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Abel_K

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Question about 'trash' cards
« on: January 30, 2014, 05:06:09 pm »
0

I'm new on this site, and rather new in Dominion knowlegde (a few weeks), and, worse, I am french !! :)    (with a non-really-fluent-english...).  I try to learn about Dominion, on that site and some others. My question for today is this one : I don't understand the logic of the cost of certain cards that trash. Look these examples : Trading Post, trash 2 cards and receive a Silver , costs 5$ (not very exciting, except for coppers and curses of course?) / Develop , trash one card, receive 2, costs "nothing" (3$) [perhaps the lower cards becomes "heavy " in the deck??] / remodel : gain a card +2, costs 4$  :  and, surprise, the forge at 7 $ for equality trash/gain (I understand that we can trash 3 poor cards to gain a Province, but it seems odd to the beginner I am).
Thank you for your explanations !
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Awaclus

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 05:20:35 pm »
+1

Welcome!

Well, Forge is a rather weak $7 card. But it's good because you can trash a lot of bad cards to gain a good card; you want the good card in your deck and you want to get rid of the bad cards, so it's a win-win situation. The same is true for Trading Post, with the difference that Silver is more like a mediocre card than a good card, and that you gain the Silver into your hand so you can use it immediately. Meanwhile, Remodel and Develop can't trash more than one card, so they aren't that good, and their gaining abilities are pretty limited as well (you can't just get rid of a Copper with Remodel, you have to gain an Estate unless there's a $2 Action on the board, and Develop sometimes makes you gain cards that you don't really want in your deck/often you will gain just a single card).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 05:21:55 pm by Awaclus »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 05:22:23 pm »
0

The main value of trashers is to get rid of junk cards - Coppers, Curses, Estates, Ruins and Shelters. The prices are, to some extent, based on how well the trasher deals with those. Forge is really great because you can put any number of Coppers, Curses and Ruins into the trash and it won't affect the total you're going for. Trading Post is OK because you can trash two junk cards and get a Silver in hand, which is a nice asset to have right now.

Develop and Remodel are not much cop as trashers of junk cards because they only trash one card, and you usually won't get a good one back. (The exception is turning Estates into $4 cards with Remodel.) They're better used as ways to turn good cards into better cards.
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qmech

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 05:36:35 pm »
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Trading Post allows you to get rid of two cards that you don't want (typically Coppers, Estates and Curses) and gain one that you do (Silver).  This is very efficient, which means it frequently justifies its $5 cost.  It's downsides are that it is slow compared to some other trashers, and the Silver gaining means that your deck does not get that much smaller, so it isn't always the best card for setting up complicated engines.

Develop is very situational.  Often it isn't worth its $3 cost.  The main uses are perhaps when you have a specific use in mind (Ill-gotten Gains to Fairgrounds and Silk Road, for example), or when there is a lot of engine potential and no other trashers are available.

Remodel is useful much more often than Develop, because it is valuable at both the start and the end of the game, trashing Estates early and turning Golds into Provinces later on.

Forge is so expensive because it can trash an unlimited number of cards in one go.  The gaining is a nice bonus, but is rarely the main point of buying the card.
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Abel_K

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 06:17:39 pm »
+4

Thank you very much for your various answers. As we say by there : "I'm going to go to bed less stupid"!  And i GO to bed ! (it's late in France). Have a good evening !
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SirPeebles

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2014, 06:57:12 pm »
+2

My favorite article on this entire site is Geronimoo's article on "building the first game engine".

http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/

What I like about it is that it leads you through several iterations of an engine, each time analyzing it for flaws, considering fixes, and then implementing that fix.  Go read it if you haven't already, I don't want to spoil it.  It shows you that comboing cards for an engine can be highly effective, but to run the engine reliably you need to trash out cards.  This processing of building and trashing is time consuming though.  There are three ways discussed for effectively speeding this up 1) slowing your opponent with attacks, 2) using gainers like Remodel and Mine, and 3) building up further and acquire a spare buy to purchase two Provinces per turn.

So regarding trashers, there is a bit of tension.  We want to get rid of bad cards fast, but we also want to be gaining good cards.  A card like Chapel allows you to trash a ton at once, but that is effectively your entire turn.  A card like Moneylender trashes more slowly, but you still have lots of buying power during that hand.  It is a balance. A card like Forge is generally good for two things.  One is to go for a Forge megaturn where you draw your entire deck and then trash away ALL of your junk (Coppers, Estates, Curses, Shelters, Ruins, Rats, etc.).  That is easier said than done.  The other ability is that you can hopefully Forge stuff together for late game Duchies or Provinces.
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Abel_K

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 05:38:10 pm »
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Thanks for this very precious and interesting link. There's work to do with it !
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KingZog3

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 06:48:20 pm »
0

I'm new on this site, and rather new in Dominion knowlegde (a few weeks), and, worse, I am french !! :)    (with a non-really-fluent-english...).  I try to learn about Dominion, on that site and some others. My question for today is this one : I don't understand the logic of the cost of certain cards that trash. Look these examples : Trading Post, trash 2 cards and receive a Silver , costs 5$ (not very exciting, except for coppers and curses of course?) / Develop , trash one card, receive 2, costs "nothing" (3$) [perhaps the lower cards becomes "heavy " in the deck??] / remodel : gain a card +2, costs 4$  :  and, surprise, the forge at 7 $ for equality trash/gain (I understand that we can trash 3 poor cards to gain a Province, but it seems odd to the beginner I am).
Thank you for your explanations !

Pas de problem! Je parle francais (mais mon clavier n'a pas d'accent :P)
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Asper

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 07:07:26 pm »
+1

There are much more of these so-called "trash for benefit" cards, and if you want to compare them, i suggest you just take a look at the Dominion Wiki.

Personally i play Dominion for quite some time, and i too find Forge (as well as Expand) to be absurdly expensive. They might not work for 6$ (i don't know about that), but unless Quarry or a lucky Coppersmith happens, they never seem to make a difference for me.

Trading Post on the other hand is a trasher, but it also gives you money (+2$) and gains a card. It is pretty good at increasing your "money density". Strangely i thought about it just today and found it interesting that the card is better the worse your deck is - more noticeably than other trashers, i daresay.

Develop often forces you to gain cheap cards you don't want, especially if you trash more expensive cards (trashing a Gold for example is usually just giving you a worse card on top of your deck). It can help you build an "engine" under certain circumstances, i guess, but i must admit that i never got it to work really well, personally.

Remodel on the contrary is happy to trash expensive cards, and you would usually refrain from trashing Coppers with it (often you would have to gain an Estate), but trashing a Gold at the endgame can be a clever move. It is - in a way - more flexible than Develop.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 07:09:16 pm by Asper »
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KingZog3

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 07:35:51 pm »
0

I don't find Forge too expensive. Expand yes, but otherwise Forge is a good card. Not KC, but I think it's worth closer to $7 than to $6.
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Abel_K

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2014, 03:11:39 pm »
+1

KingZog : thank you for "giving me the hand". I'll certainly solicit your french knowledge when certain things will seem too obscure to me in english !
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KingZog3

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2014, 05:38:40 pm »
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KingZog : thank you for "giving me the hand". I'll certainly solicit your french knowledge when certain things will seem too obscure to me in english !

I assume you mean "donner moi un main" or something, but it doesn't translate directly.

And I'll be happy to try and translate if needed.
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Marcory

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2014, 08:02:49 pm »
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The correct idiom is 'give me a hand', but his translation isn't too far off
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Mr.Oatmeal

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 02:07:31 pm »
+4

I don't know if this went into any of the consideration, but I wonder if forge costs 7 so that it's not overpowered with self-synergy. At most other prices, you can load up on a bunch of them, and it would not be a problem, because you can easily forge it into something else once your are trashed down. At 7, it is harder to forge a forge into something else.
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Asper

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 02:34:39 pm »
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I don't know if this went into any of the consideration, but I wonder if forge costs 7 so that it's not overpowered with self-synergy. At most other prices, you can load up on a bunch of them, and it would not be a problem, because you can easily forge it into something else once your are trashed down. At 7, it is harder to forge a forge into something else.

Yes, that's what i meant when i said "they might not work for 6$". I just don't think that they work at 7$, either, which probably means they don't work at all.

It's funny how Kings Court and Expand are both just 4$s with the "2" in their text replaced by a "3" to make them cost 7$, and how one is so strong it's game-changing sometimes, while the other just isn't.
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Awaclus

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2014, 03:58:34 pm »
0

It's funny how Kings Court and Expand are both just 4$s with the "2" in their text replaced by a "3" to make them cost 7$, and how one is so strong it's game-changing sometimes, while the other just isn't.
It's also funny how this card would be ridiculous even though it's basically the same thing:

$7 Action - Attack
+$3
Each other player discards down to two cards in hand.
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liopoil

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2014, 04:01:52 pm »
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I entered a card into the prosperity card contest that was that except with thief.
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SCSN

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2014, 04:21:26 pm »
+6

At 7, it is harder to forge a forge into something else.

At 7 you can Forge a Forge into a Forge—and out comes a yo dawg meme.
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Emeric

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2014, 04:16:04 am »
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KingZog : thank you for "giving me the hand". I'll certainly solicit your french knowledge when certain things will seem too obscure to me in english !

And you are not alone to be french !
Et t'habites où à Rennes, moi j'habite près du parc de Bréquigny ;)
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itchiko

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2014, 10:14:57 am »
+4

I think the OP issue with costs are just coming from the idea that cost are a function of the power of the cards.
I don't think that is the case in Dominion.

Costs are a function of accessibility in term of Timing and Accumulation.

Timing:
- cards costing 4 or less are early game cards, cards that will ramp up your starting deck (Removing the starting cards while Gaining/Buying better ones) or slow down the start of your opponents.
- cards costing 5 are more middle game cards: cards that will ramp you up further and quicker, so that one of your first goal in a game is to reach 5 several time to gain those.
- cards costing 6 or more are end game cards: They should either be the goal of your strategy until you reach them (Goons/ King's court) or a way to gain Big Green cards.

Accumulation:
Mostly important for the low level cards:
- cards costing 1 or 2: can have 3 flavor: strong but no interest in being accumulated (Chapel), Strong if accumulated in great quantities (Fool's gold, Native Village), weak and neutral to the deck (pearl diver). In all 3 cases the fact that they are easily accumulated by any sort of +buy is a good thing.
- cards costing 3: are harder to get with +buy until late in the mid game but are easy to accumulate anyway (since 3 is nearly impossible to miss in an hand). So you will find there cards that can be accumulated in early game easily without strong consequences)
- cards costing 4: are the hardest of the early game to accumulate so you can have cards there that will be fairly strong (Caravan for example or Tournament) where the goal of the mid game will be to win the split. But mostly you have cards in the 4 range that could cause issue by being opened in double.

For the case of the trasher:
- chapel cost 2 because opening chapel/Something should always be a possibility (even if you start 5/2) and it is no consequences since accumulating more chapel is useless anyway.
- Moneylender costs 4 so that you can not open double moneylender (if you don't conflict that could be a very great boost very early). By the way Moneylender is more dangerous as a double opening than pure trasher because you don't lose the turn in which you trash so that you keep the same tempo as someone who had just opened silver.
- Trading post is a very great opening: (Even better than moneylender but basically the same idea, trashing bad cards while keeping the tempo) as such it needs to costs 5 because otherwise it would be an opening an all board it is in. It is a little sub par in mid-game and even worse as late game so that it terms of power it is overpriced but in term of accessibility it is where it should be.
- Forge: By designing it with a cost of 7, Donald X basically forced it to be only an end game card. in term of power it could easily have been a 5 but the choice have been made to not use it in mid game. In end game it is an ok way to gain provinces or to improve your deck. The price of 7 instead of 6 means for me that he wanted to avoid getting an early one by chance on the turn 3-5. It is possible that it would have been too strong then (forging your whole hand a la chapel plus gaining a card)

Hope that will help you understand how costs in Dominion are tricky and works in a strange ways.

ps: Je pense qu'il y a pas mal de francais sur le forum et autre europeen d'une maniere general. Ne t'inquiete pas pour ton anglais, tant que tu est comprensible personne ne va te tenir rigueur d une faute ou deux. 
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Holger

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 02:09:28 pm »
+1

- Forge: By designing it with a cost of 7, Donald X basically forced it to be only an end game card. in term of power it could easily have been a 5 but the choice have been made to not use it in mid game. In end game it is an ok way to gain provinces or to improve your deck. The price of 7 instead of 6 means for me that he wanted to avoid getting an early one by chance on the turn 3-5. It is possible that it would have been too strong then (forging your whole hand a la chapel plus gaining a card)

At $5, Forge would give an immense advantage to a player having a 5/2 split - Forge would be about as strong as Chapel when bought on turn 1/2, and both are (probably) too strong to cost $5 because of this split imbalance.
I think Forge could work just fine at $6 - you can be lucky to get $7 on turn 3/4 as well (and increase your chances with Death cart, Baron, Coppersmith etc.) Forging your whole hand in the early game seems like the best use of Forge to me, it's a pity that the $7 price usually doesn't allow it. It might be slightly stronger than Chapel in the early game, but that seems okay to me for a $6 card.
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popsofctown

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2014, 08:15:39 pm »
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I dunno, being able to forge other forges into Province without a dependency on Shelter/Poor House would be a pretty big change.  It might be dominant.  Maybe maybe not.
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flies

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2014, 12:36:27 am »
0

Abel_K: is ur nick a Veronica Mars reference?
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Abel_K

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2014, 08:55:03 am »
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To flies : it's funny, but not at all !!  Abel is my third Christian name , and the first one of my grandfather... And 'K' is the first letter of my name... That's all (and, shame on me, I never seen one minute of Veonika Mars... :-[)
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KingZog3

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Re: Question about 'trash' cards
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2014, 04:03:06 pm »
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To flies : it's funny, but not at all !!  Abel is my third Christian name , and the first one of my grandfather... And 'K' is the first letter of my name... That's all (and, shame on me, I never seen one minute of Veonika Mars... :-[)

No shame. It's not a good show.
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