko

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Attack against other attacks
« on: February 03, 2014, 04:11:42 pm »
0

I have seen a lot of posts saying that you should not design a fan card that will punish other player for playing attacks.
The reasoning behind it being that by having such a card on the board the other player would not buy an attack cards in the first place thus prevent interaction and leads to less interesting boards instead of creating interaction.

But i am a little obstinate so i will try my version of it anyway ^^

Poisoner
Action - Duration - Attack
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.


The exact wording may need to be refined but i think the concept is clear.

Why do i think that would work:
1) It is a duration and not a reaction so you have to play it beforehand and you opponent knows that the effect will be there for that turn.
2) It doesn't prevent the attack for that turn, the penalty for playing the attack is only seen on the next shuffle.
3) Mostly because it is an attack card itself. Being a duration it even kill the opponent poisoner played the turn before so that if you want to play that attack card you should go and grab the poisoner for yourself.

So what do you think. Should i move that idea in the bad card idea thread or is viable?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 04:23:07 pm »
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Poisoner
Action - Duration - Attack
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.

It's got tracking issues with Moat and Lighthouse. You have to remember if you successfully blocked the attack by the time your turn comes around.

Also, it has the "bad ratio" issue that most "Reaction that hurts the attacker"-type cards have. You're only "attacking" the player of the attack instead of all other players. With this on the table, I'd rather forgo Attack cards rather than have them be either dead or one-shots. The fact that Poisoner is just a terminal Silver when not trashing Attacks seals the deal. I can make your Poisoners worse by not buying Attack cards.

I think it might work better if it also had some sort of attack effect that worked regardless of whether your opponent is playing Attack cards. That way you're incentivized to buy one even if the opponents don't have any Attack cards. That may in turn incentivize them to buy Poisoners. I haven't thought it through that thoroughly, though. (Dang, that was an unintentional tongue-twister.)
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itchiko

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 04:40:45 pm »
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Poisoner
Action - Duration - Attack
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.

It's got tracking issues with Moat and Lighthouse. You have to remember if you successfully blocked the attack by the time your turn comes around.

Also, it has the "bad ratio" issue that most "Reaction that hurts the attacker"-type cards have. You're only "attacking" the player of the attack instead of all other players. With this on the table, I'd rather forgo Attack cards rather than have them be either dead or one-shots. The fact that Poisoner is just a terminal Silver when not trashing Attacks seals the deal. I can make your Poisoners worse by not buying Attack cards.

I think it might work better if it also had some sort of attack effect that worked regardless of whether your opponent is playing Attack cards. That way you're incentivized to buy one even if the opponents don't have any Attack cards. That may in turn incentivize them to buy Poisoners. I haven't thought it through that thoroughly, though. (Dang, that was an unintentional tongue-twister.)

Ok that's fair enough remarks.

For tracking issue i think they are actually more easy than you think. If you have a Moat in your hand at the start of the turn you know you are protected for that turn. same for lighthouse you know at the beginning of any turn if you are under poisoner for that turn or not.

But you are right that it needs to be good enough in its own right to warrant playing it in the first place especially if its the only attack in the kingdom.
And actually since it is a risky card by design we can probably go a little overboard for a 4 cost card with it.

So i would say either the boring way:

    Boring Poisoner
    Action - Duration - Attack
    Cost 4$

    +3$
    Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.


Or the more crazy way:

    Serial Poisoner
    Action - Duration - Attack
    Cost 4$

    +2$
    Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Attack card. Discard the other cards then play the attack card.
    Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.

I think i really like that last version ^^ but i am probably craaaazy
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LastFootnote

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 04:47:46 pm »
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But you are right that it needs to be good enough in its own right to warrant playing it in the first place especially if its the only attack in the kingdom.
And actually since it is a risky card by design we can probably go a little overboard for a 4 cost card with it.

So i would say either the boring way:

    Boring Poisoner
    Action - Duration - Attack
    Cost 4$

    +3$
    Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.


Or the more crazy way:

    Serial Poisoner
    Action - Duration - Attack
    Cost 4$

    +2$
    Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Attack card. Discard the other cards then play the attack card.
    Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.

I think i really like that last version ^^ but i am probably craaaazy

Wow, both of those seem really overpowered. +$3 for $4, by itself, is almost certainly way too strong. And boring, as you say.

Serial Poisoner is essentially an activated Conspirator that always draws an Attack card. And if these are the only Attack card in you deck, playing one plays all of them that aren't in your hand. For $4. Even at a cost of $6, that seems nuts.

And none of that even counts the poisoner mechanic.
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itchiko

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 04:55:28 pm »
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Wow, both of those seem really overpowered. +$3 for $4, by itself, is almost certainly way too strong. And boring, as you say.

Serial Poisoner is essentially an activated Conspirator that always draws an Attack card. And if these are the only Attack card in you deck, playing one plays all of them that aren't in your hand. For $4. Even at a cost of $6, that seems nuts.

And none of that even counts the poisoner mechanic.

Too be honest they probably are. I think +3$ is probably too luck based as an opening anyway. and the chaining version should only look in a set number of card on top of the deck (i would say 4). But you have to take into account that they get killed by other players poisoner. So that if the effect needs to be around a 5 cost cards at the least for you to buy them in the first place.

Anyway that was just idle thought, i was just wandering if someone at looked into that direction yet ^^
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LastFootnote

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 05:11:32 pm »
+1

Anyway that was just idle thought, i was just wandering if someone at looked into that direction yet ^^

Well, I started this thread a while ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10122.0

The version I'm going to test next looks like this:

Quote
Recruiter
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+$1. Gain a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile, putting it on top of your deck.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, gain a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile, putting it into your hand.

Quote
Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +$2. Return this to the Conscripts pile. Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. If he did not discard any cards, he gains a Curse.

It doesn't have the bad ratio because you're attacking all other players, not just the attacker. I decided to try a top that also gains Conscripts so that others will have incentive to buy Recruiters in order to take advantage of yours.

I haven't had the chance to test it yet, though. Who knows if it'll work out.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 05:12:35 pm by LastFootnote »
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itchiko

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 05:18:18 pm »
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Nice. I like your version too. I hope it will test well.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 05:20:21 pm »
0

Nice. I like your version too. I hope it will test well.

Thanks.

Have you considered trying Serial Poisoner at +$1 rather than +$2? I think that has a better shot at working out.
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itchiko

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 05:25:51 pm »
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True that makes it way less overpower while still being quite unique. i like that.

I think i should rename it Serial Killer or even Dexter too :D
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heron

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2014, 05:52:42 pm »
+6

Here's the tweak I would make:

Poisoner
Action - Duration
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.
—————————
When this card is in the supply, attack cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

I think this would just make for a crazy game. The idea is that the attacks are basically turned into oneshots. Maybe the attacks would be too cheap at $2 less and it should be $1 less.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 06:00:31 pm »
0

Here's the tweak I would make:

Poisoner
Action - Duration
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.
—————————
When this card is in the supply, attack cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

I think this would just make for a crazy game. The idea is that the attacks are basically turned into oneshots. Maybe the attacks would be too cheap at $2 less and it should be $1 less.

This…is…awesome. I wish I'd thought of it.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 08:09:06 pm »
0

Here's the tweak I would make:

Poisoner
Action - Duration
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.
—————————
When this card is in the supply, attack cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

I think this would just make for a crazy game. The idea is that the attacks are basically turned into oneshots. Maybe the attacks would be too cheap at $2 less and it should be $1 less.

Making it terminal turns the game weeeeeeeeird. I like not making it an Attack itself--if it's an Attack, you run the risk of both players killing each other's Poisoners, after which the winner of Poisoner attrition has a huge edge, and anyone facing no Poisoners can put together some ridiculous attack chains.
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Awaclus

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2014, 09:03:10 pm »
0

The problem with this is that in a game with no Attacks, it's almost strictly worse than Silver. I think that the bonus should be something that would sometimes make you buy the card even if no Attacks are present - if you want to make it even crazier, I would suggest the Workshop effect.
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AJD

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2014, 11:05:37 pm »
0

The problem with this is that in a game with no Attacks, it's almost strictly worse than Silver.

Conspirator is strictly worse than Silver in a game with no non-terminals. (But there are more games without Attacks than without non-terminals, it's true.)
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Asper

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 06:14:53 pm »
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For tracking issue i think they are actually more easy than you think. If you have a Moat in your hand at the start of the turn you know you are protected for that turn. same for lighthouse you know at the beginning of any turn if you are under poisoner for that turn or not.

Just some points:
  • Moat only protects you if you reveal it when another player plays an attack card. Having it in hand at the start of my turn doesn't mean i revealed it. For example somebody could have played a Council Room or Minion.
  • Also even in the absence of such cards i don't have to reveal Moat. In a six player game where everybody has Moat, can you always recall who revealed Moat and who just has it in hand now? For an example where not revealing Moat could be a wise choice, think of Cultist. Cases where this comes together with hand changes will be especially fun.
  • By the way, if you play the card while being Possessed, do you intend it to hurt yourself? By the rules this shouldn't work under the attack type (as you are not "another player" when you play it).

Still, there is a way to do it: Mark players who were hit, and - if it matters - how often. The overdoing variant to do this is give them tokens, but letting them set aside cards works, too. Of course that approach works best for discard attacks or junkers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 06:18:34 pm »
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By the way, if you play the card while being Possessed, do you intend it to hurt yourself? By the rules this shouldn't work under the attack type (as you are not "another player" when you play it).

Not sure what you mean by this.  When you possess someone, you do not play their cards.  They are still playing their own cards and it is still their turn.  It's just that you get to see everything they do and give them "advice" that they can't refuse.
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Asper

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 07:03:52 pm »
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By the way, if you play the card while being Possessed, do you intend it to hurt yourself? By the rules this shouldn't work under the attack type (as you are not "another player" when you play it).

Not sure what you mean by this.  When you possess someone, you do not play their cards.  They are still playing their own cards and it is still their turn.  It's just that you get to see everything they do and give them "advice" that they can't refuse.

Well... I know that. The reason i asked was that it seems duration attacks are often misinterpreted as a way of making an attack possible that hurts "while it is in play" instead of affecting you on play (Itchiko's answer to LastFootnote's question shows this a bit). Possession shows it can't work this way and that "until your next turn" and "other player" are not necessarily tightly connected. I probably worded my concern poorly.


I also missed to point out that if a "duration" attack is properly made (like i proposed, by marking), it doesn't actually need a duration type. Here's an example for how i think it should work:

Ghost Light, Attack
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player gains a Copper and sets it aside face-up. At the start of his next turn, if he has any Coppers set aside this way, he discards down to three cards and puts those Coppers in his hand.

Edit: By the way, the reason i made up another card was to illustrate a way how you can mark a player without the use of tokens. I couldn't find one for Poisoner.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 07:20:56 pm by Asper »
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Kirian

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2014, 10:04:04 pm »
0

Here's the tweak I would make:

Poisoner
Action - Duration
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.
—————————
When this card is in the supply, attack cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

I think this would just make for a crazy game. The idea is that the attacks are basically turned into oneshots. Maybe the attacks would be too cheap at $2 less and it should be $1 less.

This…is…awesome. I wish I'd thought of it.

I'll open Goons/Village, and likely get away with an attack before your Poisoner hits the board.  Or better, I'll open Witch/Poisoner...

No.  This is too huge.
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Asper

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2014, 07:04:36 am »
0

Here's the tweak I would make:

Poisoner
Action - Duration
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.
—————————
When this card is in the supply, attack cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

I think this would just make for a crazy game. The idea is that the attacks are basically turned into oneshots. Maybe the attacks would be too cheap at $2 less and it should be $1 less.

This…is…awesome. I wish I'd thought of it.

I'll open Goons/Village, and likely get away with an attack before your Poisoner hits the board.  Or better, I'll open Witch/Poisoner...

No.  This is too huge.

You bought a Militia for 4$ and all you got was an additional +1 buy, +1/2 VP. That's not game-warping at all. Witch for 3$ is nice, but as you will probably lose it again soon it's not that good either.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 07:08:08 am by Asper »
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KingZog3

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Re: Attack against other attacks
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2014, 12:55:08 pm »
0

Here's the tweak I would make:

Poisoner
Action - Duration
Cost 4$

+2$
Until the beginning of your next turn, each time an other player discard an attack card from play: Trash it.
—————————
When this card is in the supply, attack cards cost $2 less, but not less than $0.

I think this would just make for a crazy game. The idea is that the attacks are basically turned into oneshots. Maybe the attacks would be too cheap at $2 less and it should be $1 less.

This…is…awesome. I wish I'd thought of it.

I'll open Goons/Village, and likely get away with an attack before your Poisoner hits the board.  Or better, I'll open Witch/Poisoner...

No.  This is too huge.

You bought a Militia for 4$ and all you got was an additional +1 buy, +1/2 VP. That's not game-warping at all. Witch for 3$ is nice, but as you will probably lose it again soon it's not that good either.

Sure, I trash my witch, but I'll just buy another one since they only cost 3. This just doesn't seem fun.
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