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[JOG]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.  Although I'd still probably get rid of scout just because cards like cartographer, crossroads, and vagrant do similar things and are so much better.

Possession because often it's a race to playing the most possessions while having a weak deck, and
stalemates are possible.  It could maybe be fixed by allowing only 1 play per turn, like tactician or outpost.

Possibly urchin and tournament because they're too swingy.

I could see IGG, JOAT and rebuild because they are the dominant strategy a little too often.  I would say IGG is dominant strategy more often than even rebuild.  And, IGG rush is much simpler to play than a straightforward rebuild strategy.  I would probably keep JOAT.  It seems like games in which only JOAT and treasure buys is best strategy are rare.

[NoMoreFun]

Wishing Well is very different from Mystic, and I think it's supposed to be.  Wishing Well is supposed to be about probability/guessing based on the contents of your draw pile, while Mystic is supposed to be self-synergizing and mostly about knowing the top card of your deck.

Mystic can be about probability too, it's just less swingy. Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

I really think Mystic is a "fixed" card, and is just in doubt because the original isn't that weak and the prices are very different.

On the other hand I have no problem with both Oracle and Catacombs existing, mainly because of their price differences (as well as the little attack/when trash bonuses). Maybe I just dislike guessing games, and that's all wishing well is most of the time (even if you can get better at guessing).

[jonts26]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

[JOG]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.

[WanderingWinder]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.

Scout is bad in all of those situations.
1. You don't need scout with these cards - just play them on themselves, you have plenty of actions.
2. This is not worth the effort. You'd be better off getting a different card.
3. I would rather have another great hall or crossroads, in the rare event that a strategy based on this is actually good....

I will say it's probably less crippling to your deck to have a random scout than a lot of other cards in a lot of games, but being less bad doesn't make it a better card - bad enough to not gain is more or less the worst you can go.

Scout's best use is definitely with Scrying pool, in some weird cases with limited villages or something. But it's pretty rare.

Edit: Coppersmith is really nice in big engines (huge money source), which ok, comes up pretty rare, but not THAT rare. And some other very edge cases. And Mandarin is actually just good with Big Money, gives a decent money source for some engines (and the put-back ability can be a boon for setting up your next turn in these cases). They certainly aren't great, but they definitely have their uses.

[AJD]

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?

[elahrairah13]

Top of my list would be Sea Hag. It's not very interesting mechanically, and it generally just slows the pace of the game to a crawl, particularly in multiplayer, but it's usually too strong to ignore, and adds a lot of early game variance in what cards get flipped.

what if sea hag instructed (obviously exact wording would differ)
"opponents reveal the top card of their deck. if it's a curse, they discard it. if it's not a curse, they put it back. opponents gain a curse on top of their deck". that dumps the swinginess of what gets flipped, but it saves you from the problem of getting triple sea hagged and getting three curses on top.

[zporiri]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.

KC and throne room can still be very good in games without +actions or cantrips as long as thereis a good card-drawer. if smithy is on the board, a KC or throne room engine is still very viable, especially if there is trashing

[JOG]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.

Scout is bad in all of those situations.
1. You don't need scout with these cards - just play them on themselves, you have plenty of actions.
2. This is not worth the effort. You'd be better off getting a different card.
3. I would rather have another great hall or crossroads, in the rare event that a strategy based on this is actually good....

I will say it's probably less crippling to your deck to have a random scout than a lot of other cards in a lot of games, but being less bad doesn't make it a better card - bad enough to not gain is more or less the worst you can go.

Scout's best use is definitely with Scrying pool, in some weird cases with limited villages or something. But it's pretty rare.

Edit: Coppersmith is really nice in big engines (huge money source), which ok, comes up pretty rare, but not THAT rare. And some other very edge cases. And Mandarin is actually just good with Big Money, gives a decent money source for some engines (and the put-back ability can be a boon for setting up your next turn in these cases). They certainly aren't great, but they definitely have their uses.

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

Herald and wishing well piles often run quickly.  If there are no other enablers, it could be the best option to keep an engine running. 
In an ironmonger game, it could guarantee + actions if there are no villages.
They could help activate conspirators.  1 or 2 might be a better choice than an 8th market square. 
In big end turn games (HoP, goons, highway or bridge) you often don't want extra treasure, and drawing cards pile out, so with no other options, the best choice is scout.
They could stop an apothecary engine from clogging. 
In the (rare) scout, great hall example you would need scouts to get any benefit from the great halls right?
In the (very rare, edge case) scout, crossroads example a scout or 2 would be more useful than a 4th crossroads, if the goal is to draw deck, right?
Agree on TR, KC procession.  Didn't think that one through. 

The topic of the thread was cards you could happily do without.  I chose transmute, harvest, coppersmith and mandarin because of how often they are ignored and how often they add nothing at all to kingdoms.  Scout was used to illustrate how rarely those cards are used.  I could happily do without scout also.  I understand that there are games where these cards are playable and can even shine.  I'd just rather not have them and have more kingdoms where all/most cards are playable.

[jonts26]

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but while we're on it, what would be a minimum change required to make Scout a viable card? 5 cards instead of 4? Curses as well as Victory Cards? Make it a cantrip? What about any card that is a Victory Card or $2 or less, to make it combo awesomely with Bridge etc? Maybe it's a whole different card then.

[jonts26]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but while we're on it, what would be a minimum change required to make Scout a viable card? 5 cards instead of 4? Curses as well as Victory Cards? Make it a cantrip? What about any card that is a Victory Card or $2 or less, to make it combo awesomely with Bridge etc? Maybe it's a whole different card then.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4957.0

[JOG]

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

Scout does almost nothing for your deck- understood.  Useful cards for your deck are unavailable (maybe piles are out, maybe you don't have the money).  Should you buy nothing, scout or something that could possibly weaken your deck?  Probably scout.  Does this happen more often than situations in which it is correct to buy coppersmith or transmute? I think so.

[jonts26]

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

Scout does almost nothing for your deck- understood.  Useful cards for your deck are unavailable (maybe piles are out, maybe you don't have the money).  Should you buy nothing, scout or something that could possibly weaken your deck?  Probably scout.  Does this happen more often than situations in which it is correct to buy coppersmith or transmute? I think so.

Scout often will weaken your deck. Probably not as often as, say coppersmith, but nothing is usually preferable to scout. However, there is something which typically is a good buy which wont run out - silver. Scout gives +1 action, so you can play it for free, but unless you are drawing more than one card, its a crappy cantrip. The deck reordering is ok, but in an engine, theres basically always other pieces to buy. And by the time there isn't its probably time to green. And if you have a bad draw, you probably want silver over scout. In big money, well you don't have very much green until endgame and the reordering is usually useless since you likely wont have card draw with your scout. And silver is even more beneficial in these types of games, so again, you prefer silver to scout.

EDIT: And just to clarify scout vs coppersmith here: if you just randomly stuck a scout in your deck, it will be, on average, preferable to putting a coppersmith in there. But there's bascially never a time where buying scout is the correct strategic choice since there is almost always something better to buy, and even if there isn't buying nothing is usually preferable. Coppersmith on the other hand is on occasion the correct thing to buy, and often can be quite powerful. On average, yeah it's weak, but it's still miles ahead of scout.

[JOG]

Scout often will weaken your deck. Probably not as often as, say coppersmith, but nothing is usually preferable to scout. However, there is something which typically is a good buy which wont run out - silver. Scout gives +1 action, so you can play it for free, but unless you are drawing more than one card, its a crappy cantrip. The deck reordering is ok, but in an engine, theres basically always other pieces to buy. And by the time there isn't its probably time to green. And if you have a bad draw, you probably want silver over scout. In big money, well you don't have very much green until endgame and the reordering is usually useless since you likely wont have card draw with your scout. And silver is even more beneficial in these types of games, so again, you prefer silver to scout.

EDIT: And just to clarify scout vs coppersmith here: if you just randomly stuck a scout in your deck, it will be, on average, preferable to putting a coppersmith in there. But there's bascially never a time where buying scout is the correct strategic choice since there is almost always something better to buy, and even if there isn't buying nothing is usually preferable. Coppersmith on the other hand is on occasion the correct thing to buy, and often can be quite powerful. On average, yeah it's weak, but it's still miles ahead of scout.
[/quote]

Sometimes you want silver, sometimes it clogs engines.  Depends on your deck.  Was never arguing scout>CS based on impact.  CS can be huge on the right board, but it happens very rarely.    Scout is the correct buy more often than CS and some other cards are.  Although it's rare when either of them are correct. 

[NoMoreFun]

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?

I don't think "+1 card, +1 action, reveal the top card of your deck" would be viable at 0. If you ignore the reveal thing, which is only useful to a minor extent with a few cards (pawn, steward, mystic...), it has achieved nothing. You bought a card that did nothing because you guessed wrong, and unlike with mystic there's no self synergy. It just feels like a dull, non functional card with its interesting effect done much better on another.

I suppose I used to like it before I realized that "+1 card, +1 action" got you back to where you started and opening village or great hall was stupid.

[qmech]

Sometimes you want silver, sometimes it clogs engines.  Depends on your deck.  Was never arguing scout>CS based on impact.  CS can be huge on the right board, but it happens very rarely.    Scout is the correct buy more often than CS and some other cards are.  Although it's rare when either of them are correct. 

I have never to my recollection bought a Scout because it was a Scout and not, say, a unique card for Fairgrounds.  The two card combo Tactician/Coppersmith is alone often enough to justify buying Coppersmiths, so I see Coppersmith being a better buy than Scout far more often than the other way round.

[greatexpectations]

KC and throne room can still be very good in games without +actions or cantrips as long as thereis a good card-drawer. if smithy is on the board, a KC or throne room engine is still very viable, especially if there is trashing

also known to some as 'pulling a marin'.

[DG]

Strangely enough I played two games in a row yesterday against the bots where scout was a good card for my deck. Sometimes people can't see beyond the jokes and dismiss it too readily.

The only card I would remove would be chancellor since it just doesn't do enough. When it does do something it relies on draw luck. Scavenger does everything interesting that chancellor should do.

[TheExpressicist]

Oh, one other card I would not be sad to see go is Cultist. It gives way too much of an advantage to player 1, and it pretty much is just a race to see who collides two Cultists first. If you're P2, your opponent has about a 15% chance of hitting 2 cultists on Turn 5, which means you have two ruins in your deck before your second reshuffle. Not only has your opponent all but guaranteed himself a 3rd cultist, but now you are going to have a harder time colliding cultists and thus fall even farther behind in the Ruins race.

[Stealth Tomato]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.

Mandarin is one of my favorite cards. There are some great things you can do by buying and/or playing it in the deep endgame. Rarely playable cards are okay if they add an interesting element to the game when they do get used. Mandarin's on-buy does that.

I'd also argue you're underestimating the card's power... Gold equivalent and deck control is pretty good in BM endgames.



Anyway, I think the cards I'd get rid of are the ones that were "introductory" versions of other cards.
Woodcutter goes because it was superseded by Nomad Camp.
Chancellor -> Scavenger
Workshop -> Armory (and Ironworks)
Adventurer -> Venture

I would hesitate to remove anything else, although I'm tempted to kill Scrying Pool because it's bad and I hate it.

[KingZog3]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.

Workshop -> Armory (and Ironworks)

Should Village be taken out because all other villages do that plus more?

[LastFootnote]

Also i didn't name Chancellor because i've grown pretty attached to the card and still like buying it (if there are a few good nonterminals to make it reasonable). If Woodcutter as well as Chancellor would both be gone, i definitely wouldn't mind one of the new cards being just Chancellor with an additional buy.

Agreed. I've suggested this before, in fact. Chancellor with +1 Buy could almost certainly still cost $3. Woodcutter could then be replaced with a cantrip. The base set needs more non-terminal Actions, especially cheap ones.

[JOG]

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.

Mandarin is one of my favorite cards. There are some great things you can do by buying and/or playing it in the deep endgame. ...Mandarin's on-buy does that.

I'd also argue you're underestimating the card's power... Gold equivalent and deck control is pretty good in BM endgames.

Agree that Mandarin was a poor example.

[Polk5440]

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....