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Author Topic: What cards would you happily do without?  (Read 25078 times)

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NoMoreFun

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What cards would you happily do without?
« on: January 30, 2014, 06:41:18 am »
+1

A genie makes a deal with you: For every card you wish out of existence  a new card will be released.

Which existing dominion cards would you happily get rid of?
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Awaclus

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 06:58:40 am »
+2

All of them! Except maybe Highway, Stonemason and Masterpiece.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 07:06:54 am »
0

All Alchemy Cards exept Apprentice without the Potion clause.
The Potion
Rebuild
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 07:41:28 am »
0

Chancellor, Thief, Adventurer, maybe Chapel (though it's hard to imagine dominion without it), Feast, Council Room (Soothsayer and Governor cover everything it does and it's not good or that interesting), Woodcutter, maybe Spy

Scout, Wishing Well, Saboteur, maybe Shanty Town

Treasure Map, Pearl Diver, maybe Navigator

Transmute, Possession

Goons, Royal Seal, maybe KC (I love it but it's kind of broken like rebuild and a pain in irl games. I wish it just said "reveal an action other than a kings court". You could still do crazy things with both it and throne room, just not in every game)

Maybe Tournament

IGG, maybe Duchess

Rebuild, Maybe Vagrant (it's much better than pearl diver but it's designed to be a nothing card)

Stash, Walled Village, maybe Envoy
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:37:12 pm by NoMoreFun »
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TheExpressicist

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 08:16:06 am »
0

Ill-Gotten Gains.

A.) In most* boards, it tends to be the dominant strategy.
B.) It requires very little skill to play.
C.) The mirror match is a coin flip.

In general I try to focus on playing people better than myself so that I can get better. So I'm always frustrated when I get an IGG board because there aren't too many learning opportunities. And I'm sure my opponents are frustrated too because we have the same odds (50:50) but they have more at stake (because of their higher ranking).

[edit] *I should say "many" rather than "most". Mostly boards with no effective early trashing.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 08:32:49 am by TheExpressicist »
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GendoIkari

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 09:13:32 am »
+1

All Alchemy Cards exept Apprentice without the Potion clause.
The Potion
Rebuild

Keep the Potion clause! It will still work just perfectly and make the players wonder what cards might still be coming in the future every time they use it.
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Davio

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2014, 09:31:24 am »
+6

Just gimme 205 new cards so I can have as much fun as I did in the beginning. :)
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markusin

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2014, 09:49:12 am »
0

Feast: Depends entirely on the board. Kinda lame anyway.
Woodcutter: In the Big-Money centric Base Set, all the other +buy cards are better, and Workshop has Gardens covered already.
Scout: Too inconsequential on way too many boards.
Mining Village: I don't care if it's Intrigue's main village. It's not worth the confusion it causes. I'll settle for Shanty town.
Transmute: Too weak on too many boards.
Alchemist: When I first saw this, I thought "Strictly better than Lab? Da Hell?". This particular cheat code card does all the work for you.
Loan: At least Lookout is sure to do its job early game. This can skip your action cards to hit your only Silver.
Trade Route: Really doesn't cover any new ground, and that forced trashing really makes it drag late-game when it's supposed to be better.
Peddler: I say that bottom effect should go on a card that isn't just a free addition to your deck, like a terminal perhaps.
Scheme: This cheat code card just barely passes because at $3 it's almost always an option. If it beats you down, you should have got some yourself.
Nomad Camp: Like woodcutter, except this encourages weird early game gambits that often work against you because of regular shuffle luck.
Urchin/Mercenary: I kinda like Mercenary, but it's too swingy when you get it early and your opponent doesn't, and it counters itself.
Wandering Minstrel: Sorry guys, but this card is as good as it looks, and it really does too much magic without much effort. Edit: Oh yeah, and the resolving time adds up IRL when you play multiples.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 09:56:48 am by markusin »
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Asper

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2014, 10:27:26 am »
0

Too lame:
Woodcutter (Nomad Camp is fine. Maybe that one for 3$ then?)
Scout (I like weak cards, but it is just so weak it is almost never worth buying...)
Spy (as it is a hardly-stacking attack terminals like Rabble or Oracle work better, anyway)
Thief (Noble Brigand is different, but as it is better on allmost all boards why not just go with it?)
Adventurer (too few times better than a terminal Gold)

Too dominant:
Rebuild (bleh)
Ill-Gotten Gains
Wharf
Jack of All Trades

Just annoying me:
Governor

Honestly the strong cards bother me much more than the weak ones.

Also i didn't name Chancellor because i've grown pretty attached to the card and still like buying it (if there are a few good nonterminals to make it reasonable). If Woodcutter as well as Chancellor would both be gone, i definitely wouldn't mind one of the new cards being just Chancellor with an additional buy.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 10:30:54 am by Asper »
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TrojH

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2014, 10:38:53 am »
+1

None. When it comes to game design, I trust Donald X. way more than I trust some random genie.  ;)

I'll keep the cards I've got, thank you very much.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2014, 10:57:07 am »
+6

None. When it comes to game design, I trust Donald X. way more than I trust some random genie.  ;)

I'll keep the cards I've got, thank you very much.

I think it's far more weird that of all the things a genie could grant me, i should wish for new Dominion cards...

Genie
Action, 4$
The player to your left makes three wishes. For each of his wishes, if it is for you to draw a card, fullfill it, otherwise +1 card.
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brokoli

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 11:59:02 am »
0

I'm attached to all dominion cards... it's really hard to get rid of any of them.
But still I guess I wouldn't miss so much Witch, Mountebank, Minion, Woodcutter, Feast, Spy, Scout, Transmute, Rebuild, all promos and Alchemist.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 12:58:16 pm »
+4



Because I could always think of a scenario to use a card I want them all  :D
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AdamH

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 01:04:32 pm »
+1

Cards I would eliminate from Dominion, even if there was no replacement:

Black Market
Tournament
Knights

Cards I would only eliminate if another card would take its place:

Rebuild, and even then I'm not sure about this.

Cards that are too strong can still be pretty good as long as they're interactive (with other kingdom cards), and I'm not convinced that Rebuild isn't this way.

I mean, I really don't think eliminating cards because they're too weak or not relevant often enough is a good idea. One of my favorite things about Dominion is finding that situation where the more "humble" cards can be the star of the show. Nothing gives me more satisfaction than pulling off a win on the back of a card like Thief or Coppersmith or Rats (or Rats).

Without weak cards, then having strong cards doesn't mean anything, and you get power creep anyways.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:51:44 pm by AdamH »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 01:23:43 pm »
0

i have mentioned this on here before but one card that i think needs to go is masquerade. i think it is too strong for it's price point, it impacts far too many boards, it is highly luck dependent, and it can essentially act as an attack. the idea is cute but from a competitive dominion standpoint i really don't care for it.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 01:38:18 pm »
+1

With the exception of Rebuild, I think all Dominion's dud cards can be fixed. Rebuild should be replaced.
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Ozle

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 01:41:23 pm »
+3

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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 01:52:14 pm »
0

None. When it comes to game design, I trust Donald X. way more than I trust some random genie.  ;)

I'll keep the cards I've got, thank you very much.

With the dominion rules it's worth rolling the dice, especially with a few redundant and straight up bad cards.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 01:59:46 pm »
+1

i have mentioned this on here before but one card that i think needs to go is masquerade. i think it is too strong for it's price point, it impacts far too many boards, it is highly luck dependent, and it can essentially act as an attack. the idea is cute but from a competitive dominion standpoint i really don't care for it.

Masquerade is masterful design!  Yes, it's powerful trashing, but you have to be careful not to overdo it else you risk passing good cards, so there's skill involved.  And when is it good enough to ignore junking attacks?

I doubt it was designed this way (I suspect you have "passing is fun, let's give you more choice about what to pass and let you trash anything you didn't want), but it's a great example of a self-limiting card.

*goes off to check Secret Histories*
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 02:01:33 pm »
0

With the exception of Rebuild, I think all Dominion's dud cards can be fixed. Rebuild should be replaced.

Some of them have been (eg chancellor and thief), but the originals remain.

Also if Mystic came out first, would you be happy to see Wishing Well? Some cards are good because they're basic and simple {vanilla village should exist, for example), but with those 2 they're the same complexity, one "works" and the other doesn't.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 02:21:26 pm »
+1

Wishing Well is very different from Mystic, and I think it's supposed to be.  Wishing Well is supposed to be about probability/guessing based on the contents of your draw pile, while Mystic is supposed to be self-synergizing and mostly about knowing the top card of your deck.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 02:26:58 pm »
+1

Also if Mystic came out first, would you be happy to see Wishing Well? Some cards are good because they're basic and simple {vanilla village should exist, for example), but with those 2 they're the same complexity, one "works" and the other doesn't.

It's not "one 'works' and the other doesn't"; it's one's strong enough to cost $5 and the other isn't. If Highway came out first, would you be happy to see Bridge?
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2014, 02:33:19 pm »
+1

Top of my list would be Sea Hag. It's not very interesting mechanically, and it generally just slows the pace of the game to a crawl, particularly in multiplayer, but it's usually too strong to ignore, and adds a lot of early game variance in what cards get flipped. 
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 02:47:04 pm »
0

Quote
It's not "one 'works' and the other doesn't"; it's one's strong enough to cost $5 and the other isn't. If Highway came out first, would you be happy to see Bridge?

They're pretty different uses of the same mechanic. I'd put bridge alongside Goons and Merchant Guild and Haggler, while Highway is better for combos.

Wishing Well and Mystic are both non terminals that are very good if you guess correctly, but Mystic actually has combos including with itself, while Wishing Well is much harder the combo out of what seems like bad design and is basically a harmless card that rewards luck, but it's the same price as Silver and can't fill the dubious pearl diver/vagrant niche.
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2014, 02:59:58 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.  Although I'd still probably get rid of scout just because cards like cartographer, crossroads, and vagrant do similar things and are so much better.

Possession because often it's a race to playing the most possessions while having a weak deck, and
stalemates are possible.  It could maybe be fixed by allowing only 1 play per turn, like tactician or outpost.

Possibly urchin and tournament because they're too swingy.

I could see IGG, JOAT and rebuild because they are the dominant strategy a little too often.  I would say IGG is dominant strategy more often than even rebuild.  And, IGG rush is much simpler to play than a straightforward rebuild strategy.  I would probably keep JOAT.  It seems like games in which only JOAT and treasure buys is best strategy are rare.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2014, 03:04:24 pm »
0

Wishing Well is very different from Mystic, and I think it's supposed to be.  Wishing Well is supposed to be about probability/guessing based on the contents of your draw pile, while Mystic is supposed to be self-synergizing and mostly about knowing the top card of your deck.

Mystic can be about probability too, it's just less swingy. Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

I really think Mystic is a "fixed" card, and is just in doubt because the original isn't that weak and the prices are very different.

On the other hand I have no problem with both Oracle and Catacombs existing, mainly because of their price differences (as well as the little attack/when trash bonuses). Maybe I just dislike guessing games, and that's all wishing well is most of the time (even if you can get better at guessing).
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2014, 03:12:43 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2014, 03:29:26 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2014, 04:46:36 pm »
+1

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.


Scout is bad in all of those situations.
1. You don't need scout with these cards - just play them on themselves, you have plenty of actions.
2. This is not worth the effort. You'd be better off getting a different card.
3. I would rather have another great hall or crossroads, in the rare event that a strategy based on this is actually good....

I will say it's probably less crippling to your deck to have a random scout than a lot of other cards in a lot of games, but being less bad doesn't make it a better card - bad enough to not gain is more or less the worst you can go.

Scout's best use is definitely with Scrying pool, in some weird cases with limited villages or something. But it's pretty rare.

Edit: Coppersmith is really nice in big engines (huge money source), which ok, comes up pretty rare, but not THAT rare. And some other very edge cases. And Mandarin is actually just good with Big Money, gives a decent money source for some engines (and the put-back ability can be a boon for setting up your next turn in these cases). They certainly aren't great, but they definitely have their uses.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 04:48:33 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2014, 08:41:28 pm »
+5

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2014, 08:49:07 pm »
+1

Top of my list would be Sea Hag. It's not very interesting mechanically, and it generally just slows the pace of the game to a crawl, particularly in multiplayer, but it's usually too strong to ignore, and adds a lot of early game variance in what cards get flipped.

what if sea hag instructed (obviously exact wording would differ)
"opponents reveal the top card of their deck. if it's a curse, they discard it. if it's not a curse, they put it back. opponents gain a curse on top of their deck". that dumps the swinginess of what gets flipped, but it saves you from the problem of getting triple sea hagged and getting three curses on top.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2014, 09:29:37 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.

KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.

KC and throne room can still be very good in games without +actions or cantrips as long as thereis a good card-drawer. if smithy is on the board, a KC or throne room engine is still very viable, especially if there is trashing
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2014, 12:12:15 am »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable. Scout's probably playable more often than any of those 4 cards.

There is no card less playable than scout. Transmute is close, but the other three you listed I've had a lot of games where they shine, or at least come in handy. And any card that can even rarely do really cool things (like the Mandarin/Horn of Plenty trick) I wouldn't want to cut.


KC, throne room, procession scout in games with no villages or cantrips to get + actions.
Scout, and then herald, wishing well or mystic.
Scout with great hall or crossroads.
Not saying it's a good card, just would rather have it more often than those other 4 cards.
Also not saying there's never anything cool you could to with those other 4 cards, just that I would rather get rid of them so more usable, more interesting cards are
in more kingdoms.


Scout is bad in all of those situations.
1. You don't need scout with these cards - just play them on themselves, you have plenty of actions.
2. This is not worth the effort. You'd be better off getting a different card.
3. I would rather have another great hall or crossroads, in the rare event that a strategy based on this is actually good....

I will say it's probably less crippling to your deck to have a random scout than a lot of other cards in a lot of games, but being less bad doesn't make it a better card - bad enough to not gain is more or less the worst you can go.

Scout's best use is definitely with Scrying pool, in some weird cases with limited villages or something. But it's pretty rare.

Edit: Coppersmith is really nice in big engines (huge money source), which ok, comes up pretty rare, but not THAT rare. And some other very edge cases. And Mandarin is actually just good with Big Money, gives a decent money source for some engines (and the put-back ability can be a boon for setting up your next turn in these cases). They certainly aren't great, but they definitely have their uses.

The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.

Herald and wishing well piles often run quickly.  If there are no other enablers, it could be the best option to keep an engine running. 
In an ironmonger game, it could guarantee + actions if there are no villages.
They could help activate conspirators.  1 or 2 might be a better choice than an 8th market square. 
In big end turn games (HoP, goons, highway or bridge) you often don't want extra treasure, and drawing cards pile out, so with no other options, the best choice is scout.
They could stop an apothecary engine from clogging. 
In the (rare) scout, great hall example you would need scouts to get any benefit from the great halls right?
In the (very rare, edge case) scout, crossroads example a scout or 2 would be more useful than a 4th crossroads, if the goal is to draw deck, right?
Agree on TR, KC procession.  Didn't think that one through. 

The topic of the thread was cards you could happily do without.  I chose transmute, harvest, coppersmith and mandarin because of how often they are ignored and how often they add nothing at all to kingdoms.  Scout was used to illustrate how rarely those cards are used.  I could happily do without scout also.  I understand that there are games where these cards are playable and can even shine.  I'd just rather not have them and have more kingdoms where all/most cards are playable.
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jonts26

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2014, 12:55:44 am »
+1


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2014, 01:13:44 am »
0

I'm sure this has been discussed, but while we're on it, what would be a minimum change required to make Scout a viable card? 5 cards instead of 4? Curses as well as Victory Cards? Make it a cantrip? What about any card that is a Victory Card or $2 or less, to make it combo awesomely with Bridge etc? Maybe it's a whole different card then.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2014, 01:18:49 am »
+1

I'm sure this has been discussed, but while we're on it, what would be a minimum change required to make Scout a viable card? 5 cards instead of 4? Curses as well as Victory Cards? Make it a cantrip? What about any card that is a Victory Card or $2 or less, to make it combo awesomely with Bridge etc? Maybe it's a whole different card then.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4957.0
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2014, 01:22:43 am »
0


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

Scout does almost nothing for your deck- understood.  Useful cards for your deck are unavailable (maybe piles are out, maybe you don't have the money).  Should you buy nothing, scout or something that could possibly weaken your deck?  Probably scout.  Does this happen more often than situations in which it is correct to buy coppersmith or transmute? I think so.
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jonts26

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2014, 01:48:17 am »
+3


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

Scout does almost nothing for your deck- understood.  Useful cards for your deck are unavailable (maybe piles are out, maybe you don't have the money).  Should you buy nothing, scout or something that could possibly weaken your deck?  Probably scout.  Does this happen more often than situations in which it is correct to buy coppersmith or transmute? I think so.

Scout often will weaken your deck. Probably not as often as, say coppersmith, but nothing is usually preferable to scout. However, there is something which typically is a good buy which wont run out - silver. Scout gives +1 action, so you can play it for free, but unless you are drawing more than one card, its a crappy cantrip. The deck reordering is ok, but in an engine, theres basically always other pieces to buy. And by the time there isn't its probably time to green. And if you have a bad draw, you probably want silver over scout. In big money, well you don't have very much green until endgame and the reordering is usually useless since you likely wont have card draw with your scout. And silver is even more beneficial in these types of games, so again, you prefer silver to scout.

EDIT: And just to clarify scout vs coppersmith here: if you just randomly stuck a scout in your deck, it will be, on average, preferable to putting a coppersmith in there. But there's bascially never a time where buying scout is the correct strategic choice since there is almost always something better to buy, and even if there isn't buying nothing is usually preferable. Coppersmith on the other hand is on occasion the correct thing to buy, and often can be quite powerful. On average, yeah it's weak, but it's still miles ahead of scout.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 01:53:49 am by jonts26 »
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2014, 02:53:29 am »
0



Scout often will weaken your deck. Probably not as often as, say coppersmith, but nothing is usually preferable to scout. However, there is something which typically is a good buy which wont run out - silver. Scout gives +1 action, so you can play it for free, but unless you are drawing more than one card, its a crappy cantrip. The deck reordering is ok, but in an engine, theres basically always other pieces to buy. And by the time there isn't its probably time to green. And if you have a bad draw, you probably want silver over scout. In big money, well you don't have very much green until endgame and the reordering is usually useless since you likely wont have card draw with your scout. And silver is even more beneficial in these types of games, so again, you prefer silver to scout.

EDIT: And just to clarify scout vs coppersmith here: if you just randomly stuck a scout in your deck, it will be, on average, preferable to putting a coppersmith in there. But there's bascially never a time where buying scout is the correct strategic choice since there is almost always something better to buy, and even if there isn't buying nothing is usually preferable. Coppersmith on the other hand is on occasion the correct thing to buy, and often can be quite powerful. On average, yeah it's weak, but it's still miles ahead of scout.
[/quote]

Sometimes you want silver, sometimes it clogs engines.  Depends on your deck.  Was never arguing scout>CS based on impact.  CS can be huge on the right board, but it happens very rarely.    Scout is the correct buy more often than CS and some other cards are.  Although it's rare when either of them are correct. 
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2014, 03:02:32 am »
0

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?

I don't think "+1 card, +1 action, reveal the top card of your deck" would be viable at 0. If you ignore the reveal thing, which is only useful to a minor extent with a few cards (pawn, steward, mystic...), it has achieved nothing. You bought a card that did nothing because you guessed wrong, and unlike with mystic there's no self synergy. It just feels like a dull, non functional card with its interesting effect done much better on another.

I suppose I used to like it before I realized that "+1 card, +1 action" got you back to where you started and opening village or great hall was stupid.
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qmech

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2014, 03:45:08 am »
0

Sometimes you want silver, sometimes it clogs engines.  Depends on your deck.  Was never arguing scout>CS based on impact.  CS can be huge on the right board, but it happens very rarely.    Scout is the correct buy more often than CS and some other cards are.  Although it's rare when either of them are correct. 

I have never to my recollection bought a Scout because it was a Scout and not, say, a unique card for Fairgrounds.  The two card combo Tactician/Coppersmith is alone often enough to justify buying Coppersmiths, so I see Coppersmith being a better buy than Scout far more often than the other way round.
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greatexpectations

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2014, 08:32:24 am »
+4

KC and throne room can still be very good in games without +actions or cantrips as long as thereis a good card-drawer. if smithy is on the board, a KC or throne room engine is still very viable, especially if there is trashing

also known to some as 'pulling a marin'.
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DG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2014, 08:49:28 am »
0

Strangely enough I played two games in a row yesterday against the bots where scout was a good card for my deck. Sometimes people can't see beyond the jokes and dismiss it too readily.

The only card I would remove would be chancellor since it just doesn't do enough. When it does do something it relies on draw luck. Scavenger does everything interesting that chancellor should do.
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TheExpressicist

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2014, 11:24:06 am »
0

Oh, one other card I would not be sad to see go is Cultist. It gives way too much of an advantage to player 1, and it pretty much is just a race to see who collides two Cultists first. If you're P2, your opponent has about a 15% chance of hitting 2 cultists on Turn 5, which means you have two ruins in your deck before your second reshuffle. Not only has your opponent all but guaranteed himself a 3rd cultist, but now you are going to have a harder time colliding cultists and thus fall even farther behind in the Ruins race.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2014, 12:03:54 pm »
+2

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.

Mandarin is one of my favorite cards. There are some great things you can do by buying and/or playing it in the deep endgame. Rarely playable cards are okay if they add an interesting element to the game when they do get used. Mandarin's on-buy does that.

I'd also argue you're underestimating the card's power... Gold equivalent and deck control is pretty good in BM endgames.



Anyway, I think the cards I'd get rid of are the ones that were "introductory" versions of other cards.
Woodcutter goes because it was superseded by Nomad Camp.
Chancellor -> Scavenger
Workshop -> Armory (and Ironworks)
Adventurer -> Venture

I would hesitate to remove anything else, although I'm tempted to kill Scrying Pool because it's bad and I hate it.
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KingZog3

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2014, 12:08:22 pm »
+1

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.
Workshop -> Armory (and Ironworks)

Should Village be taken out because all other villages do that plus more?
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LastFootnote

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2014, 12:21:49 pm »
0

Also i didn't name Chancellor because i've grown pretty attached to the card and still like buying it (if there are a few good nonterminals to make it reasonable). If Woodcutter as well as Chancellor would both be gone, i definitely wouldn't mind one of the new cards being just Chancellor with an additional buy.

Agreed. I've suggested this before, in fact. Chancellor with +1 Buy could almost certainly still cost $3. Woodcutter could then be replaced with a cantrip. The base set needs more non-terminal Actions, especially cheap ones.
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2014, 12:56:35 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.

Mandarin is one of my favorite cards. There are some great things you can do by buying and/or playing it in the deep endgame. ...Mandarin's on-buy does that.

I'd also argue you're underestimating the card's power... Gold equivalent and deck control is pretty good in BM endgames.



Agree that Mandarin was a poor example.
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Polk5440

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2014, 01:51:16 pm »
0


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2014, 02:10:08 pm »
0

Harvest, transmute, mandarin, coppersmith because it's so rare that they're playable.
Workshop -> Armory (and Ironworks)

Should Village be taken out because all other villages do that plus more?

I would argue no, because it adds something fundamental to the game. Village has an opportunity cost (anything else, essentially) that none of the upgraded villages have.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2014, 02:19:46 pm »
0

I'm concerned that there's insufficient hating on tournament in here.

That said, we've had lots of threads about which cards we like and dislike, and the interesting question this thread asks is: which cards bore you? Hmm... Spy. It takes too much time to resolve and adds nothing to the game.

Edit: I like all the other cards except tournament and scrying pool, and I'd like scrying pool if it didn't spy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:21:03 pm by ehunt »
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JOG

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2014, 02:40:47 pm »
0


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
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Holger

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2014, 02:57:18 pm »
+1

Also a success with mystic is a truly formidable card, while a hit wishing well is just a cheaper lab. When you fail, mystic's still a silver, while wishing well may as well have not existed.

So, Mystic is a $5 card that when it misses has a $3 effect and when it hits has a $7 effect, whereas Wishing Well is a $3 card that when it hits has a $5 effect and when it misses has a $1 effect?

I don't think "+1 card, +1 action, reveal the top card of your deck" would be viable at 0. If you ignore the reveal thing, which is only useful to a minor extent with a few cards (pawn, steward, mystic...), it has achieved nothing. You bought a card that did nothing because you guessed wrong, and unlike with mystic there's no self synergy. It just feels like a dull, non functional card with its interesting effect done much better on another.

I suppose I used to like it before I realized that "+1 card, +1 action" got you back to where you started and opening village or great hall was stupid.

I don't like Wishing Well either, but I think a "failed WW" would be viable (if boring) at $1. Just being a "do-nothing" cantrip lets it actually do something positive with a big number of other cards (Goons, Conspirator, Peddler, Scrying Pool/Herald, Gardens, cards that care about variety, TR/KC/Proc., TfB, defense against trashing/deck-inspection attacks...). While a $0 cantrip pile would make Goons even more overpowered.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2014, 04:44:55 pm »
+3


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
So, there aren't all that many times where you don't want anything that costs 4 or less. Yeah, it has to be better than silver, but it also has to be better than all the other cheap cards, too. So you are building an engine, so much that you don't want silver, but there aren't any other engine components you want that cost less than $5? I mean, said engines are fairly likely to not be good. But also, why don't you want silver? Because it doesn't draw anything. Scout needs to be at least draw-neutral to not similarly be a clog, which means that in this super-engine-y deck, you have >25% victory cards? Really? This just, like, never happens. And if you're worried about a 3 pile ending (and if there are a couple of other empty piles of cheap cards leading to the reason you don't have anything else to buy, you probably should be), you really ought to be better positioning yourself for said ending, which scout certainly doesn't accomplish. Seriously, if you're so tied up, nothing is definitely better than scout - you just aren't going to have that many victory cards to draw. There are some 'interactions with other cards', but the problem is that these other cards are most often competing, and the interaction is really marginal to try to jump through so many hoops for.

Coppersmith definitely has a lot more situations where it is useful: Basically any engine where you aren't trashing copper, have a spare action, and usually you want +buy. So... tactician-based engines, wharf-based, council room, margrave, apothecary, as well as [any village]+[any smithy variant]+[any card that gives +buy]. Well, okay, it isn't as good as that sounds, because there is usually something better to do - but there's a reasonable amount of the time where it produces money better than any card this side of bank, and that is something - and there isn't ALWAYS something better to do.

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2014, 06:38:46 pm »
+1

Coppersmith is nice if you want to take a chance and get a very expensive card early. if you are lucky, it can buy you a Province by turn 3 (Tournament), or get you a Forge, Bank, King's Court, overpay for Doctor to trash your Coppers... I don't usually see it as viable card apart from that, but some cards that care about and/or give you Coppers work, too.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:40:09 pm by Asper »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2014, 10:54:20 pm »
0


The argument was that scout is playable more often than some other cards.  It's understood that it adds little to decks. Should it be bought more often than transmute, harvest or coppersmith?  I think so.


You'll find that pretty much every high level player will disagree with this statement. Well, maybe not about transmute, but the others for sure. WanderingWinder gave a good quick explanation on why this is true in his post. But to discuss the points you made, basically most uses you give scout could be fulfilled by ANY action that gives +1 action. And the fact is, the other cards will do additional beneficial things. So for scout to be useful in any of those situations it has to be literally the only card with +action. And if thats the case, there is most likely a better strategy using big money. As for scout/great hall/crossroads/etc, this is one of those things that seems like it should be good at first, but experience shows that it really just doesnt.

As for coppersmith and mandarin, well theres a lot of cards which are less often useful. Manadrin is an all around pretty average card. Maybe you should try buying it more? Coppersmith is bought less often, but can be quite strong when it is. And I guess harvest is sort of boring mechanically. It's not the weakest card, but I can see an argument for cutting it based on the blandness.

I assume you know that you are probably talking about the JOG that is the current #2 on the Goko leaderboard....

But on the other hand.... Scout more playable than Coppersmith??? Not in my book! I also go out of my way to use Harvest. But I lose a lot when I do, so, there's that....

Just trying to clarify my position one more time here. 

The times when coppersmith is the correct buy strengthen deck much, much more on average than the times
when it is correct to buy scout.  My argument is that it is correct to buy scout more often than coppersmith. Simplest situation: engine deck with no other options (useful cards out, concerned about 3 pile, or not enough money left over), and silver might slow you down.  Do you buy scout or nothing?  I said probably scout.  Best argument I read against this was buying nothing is probably best.  I could be wrong, but I still don't see it.  If you draw a green card it's a delayed cantrip and about even.  In the end game, it's probably better than a cantrip a lot of the time.  There's also deck order changing which could help your current turn, and possible interactions with other cards.
So, there aren't all that many times where you don't want anything that costs 4 or less. Yeah, it has to be better than silver, but it also has to be better than all the other cheap cards, too. So you are building an engine, so much that you don't want silver, but there aren't any other engine components you want that cost less than $5? I mean, said engines are fairly likely to not be good. But also, why don't you want silver? Because it doesn't draw anything. Scout needs to be at least draw-neutral to not similarly be a clog, which means that in this super-engine-y deck, you have >25% victory cards? Really? This just, like, never happens. And if you're worried about a 3 pile ending (and if there are a couple of other empty piles of cheap cards leading to the reason you don't have anything else to buy, you probably should be), you really ought to be better positioning yourself for said ending, which scout certainly doesn't accomplish. Seriously, if you're so tied up, nothing is definitely better than scout - you just aren't going to have that many victory cards to draw. There are some 'interactions with other cards', but the problem is that these other cards are most often competing, and the interaction is really marginal to try to jump through so many hoops for.

Coppersmith definitely has a lot more situations where it is useful: Basically any engine where you aren't trashing copper, have a spare action, and usually you want +buy. So... tactician-based engines, wharf-based, council room, margrave, apothecary, as well as [any village]+[any smithy variant]+[any card that gives +buy]. Well, okay, it isn't as good as that sounds, because there is usually something better to do - but there's a reasonable amount of the time where it produces money better than any card this side of bank, and that is something - and there isn't ALWAYS something better to do.

Very good arguments here.  Now think correct scout buys are even more rare than I thought.  Would have given this up sooner, but other arguments focused on strength of correct buys, instead of number.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2014, 11:44:34 pm »
+1

Coppersmith is nice if you want to take a chance and get a very expensive card early. if you are lucky, it can buy you a Province by turn 3 (Tournament), or get you a Forge, Bank, King's Court, overpay for Doctor to trash your Coppers... I don't usually see it as viable card apart from that, but some cards that care about and/or give you Coppers work, too.

Coppersmith is to Bank as Moneylender is to Counterfeit.

I really don't see the problem with Coppersmith at all personally; it's a unique card that early game usually works well enough, and works even better if you tailor your strategy to it (big hands). It's sometimes hard to work with, but it has its niche, and it does its niche very well. Pulling off a Coppersmith strategy is extremely rewarding.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2014, 01:44:35 am »
0

Coppersmith is nice if you want to take a chance and get a very expensive card early. if you are lucky, it can buy you a Province by turn 3 (Tournament), or get you a Forge, Bank, King's Court, overpay for Doctor to trash your Coppers... I don't usually see it as viable card apart from that, but some cards that care about and/or give you Coppers work, too.

It's a fun card if you can pull some sort of KC/Apothecary/something with +Buys/Coppersmith megaengine. KC coppersmith, who needs gold?
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2014, 02:26:10 am »
+1

King's Court, Tourniment, Sea Hag, Possession

Cards that I like but I think really need fixing:
Rebuild, Peddler (should never cost $0), and I think combining Chancellor and Woodcutter is a good idea.

It's fun to (try to) make good use of cards that are rarely useful which makes me like Scout.

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2014, 08:57:48 am »
+1

The more I play the more I can't say King's Court or Goons. I used to hate Goons, but these cards have too many fun interactions to hate. Same with Possession, but I can understand why it's annoying.

The only real cards that I hate are Rebuild, Tournament and Minion. And even Tournament is only a moderate hatred. Minion though is like pure rage when I play with it. It never seems to hit their bad hands, and always the hand when I get my good cads is when I'm hit with a Minion, only to draw a bunch of dead cards.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2014, 10:30:02 am »
+3

Well, first I would get rid of any attacks or cards that involve player interaction, since those are obviously a bad idea. Then I would define a narrow range of power for each price point based on vanilla bonuses and get rid of any card that fell outside that so there aren't any cards that are situational or exciting. Then I would implement a rule that every time you shuffled your deck, you got to arrange it how you like, so that the game would be as fair as possible.
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dondon151

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2014, 10:44:46 am »
+1

Every card in Dominion is situational.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2014, 03:11:03 pm »
+1

Rebuild (coinflip), Baron (coinflip, and dead card in shelter games), Duchess (doesn't do anything), Pearldriver (doesnt do anything), Masquerade (worst card ever made, "f*** everything), Scout, Transfusion (too weak), Possession (more a personal dislike, I don't think it's really a bad card), Coppersmith (complicated)

but really, i would rather remove just masquerade than every other card on the list.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:01:58 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2014, 03:19:24 pm »
+1

I would only get rid of Tournament and Rebuild.  Rebuild because it usually dominates, and Tournament because I just plain don't like it with it's luck.
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KingZog3

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2014, 04:00:33 pm »
+1

I would only get rid of Tournament and Rebuild.  Rebuild because it usually dominates, and Tournament because I just plain don't like it with it's luck.

This is pretty much the first post that sums up what I think about dominion cards. They are all good, and the only ones that are bad are the one's that are mostly coin flips.

Of course it's all personal taste in what's fun, but at the rate people are naming cards here it seems like there won't be any left by the 5th page of this thread (Depending on your page length obviously). Amazingly people are naming cards that are some of the most interesting cards and not cards like Harvest, Counting House (I mean if you're going with the whole too weak thing, why hasn't Counting House been mentioned?), Goons (I mentioned Goons though). How is Masquerade not fun? Did you get burned by it with a militia on the board? How is workshop not fun? Like, how? Would dominion really be better off without it? Because that should be the criteria.

Here's the new question. It isn't "What cards do you think suck?" it's "What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?" I don't think workshop will qualify for that.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2014, 04:19:56 pm »
0

What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?

I guess what I would say is that beyond maybe fixing up Rebuild and Scout, I wouldn't want to remove any cards unless they were replaced by better ones- there does need to be a finite number of cards, and there isn't an infinite amount of time for playtesting so the selection is never going to be perfect, but I think taking out even the most boring or most swingy cards without bringing something else in to replace them reduces the quality of Dominion as a game.

Quick edit: But yeah I don't know how people come away with the idea that Masquerade and Wandering Minstrel of all cards are overpowered or unfun. Masquerade is probably one of the best anti-cursing cards in the game and Wandering Minstrel gives really good support for engines but who the hell doesn't like engines?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 04:21:58 pm by A Drowned Kernel »
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markusin

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2014, 04:51:12 pm »
+1

What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?

I guess what I would say is that beyond maybe fixing up Rebuild and Scout, I wouldn't want to remove any cards unless they were replaced by better ones- there does need to be a finite number of cards, and there isn't an infinite amount of time for playtesting so the selection is never going to be perfect, but I think taking out even the most boring or most swingy cards without bringing something else in to replace them reduces the quality of Dominion as a game.

Quick edit: But yeah I don't know how people come away with the idea that Masquerade and Wandering Minstrel of all cards are overpowered or unfun. Masquerade is probably one of the best anti-cursing cards in the game and Wandering Minstrel gives really good support for engines but who the hell doesn't like engines?
The assumption in the OP is that the chosen cards get replaced by some other card. There's no guarantee that the replacing cards will be better, and it's hard to weight the option when you can't see the replacing card in front of you. I also wouldn't want to remove any cards without replacement.

While I don't prioritize replacing it all that much, I maintain that Wandering Minstrel provides too much support for engines, all by simply amassing them. Combined village and mini-Cartographer for $4. Well, I guess that's not such a bad thing in itself, but then there's all that effect resolving time.

I imagine some people get really annoyed when they have to give a good card away with Masquerade. Still, it's application is rather open ended and it's dangerous to get too many.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2014, 05:21:38 pm »
+1

The only three I would consider are Black Market, Tournament, and Possession.  The first two allow you to acquire unique cards, which is anathema to the original spirit of Dominion, the key point of which is that everyone has the same cards available.  Possession I could do without not because of its power, but entirely because of confusion.  Real-life games are confused by it; every online version so far has had glitches surrounding it.  It's just easier to skip it.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2014, 05:27:05 pm »
0

Scout, duh.
Black market, because it's too annoying IRL.
Doctor.
Mandarin, because Count exists.

That's it.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2014, 07:16:16 pm »
0

Quote
How is Masquerade not fun?

i can see why you would find it fun, but the thread says "what cards would you happily do without?" not "what cards do you think are badly designed". I hate the fact that it makes you pass good card sometimes; passing even just a village is about the worst feeling i can get from playing dominion. and contrary to other (equally or even more) luck dependend cards,  I don't feel good if it works out either, instead, if my opponent has to pass a good card to me, I just feel sorry for him. it's a loss-loss. it only causes frustration. rebuild can make you lose games too, but it doesn't force you to make presents to your opponent.

i wish it were just "+2 cards, you may trash a card from your hand."

Quote
"What cards would make Dominion a better game if they were removed?"
if there's no replacement: rebuild, counting house, duchess, pearl driver, transfusion, scout, maybe chancellor. first is uninteresting and dominates, and the other ones usually just occupy a slot without doing anything
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:22:04 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2014, 07:29:21 pm »
+2

Mandarin, because Count exists.
They can give you the same on-play effect, but you buy them for totally different reasons.  Mandarin's key feature is the on-gain, Count's key feature is the trashing, sometimes the Duchy-gaining.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2014, 07:45:09 pm »
0

Mandarin, because Count exists.
They can give you the same on-play effect, but you buy them for totally different reasons.  Mandarin's key feature is the on-gain, Count's key feature is the trashing, sometimes the Duchy-gaining.

i think his point is that count is strictly better once you have it. that's the closest thing to a really strictkly better card that we have
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:47:03 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2014, 07:50:14 pm »
0

Mandarin, because Count exists.
They can give you the same on-play effect, but you buy them for totally different reasons.  Mandarin's key feature is the on-gain, Count's key feature is the trashing, sometimes the Duchy-gaining.

i think his point is that count is strictly better once you have it. that's the closest thing to a really strictkly better card that we have
I think jaybeez's point is that you buy Mandarin because of the on-gain ability and Count because of the trashing, so they are totally different cards. I mean, that's like saying that Silver is strictly better than Ill-Gotten Gains once you have it, and claiming that IGG shouldn't exist because of that. And I'm pretty sure that Noble Brigand vs. Thief is much closer to being strictly better.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 07:51:33 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2014, 08:01:01 pm »
+2

I'm concerned that there's insufficient hating on tournament in here.

I love Tournament. The luck factor can be infuriating, but I recently played a Colony game where neither player ever took a Colony/Platinum due to Tournament and related factors. That's too interesting to see gone from the game.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2014, 08:24:24 pm »
0

Quote
I think jaybeez's point is that you buy Mandarin because of the on-gain ability and Count because of the trashing, so they are totally different cards. I mean, that's like saying that Silver is strictly better than Ill-Gotten Gains once you have it, and claiming that IGG shouldn't exist because of that. And I'm pretty sure that Noble Brigand vs. Thief is much closer to being strictly better.

i know that, i didn't say mandarin is strictly worse. still, there's something to it, because once you have it, mandarin is truly, entierly worse than count, and that's unique in the game, whether that's a problem is debatable. igg is not actually worse than silver, there are quite a few edge cases where you rather have igg, including every trash for benefit, bank, gardens, and counterfeit.

and thief at least has some rare platinum games in which it shines

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2014, 08:39:33 pm »
0

and thief at least has some rare platinum games in which it shines

Even though Thief rarely shines, there are some games where it's very important. I played an IRL, Base Set only 3-player game recently where the Thief pile sold out. There was no virtual Coin on the board. One player bought 5 or 6 of them. I ended up winning because I built an engine that played my two Thieves more often and more effectively than my opponents (through Spies and Throne Rooms). Importantly, if I hadn't bought those two Thieves, there is no way I would have won. Any Treasures I bought would have been gone before I got to use them. I had to supplement that with Treasures stolen from my opponents.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 09:28:27 am by LastFootnote »
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markusin

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2014, 08:58:28 pm »
0

I'm concerned that there's insufficient hating on tournament in here.

I love Tournament. The luck factor can be infuriating, but I recently played a Colony game where neither player ever took a Colony/Platinum due to Tournament and related factors. That's too interesting to see gone from the game.
I personally like Tournament as well, but I feel that it isn't too newb-friendly. Basically, players need to play with Tournament often before they can get a good feel for it.

It can really spice up Colony games though.
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2014, 06:49:04 am »
0

Quote
I think jaybeez's point is that you buy Mandarin because of the on-gain ability and Count because of the trashing, so they are totally different cards. I mean, that's like saying that Silver is strictly better than Ill-Gotten Gains once you have it, and claiming that IGG shouldn't exist because of that. And I'm pretty sure that Noble Brigand vs. Thief is much closer to being strictly better.

i know that, i didn't say mandarin is strictly worse. still, there's something to it, because once you have it, mandarin is truly, entierly worse than count, and that's unique in the game, whether that's a problem is debatable. igg is not actually worse than silver, there are quite a few edge cases where you rather have igg, including every trash for benefit, bank, gardens, and counterfeit.

and thief at least has some rare platinum games in which it shines

IGG isn't a very good comparison, but think Masterpiece instead. It's worse than Silver in any respect once it's in your deck, and still nobody would claim it's actually always worse.

Mandarin has a unique ability that makes buying it for this effect alone worthwile sometimes, just like Inn. Buying a Mandarin usually (discard attacks aside) means you can spend just as much or more money next turn, which not only allows set-ups for expensive buys but also lowers it's opportunity cost by a lot (for example, you can open Mandarin and still buy Count after that).
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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2014, 09:40:10 pm »
+1

Hahaha! I wouldn't give up any of them, with the possible exception of Scout. Maybe Rebuild.

Here is a love letter to the cards others hate:

1. Chancellor: Better than silver if the only terminal, teaches you the value of a good reshuffle. I've played a fun Chancellor-BM game before. Obsolete if the more interesting Scavenger is on the board, but that doesn't happen too often.
2. Tournament: Overpowered? Perhaps. Still, I've always had a weakness for its lovely $4 Peddler effect. It helps you build up your deck in an excellent way.
3. Coppersmith: It might go 20 games without working, but the 21st will be a joy. Especially with King's Court. And speaking of which...
4. King's Court: Overpowered? Certainly. But much like Chapel, and unlike Rebuild, it's overpowered in a synergistic way. It makes your other cards more interesting, not less. Pawn matters more when KC is on the board. So does Coppersmith. The only cards that would be left out of an engine due to KC's presence are the villages, but even then the Festivals and Worker's Villages and Plazas still benefit tremendously from it.
5. Goons: Just as synergistic as KC, maybe more. It's nice as a BM card, if you play 1 a turn. It's only obnoxiously powerful in an engine... but it works best in engines that are strong to begin with! It's a non-drawing terminal, which makes the villages more important. It's a discard attack, which makes draw more important. Heck, the mid-game copper purchases make trashing continue to serve a purpose in your deck up until the very end! Once again, it's OP, but highly synergistic.
6. Possession: It's... actually kinda awful if you lose to this, especially with a megaturn deck.

Okay, so maybe Possession really does suck. Still, I'd keep most of Dominion's cards. I'd gladly keep them!
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serakfalcon

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2014, 12:15:59 am »
+1

My list is kind of different partially because most of the hated on cards are either swingy a la tournament or very technical a la rebuild / possession. To be honest I like both swingy and technical stuff, so the cards I find boring are the ones I rarely use and extremely rarely contribute to a productive deck.

The cards I dislike the most:
Mostly the cards I dislike are cards that do little to change the game, are rarely useful and in general only make the kingdom have '1 slot less' in terms of options.

1) Scout: for being Scout. Seriously Scout.
2) Woodcutter: Worse than silver if it weren't for the +Buy, which is so rarely useful that I really wouldn't mind not having it.
3) Chancellor: good card management allows you to control the reshuffle enough that chancellor rarely makes a difference, in general it is a terminal silver.

Hated on cards I love:

Tournament, i love the rush for provinces, even if it is swingy.
Possession: Possession takes everything about Dominion and turns it on it's head. It is a very technical card and a lot of fun to play with, once you realize that your deck isn't your deck and your opponent's deck isn't their deck. it's all very zen, really.
Masquerade: I have no idea why anyone would dislike masquerade. its one of the best anti-junkers and forces your opponent to keep some junk in their deck lest they be forced to give up a good card (If you're frustrated about passing a good card it's because you didn't understand this point: You can't go ultra-thin if your opponent is relying on masquerade). In short, it's a great card for technical playing.
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itchiko

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Re: What cards would you happily do without?
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2014, 09:32:11 am »
+1

I could do without Black Market because it is:
1) Badly worded (buy phase in the middle of an action phase)
2) Unfair (Fair being determined by both player having the same game play opportunity)
But Mostly:
3) Unplayable in IRL once you have all the extension (All the setup rules for it are really really silly)

I also really hate Tournament but the card is probably fine and should stay, I will just continue to hate it with a passion and lose every board it is on.
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