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Qvist

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 11:04:13 am »
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Sorry, but I think my question was misunderstood. I got the idea of the relegation matches, but what is the intention behind them? Why not just promote the first and demote #7 and #8. Why do the #2 and #5 and #6 all have to play relegation matches? I just don't like when after a league all comes down to one single game. Either promote (demote) only 1 (2) in each league or do it with 2 (4) right away.
I want as many rankings as possible to be 'special' in the end from a perspective of promotion/demotion. Using 5 categories (promotion, conditional promotion, nothing, conditional demotion, demotion) in stead of 3 increases the chance that your last match(es) will still matter for the category you end up in. This decreases the chance you're unwilling to play them. That, and I think it's more fun this way.

I'm not a big fan of relegation matches, but I see what you are trying to achieve with this. For me every rank counts and I would play every match with the same "passion" no matter if it would be for rank #1 or rank #4. But I guess not everyone would do that.

Monsieur X

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2014, 11:05:48 am »
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I like your idea Stef. A dominion League coud be great!

I 'm not so enthusiastic about matches for demotion/promotion. I dont like when there are mix between league and "one match decision".
And also it can be very difficult to go in the better division.

Why not putting more players in each division (maybe 10) and only one division for each level?

For example

Divison 1  10 players    Last #9 #10 demotion
Division 2  10 players    #1 and #2 promotion    #9 #10 demotion
Division 3 10 players   the same
...

Championships would be more challenging. I dont know for other players, but  i prefer to play in division 3 with 2 promotions, than in one of the two divisions 2 with less possibilities to go on division 1.

I dont know if you understand my point of view,  my english is not very good


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yed

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2014, 11:21:43 am »
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Why not putting more players in each division (maybe 10) and only one division for each level?

For example

Divison 1  10 players    Last #9 #10 demotion
Division 2  10 players    #1 and #2 promotion    #9 #10 demotion
Division 3 10 players   the same
...

Championships would be more challenging. I dont know for other players, but  i prefer to play in division 3 with 2 promotions, than in one of the two divisions 2 with less possibilities to go on division 1.
I don't like this because if 100 people participate, new player would need 10 seasons (2 years) to get to the top. And with 200 people it is 4 years.
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Kirian

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2014, 11:40:51 am »
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Maybe the way to reconcile the last few posts is just to demote/promote more people?  5 to 8 always fall, 1 and 2 always get promoted.  That gets rid of all the extra matches, though it does cause a higher churn rate.
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Voltaire

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2014, 11:42:44 am »
+4

I personally think the original proposal strikes the right balance.
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Davio

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2014, 03:27:15 am »
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Will we do the initial seeding based on Isotropish ranking?

And we might as well start a sign-up topic just to see how many divisions we're actually talking about.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2014, 03:48:16 am »
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/in
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soulnet

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2014, 07:28:13 am »
+2

Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Nah, you should just have timezone divisions to make scheduling easier.

I.E:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D

I like the regional divisions, like in the Davis Cup, but I don't like your view of what the world is. Where did the entire American continent went, besides the US?
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soulnet

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2014, 07:33:28 am »
+4

Notice that the extra promotion matches would not have the flexible scheduling the rest of the league has, because I can't imagine a 7 week stop in between seasons to schedule promotion/demotion matches. I think any of the ideas without the promotion/demotion extra games are better because of this. Also, handling the matching of the promotion/demotion games seems a lot of extra organizing work for little reward.

My proposal would be 9 people in each division, 2 promote, 3 stay, 4 demote. I think it is better to have a larger number of non-demotes than demotes, and while in this proposal is only slightly higher, is the best I could do while maintaining small divisions and at least 2 promotions.
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lespeutere

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2014, 11:59:30 am »
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How do you arrive at 7 week stops if there are only single matches played for ~motion?

A 2-3 weeks break between seasons is fine and I don't see that much of a problem scheduling a single match within this period.
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soulnet

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2014, 12:14:19 pm »
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How do you arrive at 7 week stops if there are only single matches played for ~motion?

A 2-3 weeks break between seasons is fine and I don't see that much of a problem scheduling a single match within this period.

It was mentioned as a good property of the format that the scheduling was comfortable because there was a 7 weeks window to schedule each match. Unless there is that time in between regular seasons, scheduling promotion matches would be more difficult, and for some unfortunate people, it may be exactly in their busy time (family vacations away from the computer, deadlines, whatever).

Making the gap longer makes this scheduling easier, but it also leaves a lot of people that do not play promotion matches without any kind of match for a long time. I would have each season starting immediately after the previous ended. Since there is a large time window to schedule matches, people that prefer to have breaks can have one or two weeks off and schedule their 7 matches in the rest of the window.

(replace all the 7 by N-1 if N not equal to 8 is chosen for division size)
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Kirian

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2014, 12:20:59 pm »
+9

Also, the divisions shouldn't be A-B-etc.  They should be

Platinum (8 players)
Gold (16 players)
Silver (32 players)
Copper (64 players)
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2014, 12:24:23 pm »
+2

I'd prefer:

King's Court
Throne Room
Great Hall
Secret Chamber
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lespeutere

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2014, 03:23:35 pm »
+2

It was mentioned as a good property of the format that the scheduling was comfortable because there was a 7 weeks window to schedule each match. Unless there is that time in between regular seasons, scheduling promotion matches would be more difficult, and for some unfortunate people, it may be exactly in their busy time (family vacations away from the computer, deadlines, whatever).

Making the gap longer makes this scheduling easier, but it also leaves a lot of people that do not play promotion matches without any kind of match for a long time. I would have each season starting immediately after the previous ended. Since there is a large time window to schedule matches, people that prefer to have breaks can have one or two weeks off and schedule their 7 matches in the rest of the window.

Fair enough, breaks or no breaks seems to be open to debate then. I'd prefer short breaks just to not have one (seemingly) endless thing, but separate seasons.

Also, the divisions shouldn't be A-B-etc.  They should be

Platinum (8 players)
Gold (16 players)
Silver (32 players)
Copper (64 players)

Shame on you, Alchemist! Where is that potion?
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Davio

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2014, 05:40:54 am »
0

Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

How about 3 - 6?

I think we should just let 4 and 5 alone.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

I think naming the divisions Colony through Estate makes a bit more sense. You could always go down to Curse if more than 120 people show up.

Another thing; the bottom divisions probably do not all have 8 players. But we can cross that bridge when we get there and see how we divide things up.
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ashersky

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2014, 08:25:07 am »
+1

I'd play.

How would you work out card ownership?   (That is, can those who haven't paid Goko play in the league?)
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Teproc

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2014, 08:47:52 am »
0

Seems like a neat idea. Like Qvist, I'm not a fan of relegation matches, and would play for ranking regardless (ie it matters to me being 3rd over 4th, regardless of the rewards attached to it).

Regional divisions seem good, although it causes a problem at the Gold level. Europe/America is a fine division, but kind of leaves Asian/Australian players hanging. Maybe Pacific/Atlantic ? This is bad for people in Russia or the Middle East, but I don't think there are a lot of them here, right ?
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Davio

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2014, 12:00:34 pm »
0

It's probably easier to do the actual divides when we know how many players from what continents we are dealing with.

If anyone knows a super handy site for registration, let us know. We should pick a deadline though for the current rankings to base the initial seeding on.
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soulnet

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2014, 12:22:26 pm »
0

A Form by Google should be easy enough (much easier than /inning in some forum thread). In any case, I would polish the format and open the signups a couple of weeks before actually starting, otherwise we may see a lot of signing ups being canceled.

About the names, I grant that Victory card names make more sense, but basic Treasures feel better for divisions names in my head.

I would also like:

Necropolis
Hamlet
Village
Plaza / Fortress
City

which fits the theme "places where people gather".

EDIT: We may even use different names of cards of the same cost with a name representing a place for the divisions in the same level, even though there are not enough Villages.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 03:44:41 pm by soulnet »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2014, 12:23:27 pm »
+1

Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

This does not work with the proposed structure, the tiers are like this:
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
etc. There are two #2s vying for a spot in the higher division. That is why Stef's proposal always has more possible demotions than promotions per division, promotions/demotions aren't symmetric.
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GeoLib

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2014, 03:34:48 pm »
+9

Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

This does not work with the proposed structure, the tiers are like this:
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
etc. There are two #2s vying for a spot in the higher division. That is why Stef's proposal always has more possible demotions than promotions per division, promotions/demotions aren't symmetric.

Why are you derailing the thread with this talk of how to set up the divisions when we haven't even decided what they're going to be called??
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Davio

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2014, 02:47:27 am »
0

Okay, we have 8 players in a division; #1 promotes, #8 demotes.

I think #2 should play a match vs #7 of the division above him for promotion/demotion.

You could have #3 play #6, this way you have more chances to move up or down.

This is slightly different from Stef's proposal in that 5 can't get demoted anymore, I think it's a bit silly that you could get demoted if you end up about halfway in your division. 4 has 3 above him and 5 has 3 below him, nothing wrong with that. The incentive for #4 and #5 are of course to get either 3rd or NOT 6th. But sometimes you will still have games that don't matter at the end, there's nothing wrong with that though.

This does not work with the proposed structure, the tiers are like this:
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
etc. There are two #2s vying for a spot in the higher division. That is why Stef's proposal always has more possible demotions than promotions per division, promotions/demotions aren't symmetric.
Oh, right, somehow I missed that.

In that case I would just pit #2's from B against #6 and #7 from A.

This means that #3 to #5 from division B downwards are done at the end, but I don't think that's wrong or that there need to be more matches at the end. This isn't a TV sport where we need more matches to bring in more money.

I mean, if you're going to the trouble to compete, you're also likely to try your best and play for the highest possible spot. And if not, well no one's stopping you from trying out a wacky strategy in your final game.

If I'm going to end up 3rd, I'm not going to be bothered by the fact that I can't promote.

My main incentive for competing would be that I get to play interesting matches at roughly my own level and if my play gets me 3rd, well, I guess that's the division I belong in.

This only differs from Stef's original plan in that #7 doesn't demote directly.
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yed

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2014, 06:53:13 am »
0

In that case I would just pit #2's from B against #6 and #7 from A.
That does not work. You have two #1s from B, so they take place #7 and #8 from A.
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Emeric

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2014, 08:24:09 am »
0

int this model
     A
  B     B
C C   C C
I think the best way is :
from Division A 3 demotion (#6, #7 and #8)
from Division B 3 promotion (#1 of each group and the winner of a match beetween #2 of each group).
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Emeric

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Re: Dominion League?
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2014, 08:28:22 am »
0

Also the 8 people groups at same league level (2nd and more) can be somehow shuffled together so that you play with different people each season.
Nah, you should just have timezone divisions to make scheduling easier.

I.E:

- Division A would be essentially a "World" division, no way around it
- Division B could be divided roughly into Europe/Africa and USA/Asia/Oceania
- There are 4 Division C's, so these will be mostly people in the same timezones, not more than 3 hours apart
Etc...

The fun part about having regional divisions is that you could choose to play your match in real life if you wanted to. :D

I like the regional divisions, like in the Davis Cup, but I don't like your view of what the world is. Where did the entire American continent went, besides the US?

I dislike regional divisions.
In sports in the real life, regional division are in place to reduce the cost of the sport. For exemple when I am a poor player in a poor division I don't like to cross all over France to play against another poor player of my poor division.

But with online competition, I want to play against Japan, American, Brazilian or other pepople from Tuvalu ! And not only if I am in the first division.
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