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Author Topic: What cards would you happily do without?  (Read 25072 times)

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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2014, 02:10:08 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.
Workshop -> Armory (and Ironworks)

Should Village be taken out because all other villages do that plus more?

I would argue no, because it adds something fundamental to the game. Village has an opportunity cost (anything else, essentially) that none of the upgraded villages have.
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ehunt

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2014, 02:19:46 pm »
0

I'm concerned that there's insufficient hating on tournament in here.

That said, we've had lots of threads about which cards we like and dislike, and the interesting question this thread asks is: which cards bore you? Hmm... Spy. It takes too much time to resolve and adds nothing to the game.

Edit: I like all the other cards except tournament and scrying pool, and I'd like scrying pool if it didn't spy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:21:03 pm by ehunt »
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2014, 02:40:47 pm »
0


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
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Holger

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2014, 02:57:18 pm »
+1

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?

I don't think "+1 card, +1 action, reveal the top card of your deck" would be viable at 0. If you ignore the reveal thing, which is only useful to a minor extent with a few cards (pawn, steward, mystic...), it has achieved nothing. You bought a card that did nothing because you guessed wrong, and unlike with mystic there's no self synergy. It just feels like a dull, non functional card with its interesting effect done much better on another.

I suppose I used to like it before I realized that "+1 card, +1 action" got you back to where you started and opening village or great hall was stupid.

I don't like Wishing Well either, but I think a "failed WW" would be viable (if boring) at $1. Just being a "do-nothing" cantrip lets it actually do something positive with a big number of other cards (Goons, Conspirator, Peddler, Scrying Pool/Herald, Gardens, cards that care about variety, TR/KC/Proc., TfB, defense against trashing/deck-inspection attacks...). While a $0 cantrip pile would make Goons even more overpowered.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2014, 04:44:55 pm »
+3


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
So, there aren't all that many times where you don't want anything that costs 4 or less. Yeah, it has to be better than silver, but it also has to be better than all the other cheap cards, too. So you are building an engine, so much that you don't want silver, but there aren't any other engine components you want that cost less than $5? I mean, said engines are fairly likely to not be good. But also, why don't you want silver? Because it doesn't draw anything. Scout needs to be at least draw-neutral to not similarly be a clog, which means that in this super-engine-y deck, you have >25% victory cards? Really? This just, like, never happens. And if you're worried about a 3 pile ending (and if there are a couple of other empty piles of cheap cards leading to the reason you don't have anything else to buy, you probably should be), you really ought to be better positioning yourself for said ending, which scout certainly doesn't accomplish. Seriously, if you're so tied up, nothing is definitely better than scout - you just aren't going to have that many victory cards to draw. There are some 'interactions with other cards', but the problem is that these other cards are most often competing, and the interaction is really marginal to try to jump through so many hoops for.

Coppersmith definitely has a lot more situations where it is useful: Basically any engine where you aren't trashing copper, have a spare action, and usually you want +buy. So... tactician-based engines, wharf-based, council room, margrave, apothecary, as well as [any village]+[any smithy variant]+[any card that gives +buy]. Well, okay, it isn't as good as that sounds, because there is usually something better to do - but there's a reasonable amount of the time where it produces money better than any card this side of bank, and that is something - and there isn't ALWAYS something better to do.

Asper

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2014, 06:38:46 pm »
+1

Coppersmith is nice if you want to take a chance and get a very expensive card early. if you are lucky, it can buy you a Province by turn 3 (Tournament), or get you a Forge, Bank, King's Court, overpay for Doctor to trash your Coppers... I don't usually see it as viable card apart from that, but some cards that care about and/or give you Coppers work, too.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:40:09 pm by Asper »
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2014, 10:54:20 pm »
0


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
So, there aren't all that many times where you don't want anything that costs 4 or less. Yeah, it has to be better than silver, but it also has to be better than all the other cheap cards, too. So you are building an engine, so much that you don't want silver, but there aren't any other engine components you want that cost less than $5? I mean, said engines are fairly likely to not be good. But also, why don't you want silver? Because it doesn't draw anything. Scout needs to be at least draw-neutral to not similarly be a clog, which means that in this super-engine-y deck, you have >25% victory cards? Really? This just, like, never happens. And if you're worried about a 3 pile ending (and if there are a couple of other empty piles of cheap cards leading to the reason you don't have anything else to buy, you probably should be), you really ought to be better positioning yourself for said ending, which scout certainly doesn't accomplish. Seriously, if you're so tied up, nothing is definitely better than scout - you just aren't going to have that many victory cards to draw. There are some 'interactions with other cards', but the problem is that these other cards are most often competing, and the interaction is really marginal to try to jump through so many hoops for.

Coppersmith definitely has a lot more situations where it is useful: Basically any engine where you aren't trashing copper, have a spare action, and usually you want +buy. So... tactician-based engines, wharf-based, council room, margrave, apothecary, as well as [any village]+[any smithy variant]+[any card that gives +buy]. Well, okay, it isn't as good as that sounds, because there is usually something better to do - but there's a reasonable amount of the time where it produces money better than any card this side of bank, and that is something - and there isn't ALWAYS something better to do.

Very good arguments here.  Now think correct scout buys are even more rare than I thought.  Would have given this up sooner, but other arguments focused on strength of correct buys, instead of number.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2014, 11:44:34 pm »
+1

Coppersmith is nice if you want to take a chance and get a very expensive card early. if you are lucky, it can buy you a Province by turn 3 (Tournament), or get you a Forge, Bank, King's Court, overpay for Doctor to trash your Coppers... I don't usually see it as viable card apart from that, but some cards that care about and/or give you Coppers work, too.

Coppersmith is to Bank as Moneylender is to Counterfeit.

I really don't see the problem with Coppersmith at all personally; it's a unique card that early game usually works well enough, and works even better if you tailor your strategy to it (big hands). It's sometimes hard to work with, but it has its niche, and it does its niche very well. Pulling off a Coppersmith strategy is extremely rewarding.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2014, 01:44:35 am »
0

Coppersmith is nice if you want to take a chance and get a very expensive card early. if you are lucky, it can buy you a Province by turn 3 (Tournament), or get you a Forge, Bank, King's Court, overpay for Doctor to trash your Coppers... I don't usually see it as viable card apart from that, but some cards that care about and/or give you Coppers work, too.

It's a fun card if you can pull some sort of KC/Apothecary/something with +Buys/Coppersmith megaengine. KC coppersmith, who needs gold?
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2014, 02:26:10 am »
+1

King's Court, Tourniment, Sea Hag, Possession

Cards that I like but I think really need fixing:
Rebuild, Peddler (should never cost $0), and I think combining Chancellor and Woodcutter is a good idea.

It's fun to (try to) make good use of cards that are rarely useful which makes me like Scout.

KingZog3

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2014, 08:57:48 am »
+1

The more I play the more I can't say King's Court or Goons. I used to hate Goons, but these cards have too many fun interactions to hate. Same with Possession, but I can understand why it's annoying.

The only real cards that I hate are Rebuild, Tournament and Minion. And even Tournament is only a moderate hatred. Minion though is like pure rage when I play with it. It never seems to hit their bad hands, and always the hand when I get my good cads is when I'm hit with a Minion, only to draw a bunch of dead cards.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2014, 10:30:02 am »
+3

Well, first I would get rid of any attacks or cards that involve player interaction, since those are obviously a bad idea. Then I would define a narrow range of power for each price point based on vanilla bonuses and get rid of any card that fell outside that so there aren't any cards that are situational or exciting. Then I would implement a rule that every time you shuffled your deck, you got to arrange it how you like, so that the game would be as fair as possible.
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dondon151

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2014, 10:44:46 am »
+1

Every card in Dominion is situational.
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silverspawn

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2014, 03:11:03 pm »
+1

Rebuild (coinflip), Baron (coinflip, and dead card in shelter games), Duchess (doesn't do anything), Pearldriver (doesnt do anything), Masquerade (worst card ever made, "f*** everything), Scout, Transfusion (too weak), Possession (more a personal dislike, I don't think it's really a bad card), Coppersmith (complicated)

but really, i would rather remove just masquerade than every other card on the list.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:01:58 pm by silverspawn »
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sudgy

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2014, 03:19:24 pm »
+1

I would only get rid of Tournament and Rebuild.  Rebuild because it usually dominates, and Tournament because I just plain don't like it with it's luck.
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KingZog3

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2014, 04:00:33 pm »
+1

I would only get rid of Tournament and Rebuild.  Rebuild because it usually dominates, and Tournament because I just plain don't like it with it's luck.

This is pretty much the first post that sums up what I think about dominion cards. They are all good, and the only ones that are bad are the one's that are mostly coin flips.

Of course it's all personal taste in what's fun, but at the rate people are naming cards here it seems like there won't be any left by the 5th page of this thread (Depending on your page length obviously). Amazingly people are naming cards that are some of the most interesting cards and not cards like Harvest, Counting House (I mean if you're going with the whole too weak thing, why hasn't Counting House been mentioned?), Goons (I mentioned Goons though). How is Masquerade not fun? Did you get burned by it with a militia on the board? How is workshop not fun? Like, how? Would dominion really be better off without it? Because that should be the criteria.

Here's the new question. It isn't "What cards do you think suck?" it's "What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?" I don't think workshop will qualify for that.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2014, 04:19:56 pm »
0

What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?

I guess what I would say is that beyond maybe fixing up Rebuild and Scout, I wouldn't want to remove any cards unless they were replaced by better ones- there does need to be a finite number of cards, and there isn't an infinite amount of time for playtesting so the selection is never going to be perfect, but I think taking out even the most boring or most swingy cards without bringing something else in to replace them reduces the quality of Dominion as a game.

Quick edit: But yeah I don't know how people come away with the idea that Masquerade and Wandering Minstrel of all cards are overpowered or unfun. Masquerade is probably one of the best anti-cursing cards in the game and Wandering Minstrel gives really good support for engines but who the hell doesn't like engines?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 04:21:58 pm by A Drowned Kernel »
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markusin

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2014, 04:51:12 pm »
+1

What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?

I guess what I would say is that beyond maybe fixing up Rebuild and Scout, I wouldn't want to remove any cards unless they were replaced by better ones- there does need to be a finite number of cards, and there isn't an infinite amount of time for playtesting so the selection is never going to be perfect, but I think taking out even the most boring or most swingy cards without bringing something else in to replace them reduces the quality of Dominion as a game.

Quick edit: But yeah I don't know how people come away with the idea that Masquerade and Wandering Minstrel of all cards are overpowered or unfun. Masquerade is probably one of the best anti-cursing cards in the game and Wandering Minstrel gives really good support for engines but who the hell doesn't like engines?
The assumption in the OP is that the chosen cards get replaced by some other card. There's no guarantee that the replacing cards will be better, and it's hard to weight the option when you can't see the replacing card in front of you. I also wouldn't want to remove any cards without replacement.

While I don't prioritize replacing it all that much, I maintain that Wandering Minstrel provides too much support for engines, all by simply amassing them. Combined village and mini-Cartographer for $4. Well, I guess that's not such a bad thing in itself, but then there's all that effect resolving time.

I imagine some people get really annoyed when they have to give a good card away with Masquerade. Still, it's application is rather open ended and it's dangerous to get too many.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2014, 05:21:38 pm »
+1

The only three I would consider are Black Market, Tournament, and Possession.  The first two allow you to acquire unique cards, which is anathema to the original spirit of Dominion, the key point of which is that everyone has the same cards available.  Possession I could do without not because of its power, but entirely because of confusion.  Real-life games are confused by it; every online version so far has had glitches surrounding it.  It's just easier to skip it.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2014, 05:27:05 pm »
0

Scout, duh.
Black market, because it's too annoying IRL.
Doctor.
Mandarin, because Count exists.

That's it.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2014, 07:16:16 pm »
0

Quote
How is Masquerade not fun?

i can see why you would find it fun, but the thread says "what cards would you happily do without?" not "what cards do you think are badly designed". I hate the fact that it makes you pass good card sometimes; passing even just a village is about the worst feeling i can get from playing dominion. and contrary to other (equally or even more) luck dependend cards,  I don't feel good if it works out either, instead, if my opponent has to pass a good card to me, I just feel sorry for him. it's a loss-loss. it only causes frustration. rebuild can make you lose games too, but it doesn't force you to make presents to your opponent.

i wish it were just "+2 cards, you may trash a card from your hand."

Quote
"What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?"
if there's no replacement: rebuild, counting house, duchess, pearl driver, transfusion, scout, maybe chancellor. first is uninteresting and dominates, and the other ones usually just occupy a slot without doing anything
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:22:04 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2014, 07:29:21 pm »
+2

Mandarin, because Count exists.
They can give you the same on-play effect, but you buy them for totally different reasons.  Mandarin's key feature is the on-gain, Count's key feature is the trashing, sometimes the Duchy-gaining.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2014, 07:45:09 pm »
0

Mandarin, because Count exists.
They can give you the same on-play effect, but you buy them for totally different reasons.  Mandarin's key feature is the on-gain, Count's key feature is the trashing, sometimes the Duchy-gaining.

i think his point is that count is strictly better once you have it. that's the closest thing to a really strictkly better card that we have
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:47:03 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2014, 07:50:14 pm »
0

Mandarin, because Count exists.
They can give you the same on-play effect, but you buy them for totally different reasons.  Mandarin's key feature is the on-gain, Count's key feature is the trashing, sometimes the Duchy-gaining.

i think his point is that count is strictly better once you have it. that's the closest thing to a really strictkly better card that we have
I think jaybeez's point is that you buy Mandarin because of the on-gain ability and Count because of the trashing, so they are totally different cards. I mean, that's like saying that Silver is strictly better than Ill-Gotten Gains once you have it, and claiming that IGG shouldn't exist because of that. And I'm pretty sure that Noble Brigand vs. Thief is much closer to being strictly better.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:51:33 pm by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2014, 08:01:01 pm »
+2

I'm concerned that there's insufficient hating on tournament in here.

I love Tournament. The luck factor can be infuriating, but I recently played a Colony game where neither player ever took a Colony/Platinum due to Tournament and related factors. That's too interesting to see gone from the game.
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