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KingZog3

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Wow. Buzzkill
« on: January 28, 2014, 10:58:38 pm »
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I don't remember if it's in that bad manners thread, but I think resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn is bad manners, no matter how bad you're losing. I already had pretty much the whole Platinum pile and a solid point lead, so she could have resigned at any point before. Instead she opted to gg me mid turn (That's not the bad manners part), covering my cards, and force end my final turn. Have the decency to wait 5 seconds. I'm not going to rub it in your face by Bishoping my Colony, because I'm not an ass (I thought of it, but I wouldn't do it. I save that for IRL against my brother.)

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140128/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1390967617948.txt
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2014, 12:02:00 pm »
0

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently. 
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dghunter79

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 06:33:26 pm »
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i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 06:45:35 pm »
0

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0
?

the "this" that annoys me is "resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn", "last turn" being the turn where they'd be ending the game on a win themselves.  If you resign on my turn, obviously that's my last turn; it's only annoying if i was going to end on a win anyway.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 06:57:38 pm »
0

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0
?

the "this" that annoys me is "resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn", "last turn" being the turn where they'd be ending the game on a win themselves.  If you resign on my turn, obviously that's my last turn; it's only annoying if i was going to end on a win anyway.

The polite time to resign is at the beginning of your own turn.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 07:10:08 pm »
+1

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0
?

the "this" that annoys me is "resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn", "last turn" being the turn where they'd be ending the game on a win themselves.  If you resign on my turn, obviously that's my last turn; it's only annoying if i was going to end on a win anyway.
Though, it's worth noting that there are some people on Goko who could be ending the game on a win, but instead play with themselves for 5 minutes before ending the game on a win. I usually wait until it's obvious that my opponent is doing this (if everything they need to end the game is visible from my side), but I also kind of understand the people who don't want to wait just to find out that their opponent is pulling a Still Had All Deez on them.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 08:30:02 pm »
+2

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0
?

the "this" that annoys me is "resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn", "last turn" being the turn where they'd be ending the game on a win themselves.  If you resign on my turn, obviously that's my last turn; it's only annoying if i was going to end on a win anyway.
Though, it's worth noting that there are some people on Goko who could be ending the game on a win, but instead play with themselves for 5 minutes before ending the game on a win. I usually wait until it's obvious that my opponent is doing this (if everything they need to end the game is visible from my side), but I also kind of understand the people who don't want to wait just to find out that their opponent is pulling a Still Had All Deez on them.

This.  Absolutely nothing worse in Dominion online than staring at 2 empty piles, one Estate left, and your opponent, who's already winning by 12, uses his 18 buys and 47 coin to buy 3 Provinces, 3 Gold, and a Laboratory.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 08:35:33 pm »
0

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0
?

the "this" that annoys me is "resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn", "last turn" being the turn where they'd be ending the game on a win themselves.  If you resign on my turn, obviously that's my last turn; it's only annoying if i was going to end on a win anyway.

The polite time to resign is at the beginning of your own turn.

I agree. I shouldn't have ended my turn in the crazy curse game and instead resigned before doing so, but I also didn't let him play out his turn, and just before he ends the game, resign.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2014, 09:19:51 pm »
+1

i know it can be irritating when you're losing badly, but this annoys me.  it's been happening more to me recently.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10312.0
?

the "this" that annoys me is "resigning in the middle of your opponents last turn", "last turn" being the turn where they'd be ending the game on a win themselves.  If you resign on my turn, obviously that's my last turn; it's only annoying if i was going to end on a win anyway.
Though, it's worth noting that there are some people on Goko who could be ending the game on a win, but instead play with themselves for 5 minutes before ending the game on a win. I usually wait until it's obvious that my opponent is doing this (if everything they need to end the game is visible from my side), but I also kind of understand the people who don't want to wait just to find out that their opponent is pulling a Still Had All Deez on them.

This.  Absolutely nothing worse in Dominion online than staring at 2 empty piles, one Estate left, and your opponent, who's already winning by 12, uses his 18 buys and 47 coin to buy 3 Provinces, 3 Gold, and a Laboratory.

If it bothers you so much, point it out to them. Sometimes they legitimately don't see it.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2014, 10:06:40 pm »
0

If it bothers you so much, point it out to them. Sometimes they legitimately don't see it.

I do.  I mean, if it's a super close game and you are unsure if buying the final curse wins or not, I get it, especially if you aren't using the counter.  But in the extreme cases, it's usually just spiteful.

I'm often asking "why didn't you just buy the last 4 Pawns to win?"  And sure, that might be something you missed with your 4 buys and 8 coin, since the Province just feels right, maybe.  And then they end it the next turn and we're all good.

You'd be amazed at all the folks who won't even respond, and then continue to just build and build their deck instead of ending the game with a win.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2014, 10:23:15 pm »
0

If it bothers you so much, point it out to them. Sometimes they legitimately don't see it.

I do.  I mean, if it's a super close game and you are unsure if buying the final curse wins or not, I get it, especially if you aren't using the counter.  But in the extreme cases, it's usually just spiteful.

I'm often asking "why didn't you just buy the last 4 Pawns to win?"  And sure, that might be something you missed with your 4 buys and 8 coin, since the Province just feels right, maybe.  And then they end it the next turn and we're all good.

You'd be amazed at all the folks who won't even respond, and then continue to just build and build their deck instead of ending the game with a win.

Maybe they're on an ipad so they can't respond.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2014, 10:34:54 pm »
+3

If it bothers you so much, point it out to them. Sometimes they legitimately don't see it.

I do.  I mean, if it's a super close game and you are unsure if buying the final curse wins or not, I get it, especially if you aren't using the counter.  But in the extreme cases, it's usually just spiteful.

I'm often asking "why didn't you just buy the last 4 Pawns to win?"  And sure, that might be something you missed with your 4 buys and 8 coin, since the Province just feels right, maybe.  And then they end it the next turn and we're all good.

You'd be amazed at all the folks who won't even respond, and then continue to just build and build their deck instead of ending the game with a win.

Maybe they're on an ipad so they can't respond.

They could still buy the last Estate on an iPad.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 06:42:56 am »
+6

I still maintain that the polite time to resign is whenever (insert personal pronoun/name here) feel(s) like it.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 07:26:12 am »
+1

I still maintain that the polite time to resign is whenever (insert personal pronoun/name here) feel(s) like it.
..and the best way of dealing with feelings of frustration for someone playing out their monster turn or dragging the game further when they have a forced win is to resign yourself.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 08:04:18 am »
+4

There's no minimum age limit on Goko right?
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 08:49:57 am »
0

There's no minimum age limit on Goko right?

relevant quote from the decline of civility thread:

This stuff perhaps seems less newsworthy when you realize you may be playing against kids.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 03:10:35 pm »
0

I still maintain that the polite time to resign is whenever (insert personal pronoun/name here) feel(s) like it.

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.

I think what you're really saying is "I don't worry all that much about being polite."  Which is fine.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 03:12:18 pm by dghunter79 »
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 04:50:06 pm »
+2

I still maintain that the polite time to resign is whenever (insert personal pronoun/name here) feel(s) like it.

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.

I think what you're really saying is "I don't worry all that much about being polite."  Which is fine.

1) I disagree with your second sentence (actually I disagree with the first, too, but that is more of a technicality).
2) I do worry about trying to be polite. "All that much" is incredibly subjective, so I can't really speak to that. Certainly it isn't my TOP priority...
3) I meant what I said.
4) I find it rather rude to imply that numbers 2 and 3 are untrue.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 05:20:49 pm »
0

I still maintain that the polite time to resign is whenever (insert personal pronoun/name here) feel(s) like it.

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.

I think what you're really saying is "I don't worry all that much about being polite."  Which is fine.

1) I disagree with your second sentence (actually I disagree with the first, too, but that is more of a technicality).
2) I do worry about trying to be polite. "All that much" is incredibly subjective, so I can't really speak to that. Certainly it isn't my TOP priority...
3) I meant what I said.
4) I find it rather rude to imply that numbers 2 and 3 are untrue.

I'm sure you meant what you said.  I just think the words I used are more apt in describing your thought processes.  Although an even better, even less objectionable way to put it would be, "I don't consider politeness, when it comes to the timing of when to resign in a game of online Dominion." 

If you or any hypothetical human being said something along the lines of "When it comes to the timing of when to resign in a game of online Dominion, I think everything is equally polite," I would assume what they actually felt was more like the first thing.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 05:33:21 pm »
0

I still maintain that the polite time to resign is whenever (insert personal pronoun/name here) feel(s) like it.

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.

I think what you're really saying is "I don't worry all that much about being polite."  Which is fine.

1) I disagree with your second sentence (actually I disagree with the first, too, but that is more of a technicality).
2) I do worry about trying to be polite. "All that much" is incredibly subjective, so I can't really speak to that. Certainly it isn't my TOP priority...
3) I meant what I said.
4) I find it rather rude to imply that numbers 2 and 3 are untrue.

I'm sure you meant what you said.  I just think the words I used are more apt in describing your thought processes.  Although an even better, even less objectionable way to put it would be, "I don't consider politeness, when it comes to the timing of when to resign in a game of online Dominion." 

If you or any hypothetical human being said something along the lines of "When it comes to the timing of when to resign in a game of online Dominion, I think everything is equally polite," I would assume what they actually felt was more like the first thing.


I find it very strange that you think you understand my thought process better than I do - especially that this is true to the extent that you feel the need to comment on it.

But I guess you either have to disbelieve me or be surprised at your incorrect assumption, because I really don't think it's less polite to resign at any point - and I find it strange that other people do.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 05:46:52 pm »
0

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.
No, it's not polite to make them play their cards when there's no point in doing so. If you think clicking on cards on Goko is fun, then you can play against the bots or whatever; I assume that most people would rather be doing something of significance, such as playing another game of Dominion against someone who hasn't decided to resign yet.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2014, 07:04:51 pm »
+1

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.
No, it's not polite to make them play their cards when there's no point in doing so. If you think clicking on cards on Goko is fun, then you can play against the bots or whatever; I assume that most people would rather be doing something of significance, such as playing another game of Dominion against someone who hasn't decided to resign yet.

Everyone prefers their own turn to the other guy's turn.  Almost all of the resignations I encounter come around the beginning of my turn, because the other guy played his own cards, because it was a little fun for him, and then resigned, because waiting through my turn was not at all fun for him.

If your opponent is playing a turn you think they would rather not play, if they knew you were just going to resign, you can tell them that, and ask if they mind if you resign.  "But wait!  That means going the extra mile just to avoid offending someone else!  I mean, there's a chance they might not have even minded if I just resigned!"

Well, that's what it means to be polite.  Going that extra mile.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 07:12:13 pm »
+1

I find it very strange that you think you understand my thought process better than I do - especially that this is true to the extent that you feel the need to comment on it.

But I guess you either have to disbelieve me or be surprised at your incorrect assumption, because I really don't think it's less polite to resign at any point - and I find it strange that other people do.

It's not really that strange! It's pretty common to feel, when someone else is talking, that they mean a different thing than what they're saying.  People don't express themselves perfectly.  Through a combination of awkwardness of language, and a desire, usually unconscious, to distort reality by misdescribing it, what people say is at best an approximation of what they think and feel.

It's not uncommon that one person can have a clearer idea of what another is thinking than that person is themselves expressing.  Especially in oppositional discourse like this.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2014, 07:18:19 pm »
0

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.
No, it's not polite to make them play their cards when there's no point in doing so. If you think clicking on cards on Goko is fun, then you can play against the bots or whatever; I assume that most people would rather be doing something of significance, such as playing another game of Dominion against someone who hasn't decided to resign yet.

Everyone prefers their own turn to the other guy's turn.  Almost all of the resignations I encounter come around the beginning of my turn, because the other guy played his own cards, because it was a little fun for him, and then resigned, because waiting through my turn was not at all fun for him.

If your opponent is playing a turn you think they would rather not play, if they knew you were just going to resign, you can tell them that, and ask if they mind if you resign.  "But wait!  That means going the extra mile just to avoid offending someone else!  I mean, there's a chance they might not have even minded if I just resigned!"

Well, that's what it means to be polite.  Going that extra mile.
Or maybe he played his own cards because he didn't know that he would be having an absolutely awful hand next turn until he drew it at the end of his turn. And if I ask if my opponent minds if I resign, then the only polite way for my opponent to respond is that they don't mind, so it's pointless.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2014, 07:21:28 pm »
0

The other person has to wait while you play your cards.  It is then polite to return the courtesy and let the other person play their cards.
No, it's not polite to make them play their cards when there's no point in doing so. If you think clicking on cards on Goko is fun, then you can play against the bots or whatever; I assume that most people would rather be doing something of significance, such as playing another game of Dominion against someone who hasn't decided to resign yet.

Everyone prefers their own turn to the other guy's turn.  Almost all of the resignations I encounter come around the beginning of my turn, because the other guy played his own cards, because it was a little fun for him, and then resigned, because waiting through my turn was not at all fun for him.

If your opponent is playing a turn you think they would rather not play, if they knew you were just going to resign, you can tell them that, and ask if they mind if you resign.  "But wait!  That means going the extra mile just to avoid offending someone else!  I mean, there's a chance they might not have even minded if I just resigned!"

Well, that's what it means to be polite.  Going that extra mile.

I think you're confusing polite with inconsiderate, not that this really matters?
Anyway, I am definitely very annoyed by people asking me they resign. Can I call that impolite? Sure. But there isn't much point - I think the larger point here is to not assume malicious intent, and realize that whatever the little things, it's doesn't really matter THAT much in the scheme of things.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2014, 04:00:49 pm »
0

Or maybe he played his own cards because he didn't know that he would be having an absolutely awful hand next turn until he drew it at the end of his turn. And if I ask if my opponent minds if I resign, then the only polite way for my opponent to respond is that they don't mind, so it's pointless.

Sure, sometimes.  But not usually.  Like, here's the example that I noted.  I don't think any new information was gained on the resigning player's last turn.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140128/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1390928469821.txt

And yeah, being polite is sometimes just adding another layer of time-consuming formal exchanges that accomplish nothing but demonstrating a perfunctory consideration of the other person's feelings.  That is what it means to be polite!  All I'm saying is, if you find politeness "pointless" and time-consuming, then the best way of describing your point of view is that politeness doesn't concern you that much.

I think you're confusing polite with inconsiderate, not that this really matters?
Anyway, I am definitely very annoyed by people asking me they resign. Can I call that impolite? Sure. But there isn't much point - I think the larger point here is to not assume malicious intent, and realize that whatever the little things, it's doesn't really matter THAT much in the scheme of things.

Actually, it's incorrect to label some behavior impolite just because it annoys you.  Impolite and annoying are different things.

Sure, this doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things.  I mean, what I've been arguing all along is that you are clearly not that worried about politeness in this instance, which is basically exactly what you're expressing right now. 

I would like to keep the meanings of words clear, when possible.  That's something I think does matters in the scheme of things.  So, instead of expanding the definition of "polite" to include mild indifference to politeness, I'd just prefer that the two things remain in separate categories.  You seem really resistant to being labeled as "mildly indifferent to politeness."  I don't really find it an offensive descriptor.

Awaclus

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2014, 04:29:34 pm »
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And yeah, being polite is sometimes just adding another layer of time-consuming formal exchanges that accomplish nothing but demonstrating a perfunctory consideration of the other person's feelings.  That is what it means to be polite!  All I'm saying is, if you find politeness "pointless" and time-consuming, then the best way of describing your point of view is that politeness doesn't concern you that much.
Oh. If that is what it means to be polite, then yeah, I'd rather live in a world where politeness didn't exist. The Finnish word which "polite" usually translates into, though, means actually considering the other person's feelings and treating him or her accordingly, so that's what confused me.
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KingZog3

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2014, 05:45:20 pm »
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If you resign mid game theres no problem as to when you do it. But in the end game I think it's more reasonable to just let it play out, especially if it's clearly the last turn. It's as simple as that. I wasn't super annoyed by any of this, it was just observation with a bit of frustration.
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Polk5440

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2014, 08:09:18 pm »
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And yeah, being polite is sometimes just adding another layer of time-consuming formal exchanges that accomplish nothing but demonstrating a perfunctory consideration of the other person's feelings.  That is what it means to be polite!  All I'm saying is, if you find politeness "pointless" and time-consuming, then the best way of describing your point of view is that politeness doesn't concern you that much.
Oh. If that is what it means to be polite, then yeah, I'd rather live in a world where politeness didn't exist. The Finnish word which "polite" usually translates into, though, means actually considering the other person's feelings and treating him or her accordingly, so that's what confused me.

Here's the catch: You have to know what the other person's feelings are to consider them. You don't.
The "formal exchanges" are often ways to get that information. Costly, yes. But even more costly when there aren't norm about them.

Anyway, I am definitely very annoyed by people asking me they resign. Can I call that impolite? Sure. But there isn't much point - I think the larger point here is to not assume malicious intent, and realize that whatever the little things, it's doesn't really matter THAT much in the scheme of things.

WW is bothered by people even asking to resign? That's fine. It's not impolite because I (and I have asked him before) don't know that even asking bothers him (well, now I do). I would hope that asking at least signals that I care about his feelings, making it a polite thing to do.

Why ask at all? I don't know whether he is bothered by me resigning or playing on. Most people I play with enjoy PLAYING Dominion (not just winning Dominion) and do not like people resigning, at all, or half way through their turn, etc. Playing on when you know that they would like you to play on (or wait 5 seconds) shows you care about their feelings.

And if I ask if my opponent minds if I resign, then the only polite way for my opponent to respond is that they don't mind, so it's pointless.

Not pointless -- it's information sharing. You let them know that you care about moving onto another game AND that you care about their opinion. They take that into account (if they care about you). So even if they say yes every time, it's not pointless.

Social players play pro games, too. And some highly ranked players are social players. Maybe that's what bothers some people. You would rather people be just like you. Then there is no information problem. You know exactly what their preferences are and how to interpret their behavior, how they'll feel. But everyone's not just like you; and worse, you don't know what they're like.
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Awaclus

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2014, 09:20:32 pm »
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Here's the catch: You have to know what the other person's feelings are to consider them. You don't.
And that's why I don't do stuff that might or might not bother them unless it's important.

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Most people I play with enjoy PLAYING Dominion (not just winning Dominion) and do not like people resigning, at all, or half way through their turn, etc. Playing on when you know that they would like you to play on (or wait 5 seconds) shows you care about their feelings.
If you like clicking on cards on Goko that much, maybe you should go to the Secret Chamber lobby and "play" a solitaire "game". I don't think that it's reasonable to require others to watch while you're moving cards from a zone to another zone - and I certainly don't think that it counts as "playing" if one of the players has no intention of winning the game.

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Not pointless -- it's information sharing. You let them know that you care about moving onto another game AND that you care about their opinion. They take that into account (if they care about you). So even if they say yes every time, it's not pointless.
I'm not sure why they would want to know that I care about moving onto another game. And the thing is, I would still totally resign even if my opponent said no - why should I be polite if my opponent is being a douchebag? So, basically the only reason why I would care about their opinion is that I want to know whether or not they're being polite, and well, it would be nice to know that they are, but it's not worth the time and the effort and the risk that they could be bothered by it. Besides, I think it would be rather weird to go around asking people "hey, do you happen to be polite?" anyway.
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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2014, 10:03:36 pm »
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I think you're confusing polite with inconsiderate, not that this really matters?
Anyway, I am definitely very annoyed by people asking me they resign. Can I call that impolite? Sure. But there isn't much point - I think the larger point here is to not assume malicious intent, and realize that whatever the little things, it's doesn't really matter THAT much in the scheme of things.

Actually, it's incorrect to label some behavior impolite just because it annoys you.  Impolite and annoying are different things.
I don't disagree - you are putting words in my mouth. It annoys me AND I can call it impolite, not SO I can. Mind you, I don't think that the nuance is a terribly important one.

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Sure, this doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things.  I mean, what I've been arguing all along is that you are clearly not that worried about politeness in this instance, which is basically exactly what you're expressing right now. 
Again, I keep saying this isn't true. I'm saying it's not impolite AND it doesn't matter, not that it IS impolite but that doesn't matter.

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I would like to keep the meanings of words clear, when possible.  That's something I think does matters in the scheme of things.  So, instead of expanding the definition of "polite" to include mild indifference to politeness, I'd just prefer that the two things remain in separate categories.  You seem really resistant to being labeled as "mildly indifferent to politeness."  I don't really find it an offensive descriptor.
I like to keep things clear too, which is why I keep saying that you are WRONG when you talk ab out how I feel. The stupid thing is NOT impolite.

Why is it impolite? The fun part of the game isn't clicking stupid buttons. I don't believe that, and while I guess it's maybe true for you, I can't imagine it is for almost anyone else. Clicking buttons is something you can do in lots of contexts, and it isn't fun. The fun part of the game is in playing the game - contesting your strategy, tactics, and luck against the other peoples', and seeing who wins. Thus, once the game is over, you don't want to keep bumbling around; you move on to the next game. You don't play the next few turns after provinces run out, or three piles are gone. You move on. The game is effectively over (only referring to 2-player here) once a player decides to resign, so the only polite thing to do is to not waste the other guy's time by stringing him on, but to resign IMMEDIATELY after the decision is made.

See, it's not that I don't think it's impotant that I'm advocating for impolite behaviour. It's that I don't think it's important that YOU are advocating for impolite behaviour.

See, and while you talk about terms being clearly defined, but you aren't doing it yourself. The closest I've found is politeness implies "demonstrating a perfunctory consideration of the other person's feelings", but apart from this not actually conforming the primary definitions of the word, AND from it actually equating polity with consideration, you aren't making a good case for it at all. I mean, you, the guy who is upset at the other guy resigning at the wrong time (not necessarily you personally), are clearly being entirely incosdiderate of the other guy. You're saying he's not considering you, but you aren't considering him. You're wanting to waste BOTH of your times.

Polk5440

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2014, 10:49:22 pm »
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Here's the catch: You have to know what the other person's feelings are to consider them. You don't.
And that's why I don't do stuff that might or might not bother them unless it's important.

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Most people I play with enjoy PLAYING Dominion (not just winning Dominion) and do not like people resigning, at all, or half way through their turn, etc. Playing on when you know that they would like you to play on (or wait 5 seconds) shows you care about their feelings.
If you like clicking on cards on Goko that much, maybe you should go to the Secret Chamber lobby and "play" a solitaire "game". I don't think that it's reasonable to require others to watch while you're moving cards from a zone to another zone - and I certainly don't think that it counts as "playing" if one of the players has no intention of winning the game.

That's not what I said. They care about winning and other things. And so do you, which is why you would like to resign. If you only cared about winning you would play every game to the end because there is always a chance you could win (through shuffle luck and/or opponents' bad play).

Why watch someone play? Well, for one, some people like a little audience in their moments of glory (youtubers...). And you can't honestly say you've never gotten different amounts of enjoyment out of HOW you win Dominion. You wouldn't have played the game for this long if you only got a 0 or 1 out of the result. Resigning changes how the player wins.

For most experienced players, it usually doesn't matter very much. I find it does matter a lot more with new players (esp. if they happen to be good), who don't like getting cut off when they are about to pull off their first ever piledrive of the Provinces, or tricky three pile, or something.


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Not pointless -- it's information sharing. You let them know that you care about moving onto another game AND that you care about their opinion. They take that into account (if they care about you). So even if they say yes every time, it's not pointless.
I'm not sure why they would want to know that I care about moving onto another game.

You missed what I was saying. They know you care about moving onto another game when you resign. By asking you ALSO send a signal that you care about whether they want to play out their turn or finish the game.

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And the thing is, I would still totally resign even if my opponent said no - why should I be polite if my opponent is being a douchebag?

They aren't a douchebag. They just care about different things than you. If you would still totally resign, then yes, it's pointless to ask -- unless you were trying to send a fake signal to make them think you care when, in fact, you don't.

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So, basically the only reason why I would care about their opinion is that I want to know whether or not they're being polite, and well, it would be nice to know that they are, but it's not worth the time and the effort and the risk that they could be bothered by it. Besides, I think it would be rather weird to go around asking people "hey, do you happen to be polite?" anyway.

And there you go. A separating equilibrium. Some send the costly signal and others don't. You get information and can use that going forward.

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Awaclus

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2014, 01:01:58 am »
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Here's the catch: You have to know what the other person's feelings are to consider them. You don't.
And that's why I don't do stuff that might or might not bother them unless it's important.

Quote
Most people I play with enjoy PLAYING Dominion (not just winning Dominion) and do not like people resigning, at all, or half way through their turn, etc. Playing on when you know that they would like you to play on (or wait 5 seconds) shows you care about their feelings.
If you like clicking on cards on Goko that much, maybe you should go to the Secret Chamber lobby and "play" a solitaire "game". I don't think that it's reasonable to require others to watch while you're moving cards from a zone to another zone - and I certainly don't think that it counts as "playing" if one of the players has no intention of winning the game.

That's not what I said. They care about winning and other things. And so do you, which is why you would like to resign. If you only cared about winning you would play every game to the end because there is always a chance you could win (through shuffle luck and/or opponents' bad play).
No, I no longer care about winning and that's why I would like to resign. And that's also why it's not really playing a game if I'm not participating in the activity with the intention of winning.

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Why watch someone play? Well, for one, some people like a little audience in their moments of glory (youtubers...). And you can't honestly say you've never gotten different amounts of enjoyment out of HOW you win Dominion. You wouldn't have played the game for this long if you only got a 0 or 1 out of the result. Resigning changes how the player wins.
I watch the YouTubers I watch because I genuinely like them, not out of politeness. And yeah, I get different amounts of enjoyment out of how I win Dominion, but I can only think of one instance of an opponent's resignation not improving my experience (usually, people resign when it would've been a boring game anyway; likely involving an engine that takes a lot of time to play or a curse split that was heavily in my favor). And that was because I happened to have a clear goal other than beating my opponent (3-piling on that turn) which was also very challenging because of the complexity of the interactions. And I still think that he definitely had the right to resign there; if I want to solve puzzles, I can do that on the forums.

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They aren't a douchebag. They just care about different things than you.
That can be said about pretty much every douchebag ever (except for possibly myself).
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dghunter79

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2014, 03:14:47 am »
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Why is it impolite? The fun part of the game isn't clicking stupid buttons. I don't believe that, and while I guess it's maybe true for you, I can't imagine it is for almost anyone else. Clicking buttons is something you can do in lots of contexts, and it isn't fun. The fun part of the game is in playing the game - contesting your strategy, tactics, and luck against the other peoples', and seeing who wins. Thus, once the game is over, you don't want to keep bumbling around; you move on to the next game. You don't play the next few turns after provinces run out, or three piles are gone. You move on. The game is effectively over (only referring to 2-player here) once a player decides to resign, so the only polite thing to do is to not waste the other guy's time by stringing him on, but to resign IMMEDIATELY after the decision is made.

Lots of players enjoy playing their cards and seeing their engines go off after building them up.  It's a distinct thing from pushing random buttons.  It's for this reason that, given the choice, players tend to resign at the end of their own turn.  They take the satisfaction of playing their own cards, because playing your own cards is fun, and then quit instead of waiting through the other player's turn, because waiting through the other player's turn is boring. 

Seriously, look at this game --

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140128/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1390928469821.txt

-- and tell me that the resigning player resigned immediately after he "decided" to resign.  He already had nine Curses.  He played a turn in which he played a Familiar and bought a Silver.  Then he quit.  There wasn't any new information at the end of the turn that wasn't there at the beginning.  I'm not assigning "malicious intent" here, just pointing out the obvious.  The resigning player took a superfluous last turn.  He was the one who wasted both players' time. 

Requiring players to resign at the beginning of their own turn isn't wasting anyone's time; it will prevent many players from taking an extra turn to hit buttons after they've "decided" to resign.

I mean, you, the guy who is upset at the other guy resigning at the wrong time (not necessarily you personally), are clearly being entirely incosdiderate of the other guy. You're saying he's not considering you, but you aren't considering him. You're wanting to waste BOTH of your times.

By this logic, any call for any kind of politeness is "inconsiderate" of someone else's desire to be rude.

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2014, 08:30:05 am »
+2

Why is it impolite? The fun part of the game isn't clicking stupid buttons. I don't believe that, and while I guess it's maybe true for you, I can't imagine it is for almost anyone else. Clicking buttons is something you can do in lots of contexts, and it isn't fun. The fun part of the game is in playing the game - contesting your strategy, tactics, and luck against the other peoples', and seeing who wins. Thus, once the game is over, you don't want to keep bumbling around; you move on to the next game. You don't play the next few turns after provinces run out, or three piles are gone. You move on. The game is effectively over (only referring to 2-player here) once a player decides to resign, so the only polite thing to do is to not waste the other guy's time by stringing him on, but to resign IMMEDIATELY after the decision is made.

Lots of players enjoy playing their cards and seeing their engines go off after building them up.  It's a distinct thing from pushing random buttons.  It's for this reason that, given the choice, players tend to resign at the end of their own turn.  They take the satisfaction of playing their own cards, because playing your own cards is fun, and then quit instead of waiting through the other player's turn, because waiting through the other player's turn is boring. 

Seriously, look at this game --

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140128/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1390928469821.txt

-- and tell me that the resigning player resigned immediately after he "decided" to resign.  He already had nine Curses.  He played a turn in which he played a Familiar and bought a Silver.  Then he quit.  There wasn't any new information at the end of the turn that wasn't there at the beginning.  I'm not assigning "malicious intent" here, just pointing out the obvious.  The resigning player took a superfluous last turn.  He was the one who wasted both players' time. 

Requiring players to resign at the beginning of their own turn isn't wasting anyone's time; it will prevent many players from taking an extra turn to hit buttons after they've "decided" to resign.
Quit assuming you know what is going through other people's heads! You obviously aren't very good at it - and this isn't meant to be an insult, because nobody is. I can't know when the dude decided to resign, but you know what, I bet it was incredibly soon before he actually did (I mean, it takes some time to hit the buttons, you have to give him that). Yeah, he played his turn. You know what? His turn gives him more information about the state of the game. So, I didn't have a huge big turn to get me back in the game, and now I feel it's unwinnable, unlike at the beginning of my turn. Okay, why didn't he resign at the end of his own turn? Probably he hadn't considered his winnability chances until this point. Honestly, I really don't think almost anyone enjoys seeing the cards in their deck spin around so as to do this and then resign. I honestly think you're waaaay off the point here. And it's pretty rude to whine about this kind of thing.

Even if there isn't new information (though there actually is here, as you draw a card off familiar), maybe it doesn't strike him to think about resigning until after this turn. This seems by far the most likely scenario to me. I don't think that he's doing it just to have the fun of his cards go around al little more, because that's really not fun, and I don't think it's to just stuick it to his opponent, because I don't assume people are generally mean.

So please quit assuming malicious intent without good reason.

Requiring people to resign at the beginning of their turn IS wasting time - you can consider whether or not to resign at any time, ergo you can decide to resign at any time, and you should be able to resign as soon as you decide to, ergo resign whenever you make that decision. If you're playing against me, I certainly prefer this.

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I mean, you, the guy who is upset at the other guy resigning at the wrong time (not necessarily you personally), are clearly being entirely incosdiderate of the other guy. You're saying he's not considering you, but you aren't considering him. You're wanting to waste BOTH of your times.

By this logic, any call for any kind of politeness is "inconsiderate" of someone else's desire to be rude.
Yeah, the point here is to show that your definition for what is polite was a lousy one. You haven't shown any particular reason why resigning whenever you want is rude at all.

What polity is is a social construct. It's something just generally agreed to by people. And you know what? It's pretty clear that there isn't a social agreement for "resign at no time other than the beginning of your turn", so in terms of being polite, you're flat wrong on this. Get your terms straight.

dghunter79

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2014, 12:50:51 pm »
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So please quit assuming malicious intent without good reason.

I wouldn't say resigning at the end of your turn is motivated by "malicious intent."  It's just maximizing your own enjoyment of the game, probably subconsciously; that it comes at the expense of your opponent's enjoyment is just byproduct.  I don't find it all that cynical to believe that people are maximizing their own fun. 

As for "good reason," it seems to me to be the simplest explanation by far for why people are more likely to quit around the end of their own turns, even though that's not the point of the game when you receive the most new information.  And certainly I still think it's the simplest explanation for why, in the above example, the resigning player took that meaningless extra turn before deciding to resign.  Or, to use your language, I think that's the simplest explanation for why it only "occurred to him to resign" once his turn was done.

You seem to begin with the assumption that people are more like rational machines, who are capable of making perfect calculations as to when the odds of their winning outweigh the cost in time of continuing to play.  I don't share that assumption.  I think people quit a game of Dominion by making a snap decision that "it's not fun anymore."  And that, with the absence of a custom of politeness, they are more likely to feel that "it's not fun anymore" at the end of their own turn, when they are about to be forced to wait.

If I thought that people were mechanical, and usually made perfect decisions on their own, I would agree with you about the rest.  Perhaps we just disagree about where people fall on the logical-emotional spectrum.  I can see it being tempting to believe that, in the middle of a game based on making logical decisions, people will be in a logical headspace and resign at the precise perfect time, but I don't believe that this is what occurs in practice.

And, because I think people make these decisions emotionally and imperfectly, I think that enforcing a "resign at the beginning of your turn" custom will not waste anyone's time on balance.  It will often prevent people from taking the extra "one-last-turn" they tend to take.  Sometimes they will take that turn anyway, and be forced to wait through one more of their opponent's turns.  But these instances will cancel each other out.

I mean, this was the system that was in place on Isotropic, and I don't remember anyone complaining about it.

Get your terms straight.

Don't worry, I have them straight.  I agree that politeness derives from consensus.  But I disagree that the consensus should form around the precise "when is it most polite to resign in Dominion?"  The consensus forms around basic principles of politeness, and then, situation by situation, polite behavior is derived from those principles.  Otherwise, you could always claim that consensus didn't exist by further specifying the situation: "There's no consensus about when to resign in a game of Dominion when the Kingdom includes Scout and Witch and there are three Duchies left..."

The principle here is that generosity is polite, selfishness is rude.  And that since your own turn is more fun than your opponent's turn, the generous time to resign is before, rather than after, your own turn.  But again, I agree with you that a mechanical person would never think that their own turn was more fun than their opponent's turn, and never be capable of generosity or selfishness, and have no need of politeness of any kind.  The matter of our disagreement, I think, is how mechanical people are.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 12:53:26 pm by dghunter79 »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2014, 01:18:04 pm »
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So please quit assuming malicious intent without good reason.

I wouldn't say resigning at the end of your turn is motivated by "malicious intent."  It's just maximizing your own enjoyment of the game, probably subconsciously; that it comes at the expense of your opponent's enjoyment is just byproduct.  I don't find it all that cynical to believe that people are maximizing their own fun. 

As for "good reason," it seems to me to be the simplest explanation by far for why people are more likely to quit around the end of their own turns, even though that's not the point of the game when you receive the most new information.
This is actually just wrong, if we think about it. We generally get the most new information when we draw our new hand, which is precisely at the end-of-my-turn/beginning-of-your-turn time period.
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And certainly I still think it's the simplest explanation for why, in the above example, the resigning player took that meaningless extra turn before deciding to resign.  Or, to use your language, I think that's the simplest explanation for why it only "occurred to him to resign" once his turn was done.

You seem to begin with the assumption that people are more like rational machines, who are capable of making perfect calculations as to when the odds of their winning outweigh the cost in time of continuing to play.  I don't share that assumption.  I think people quit a game of Dominion by making a snap decision that "it's not fun anymore."  And that, with the absence of a custom of politeness, they are more likely to feel that "it's not fun anymore" at the end of their own turn, when they are about to be forced to wait.
I certainly don't think people are rational machines or making calculations about this. It is far more emotional - people feel like it's pointless to play anymore, and a waste of time. It's a feel thing, a largely emotional thing. I don't think it has to do with "being forced to wait" as that relates to turn order so much as "for the rest of the game in general". From personal experience, I don't like waiting for my opponent to play out a long-dead game, but I don't like stringing through my own turns either. There isn't a noticeable difference.

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If I thought that people were mechanical, and usually made perfect decisions on their own, I would agree with you about the rest.  Perhaps we just disagree about where people fall on the logical-emotional spectrum.  I can see it being tempting to believe that, in the middle of a game based on making logical decisions, people will be in a logical headspace and resign at the precise perfect time, but I don't believe that this is what occurs in practice.

And, because I think people make these decisions emotionally and imperfectly, I think that enforcing a "resign at the beginning of your turn" custom will not waste anyone's time on balance.  It will often prevent people from taking the extra "one-last-turn" they tend to take.  Sometimes they will take that turn anyway, and be forced to wait through one more of their opponent's turns.  But these instances will cancel each other out.
1st paragraph here, I disagree with you about what I feel (SERIOUSLY you keep getting this wrong) - I again agree with you that people are largely emotional and not so much "logical" (though if being more philosophical, I would argue that there isn't so much difference really". 2nd-paragraph, of course it will waste people's time. People won't resign sooner, they'll always resign later. People are loathe to resign before they want to, and so they won't. I think you would find that you are plain wrong about this, and that the instances certainly WON'T cancel each other out.
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I mean, this was the system that was in place on Isotropic, and I don't remember anyone complaining about it.
Actually, people DID complain about not being able to resign at other times. And some people would just quite the game there anyway. Man, I could hear arguments for why that is rude. But people didn't complain so much, because that was a technical thing - it was that it wasn't possible to resign. Here, people aren't complaining except at the complaints. If you want to wait to resign until the beginning of your turn, well then fine, I don't have a problem with that really. If you are going to verbally attack me for resigning at the wrong time, well that ticks me off.

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Get your terms straight.

Don't worry, I have them straight.  I agree that politeness derives from consensus.  But I disagree that the consensus should form around the precise "when is it most polite to resign in Dominion?"  The consensus forms around basic principles of politeness, and then, situation by situation, polite behavior is derived from those principles.  Otherwise, you could always claim that consensus didn't exist by further specifying the situation: "There's no consensus about when to resign in a game of Dominion when the Kingdom includes Scout and Witch and there are three Duchies left..."

The principle here is that generosity is polite, selfishness is rude.  And that since your own turn is more fun than your opponent's turn, the generous time to resign is before, rather than after, your own turn.  But again, I agree with you that a mechanical person would never think that their own turn was more fun than their opponent's turn, and never be capable of generosity or selfishness, and have no need of politeness of any kind.  The matter of our disagreement, I think, is how mechanical people are.
But you're just wrong about this again. I mean, you are pivoting it back to generous vs selfish, and this goes back to the you're actually wasting more peoples' time, and being more selfish, by being upset about someone else resigning when you would rather not, than they are by resigning when they want to. The 'generous' thing to do is to not whine about it and move on. And again, I don't really think that people find their own turns substantially more fun than their opponents' turns, in general. Indeed, I would MUCH rather sit during your turn in a close, tense, undecided game, than play my turn in a lopsided one. And I think it's clear that there isn't consensus with you on this topic (if anything, there is more support here for my position, though if you want to call it unclear, I won't argue that), and thus that it can't be consensus that your way is more generous and less selfish, and so clearly it's not more polite.

dghunter79

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2014, 04:04:22 pm »
0

I don't think it has to do with "being forced to wait" as that relates to turn order so much as "for the rest of the game in general".

Sure, but people seem to realize that they don't want to play "the rest of the game in general" pretty consistently at the end of their own turn.  As the resigning player did in the game I keep referring to.  (I would guess, on average, you get the highest concentration of new information about win expectations when your opponent plays his treasures.  I could be wrong.  I don't see how it's obvious.)

I agree that people prefer the opponent's turn in a fun game to their own turn in a dead game.  But even in a dead game, people noticeably prefer playing their own turn, and this is why the end of their own turn becomes the more natural point for realizing that the game is no longer fun.  Again, in the example I referred to, something like this seems pretty clearly to be happening, and in my own experience, it happens pretty frequently this way.

You might be right that, even if players could resign at the beginning of their own turns, players like the one above would more often than not still take the superfluous final turn, thus forcing the opponent to play another dead turn.  I admit that I don't really know which would happen; I only suspect it would be closer to 50/50 than the pure time-suck you think it would be.  But probably Goko's permissiveness shortens the turn-length of games at least a little.  You could compare the results on Isotropic and Goko to find out.

I don't really get how it could be that "people aren't complaining except at the complaints."  I mean clearly people have to be first complaining about the timing of resignation for other people to push back.  Anyway, the original post was complaining about the timing of someone else's resignation, which is why I chimed in.  I do get the sense that people frequently feel put off by resignation timing, not just me.  And that the result of people feeling frequently feeling put off is a less congenial gaming atmosphere.  I don't think I get significantly more offended than other people.  Actually, speaking for myself, I enjoy playing against extremely rude players; it gets my blood going.  But, I do think that formalizing resignation timing, as Isotropic did, contributes to more respectful gameplay.

I also think that, though the waters have gotten muddy here, there is a pretty strong consensus that people enjoy playing their own cards more than they enjoy waiting for their opponent to play theirs, pretty much in all types of games, including in games where the decision is basically decided.  There is also pretty much a consensus that quitting a decided game favors the losing player more than the winning player, and that there is some fun to be had for the winner in playing out the victory to completion.  I think that yours and Awaclus' position that playing out a victory is indistinguishable from pushing random buttons on a keyboard is, while sensible, not the way most people feel, and that the existence of resigning as an option is more the result of everyone averaging their own expected outcomes, reasoning that they will both win and lose games, and that they will suffer more by playing out losses than they will recoup in enjoyment from playing out wins.  And I do think that, from this consensus, derives the result that allowing your opponent the final turn is both generous and polite.  That does, hypothetically, demand a certain accommodation from the WWs and Awacluses of the world, who don't derive any pleasure at all from playing out wins.

I'm certainly sorry you feel so verbally attacked by this discussion.  I do still feel that your position is best characterized as circumstantial mild indifference to politeness in favor of humans just obeying their own instincts; and that you think a system of politeness would be detrimental.  I feel the same way about people who insist that there's no reason to say "gg."  It's anti-politeness, rather than alt-politeness.  I don't really have a problem with anti-politeness.  I get that you would not use these words yourself to describe your own position.  I get why you think that what you're advocating is an alternate take on what's polite.  I just don't agree that that's actually the way to put it.  I don't really think the libertarian "everyone should do what they want" should be defined as a form of politeness, even allowing the possibility that it would make people happier while saving time.  (Which I don't think it would.)

I would say that, attacked as you might feel by my having an interpretation of your position that you don't agree with, it doesn't really excuse the increasingly aggressive tone of your posts.  You're certainly becoming very comfortable characterizing my arguing for my own interpretation of what's polite as "whining."  I'm not complaining about anything.  I don't even play online anymore; I just read these forums and watch your videos.  I do think that since KingZog was bothered by the timing of his opponent's resignation in this game, he should look at the timing of his own resignation in the other game he posted about on the same day.

And now, according to long-agreed upon notions of what is polite, I will allow you the last word.

KingZog3

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2014, 04:18:56 pm »
+1

I don't think it has to do with "being forced to wait" as that relates to turn order so much as "for the rest of the game in general".

Sure, but people seem to realize that they don't want to play "the rest of the game in general" pretty consistently at the end of their own turn.  As the resigning player did in the game I keep referring to.  (I would guess, on average, you get the highest concentration of new information about win expectations when your opponent plays his treasures.  I could be wrong.  I don't see how it's obvious.)

I agree that people prefer the opponent's turn in a fun game to their own turn in a dead game.  But even in a dead game, people noticeably prefer playing their own turn, and this is why the end of their own turn becomes the more natural point for realizing that the game is no longer fun.  Again, in the example I referred to, something like this seems pretty clearly to be happening, and in my own experience, it happens pretty frequently this way.

You might be right that, even if players could resign at the beginning of their own turns, players like the one above would more often than not still take the superfluous final turn, thus forcing the opponent to play another dead turn.  I admit that I don't really know which would happen; I only suspect it would be closer to 50/50 than the pure time-suck you think it would be.  But probably Goko's permissiveness shortens the turn-length of games at least a little.  You could compare the results on Isotropic and Goko to find out.

I don't really get how it could be that "people aren't complaining except at the complaints."  I mean clearly people have to be first complaining about the timing of resignation for other people to push back.  Anyway, the original post was complaining about the timing of someone else's resignation, which is why I chimed in.  I do get the sense that people frequently feel put off by resignation timing, not just me.  And that the result of people feeling frequently feeling put off is a less congenial gaming atmosphere.  I don't think I get significantly more offended than other people.  Actually, speaking for myself, I enjoy playing against extremely rude players; it gets my blood going.  But, I do think that formalizing resignation timing, as Isotropic did, contributes to more respectful gameplay.

I also think that, though the waters have gotten muddy here, there is a pretty strong consensus that people enjoy playing their own cards more than they enjoy waiting for their opponent to play theirs, pretty much in all types of games, including in games where the decision is basically decided.  There is also pretty much a consensus that quitting a decided game favors the losing player more than the winning player, and that there is some fun to be had for the winner in playing out the victory to completion.  I think that yours and Awaclus' position that playing out a victory is indistinguishable from pushing random buttons on a keyboard is, while sensible, not the way most people feel, and that the existence of resigning as an option is more the result of everyone averaging their own expected outcomes, reasoning that they will both win and lose games, and that they will suffer more by playing out losses than they will recoup in enjoyment from playing out wins.  And I do think that, from this consensus, derives the result that allowing your opponent the final turn is both generous and polite.  That does, hypothetically, demand a certain accommodation from the WWs and Awacluses of the world, who don't derive any pleasure at all from playing out wins.

I'm certainly sorry you feel so verbally attacked by this discussion.  I do still feel that your position is best characterized as circumstantial mild indifference to politeness in favor of humans just obeying their own instincts; and that you think a system of politeness would be detrimental.  I feel the same way about people who insist that there's no reason to say "gg."  It's anti-politeness, rather than alt-politeness.  I don't really have a problem with anti-politeness.  I get that you would not use these words yourself to describe your own position.  I get why you think that what you're advocating is an alternate take on what's polite.  I just don't agree that that's actually the way to put it.  I don't really think the libertarian "everyone should do what they want" should be defined as a form of politeness, even allowing the possibility that it would make people happier while saving time.  (Which I don't think it would.)

I would say that, attacked as you might feel by my having an interpretation of your position that you don't agree with, it doesn't really excuse the increasingly aggressive tone of your posts.  You're certainly becoming very comfortable characterizing my arguing for my own interpretation of what's polite as "whining."  I'm not complaining about anything.  I don't even play online anymore; I just read these forums and watch your videos.  I do think that since KingZog was bothered by the timing of his opponent's resignation in this game, he should look at the timing of his own resignation in the other game he posted about on the same day.

And now, according to long-agreed upon notions of what is polite, I will allow you the last word.

Thanks for finally accusing me as opposed to dancing around it without saying my name.

Now, I'd just like to say that you seem assume that I am angry at the resignation of this person. It's fine they resigned, maybe impolite (I doesn't matter), but at the time it was annoying that they couldn't be bothered to wait 15 seconds till I was done THE GAME. Not the turn, the entire game. It was more that this was clearly the end of the game. I was clearly going to finish with a win. In the other game it was turn 9, and I already had 9 curses. The other option is to sit the game out till the end. This isn't about whether I resigned at the end of my turn or not. It's about when I resigned during the course of the game.

Turn 9 means we played for around what, 5minutes? The other game already lasted probably around 10-15 minutes, and 15 seconds at that point is not much. I would never resign on the last turn of an opponent. And before you say "How can you tell?", if I've played my actions ad have enough $$ to win, just let me end the game naturally.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2014, 05:03:00 pm »
+1

I don't think it has to do with "being forced to wait" as that relates to turn order so much as "for the rest of the game in general".

Sure, but people seem to realize that they don't want to play "the rest of the game in general" pretty consistently at the end of their own turn.  As the resigning player did in the game I keep referring to.  (I would guess, on average, you get the highest concentration of new information about win expectations when your opponent plays his treasures.  I could be wrong.  I don't see how it's obvious.)

I agree that people prefer the opponent's turn in a fun game to their own turn in a dead game.  But even in a dead game, people noticeably prefer playing their own turn,
I'm betting you have no evidence for this other than your own feelings. I'd be incredibly shocked if any significant number of people had actually said this to you - certainly it isn't getting widely expressed here.

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and this is why the end of their own turn becomes the more natural point for realizing that the game is no longer fun.  Again, in the example I referred to, something like this seems pretty clearly to be happening, and in my own experience, it happens pretty frequently this way.

You might be right that, even if players could resign at the beginning of their own turns,
They CAN resign at the beginning of their own turns. That's what doesn't make any sense about your argument. They can do that already. Naturally limiting the time of when you can resign to a subset of the current times just makes things worse, makes things take longer almost necessarily.
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players like the one above would more often than not still take the superfluous final turn, thus forcing the opponent to play another dead turn.  I admit that I don't really know which would happen; I only suspect it would be closer to 50/50 than the pure time-suck you think it would be.  But probably Goko's permissiveness shortens the turn-length of games at least a little.  You could compare the results on Isotropic and Goko to find out.
Such a comparison would show essentially nothing due to severely different playerbases playing with (more importantly) different cardsets.
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I don't really get how it could be that "people aren't complaining except at the complaints."  I mean clearly people have to be first complaining about the timing of resignation for other people to push back.  Anyway, the original post was complaining about the timing of someone else's resignation, which is why I chimed in.  I do get the sense that people frequently feel put off by resignation timing, not just me.
From what? What gives you that sense?
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And that the result of people feeling frequently feeling put off is a less congenial gaming atmosphere.  I don't think I get significantly more offended than other people.  Actually, speaking for myself, I enjoy playing against extremely rude players; it gets my blood going.  But, I do think that formalizing resignation timing, as Isotropic did, contributes to more respectful gameplay.

I also think that, though the waters have gotten muddy here, there is a pretty strong consensus that people enjoy playing their own cards more than they enjoy waiting for their opponent to play theirs,
Based on what? Again, you give no evidence to support this, only your own feeling, which I do not believe to be commonly held
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pretty much in all types of games, including in games where the decision is basically decided.
This is incorrect. I don't know what games you're talking about actually. I can't think of any. I wouldn't be surprised to learn there are some, but it's certainly not universal - in chess, people resign, they resign on their opponent's move ALL THE TIME, they resign whenever. It's considered the courteous thing to do once the game is hopeless. Games are almost NEVER played to checkmate, except in ultra-fast blitz where you're trying to flag a guy, or at the extreme low levels where people can reasonably be thought to not actually be able to convert their winning advantage even when it's incredibly easy to do. Indeed, playing on in chess is essentially saying to your opponent that you don't believe them to be capable of converting their position to a win with certainty, which depending on the situation is actually incredibly insulting. People get upset over this. So this is a game where earlier resigning is the norm. Another such game is Magic, where you typically concede as soon as you know you can't win. Most often, this is at the beginning of your own turn, as you're looking to top-deck a particular subset of cards to stay alive, you don't, and that's it. But it's also VERY often during your opponent's turn, they play a card, you have no way to beat it at this point, you immediately concede. It's considered (very mildly) impolite to make them actually go through the motions of a forced kill on board, particularly in situations where you couldn't be bluffing a way to survive (in which case, of course, it's not considered impolite at all, though people still often resign).
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There is also pretty much a consensus that quitting a decided game favors the losing player more than the winning player, and that there is some fun to be had for the winner in playing out the victory to completion.
Again, you have given no evidence for this. But the bigger point is that the surrender of your opponent IS a completed victory... Seriously, you would like to play out another turn after the game has ended, if you win? Is it impolite to three-pile yourself to a loss?
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I think that yours and Awaclus' position that playing out a victory is indistinguishable from pushing random buttons on a keyboard is, while sensible, not the way most people feel, and that the existence of resigning as an option is more the result of everyone averaging their own expected outcomes, reasoning that they will both win and lose games, and that they will suffer more by playing out losses than they will recoup in enjoyment from playing out wins.  And I do think that, from this consensus,
There is no consensus. Even if you're right, and there are lots of people who feel the way you think they do, there are definitely people who feel the other way - that's not a consensus then.
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derives the result that allowing your opponent the final turn is both generous and polite.  That does, hypothetically, demand a certain accommodation from the WWs and Awacluses of the world, who don't derive any pleasure at all from playing out wins.

I'm certainly sorry you feel so verbally attacked by this discussion.
The "I think people should resign at a certain point rather than another" doesn't really make me feel verbally attacked. I disagree with it, but that's ok.
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I do still feel that your position is best characterized as circumstantial mild indifference to politeness in favor of humans just obeying their own instincts; and that you think a system of politeness would be detrimental.
THIS makes me feel very attacked. You're being incredibly rude in continuing to say this over my repeated and express objections. It's wrong, and by continuing to repeat it, not only are you impugning my reputation as someone who does care about such things, you're also essentially accusing me of either lying or being too stupid to know what I actually feel as well as some random guy on the internet who I've never met. I've continually asked you to stop saying this, and you continue to say it. It seems to me to be by far the least polite thing in the entire discussion.
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I feel the same way about people who insist that there's no reason to say "gg."  It's anti-politeness, rather than alt-politeness.  I don't really have a problem with anti-politeness.  I get that you would not use these words yourself to describe your own position.  I get why you think that what you're advocating is an alternate take on what's polite.  I just don't agree that that's actually the way to put it.
Even if this were correct, my continual asking you not to ought to be sufficient reason for you to not keep accusing me of this. You can argue for your position without claiming that I don't understand or am misrepresenting mine.
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I don't really think the libertarian "everyone should do what they want"
This is both irrelevant, as no one here is advocating it, and quite impolite to libertarians, who generally don't believe this position which you have just attributed to them.
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should be defined as a form of politeness, even allowing the possibility that it would make people happier while saving time.  (Which I don't think it would.)

I would say that, attacked as you might feel by my having an interpretation of your position that you don't agree with, it doesn't really excuse the increasingly aggressive tone of your posts.
I'm becoming increasingly aggressive? I'm becoming increasingly blunt. I started with a very clean, simple statement of my position. You mischaracterized my reasoning, so I corrected that, but said I didn't think it was very important - I don't, and I was trying to get it to just drop. You repeated your mischaracterization, so I again rebutted, and became more blunt in explaining that I actually think you have it flipped around. In order to get my point across, as you continue to show that you are either unable or unwilling to accept my argument for what it is (which you can do without agreeing with it), I have had to tip-toe less and less around feelings, so that I can be plainer and plainer about what I mean. So, yeah, I'm being less cordial now than at the beginning - I have been forced to either do this or abandon the argument altogether. I haven't become aggressive - I'm certainly not making any threats or anything - though I certainly have become more exasperated, and I try to take great care to argue (perhaps fiercely) against the position rather than any person.
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You're certainly becoming very comfortable characterizing my arguing for my own interpretation of what's polite as "whining."
I actually haven't done this at all. What I have claimed as whining is voicing a complaint about someone else resigning at the wrong time - to be particular, in the context of a specific instance, a certain game or person. This is whining. If you haven't done that, then I haven't said that you've whined. I certainly haven't claimed that your argument for your own position is "whining" - it's not whining, it's just wrong.

markusin

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2014, 09:44:22 am »
+1

Well, this thread kinda turned into a battle of the walls of text.

For the record, I couldn't care less when my opponents resign. If my opponent feels like the game has already been decided or is not fun, chances are I wouldn't have enjoyed playing on either. And sometimes, there's a emergency they have to attend to, in which case they should be allowed to resign immediately. I also don't always play out my final turn to the fullest, but instead cut my turn short to end it on a win.

If anything, I feel that I don't resign often enough. I almost never resign unless my opponent has more than half the VP available on the board. I guess I'm a bit masochistic to play on while on the receiving end of a Torturer chain.

It's tricky because it would be considered rude if your opponent suggested you resign, but it's also annoying to have the losing player ask to resign. So why can't the convention be "resign whenever you want'?

If you want to play out your big mega-turn or something, you can always play against bots (or solitaire in the Secret Chamber lobby, apparently).
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KingZog3

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Re: Wow. Buzzkill
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2014, 11:39:20 am »
0

Well, this thread kinda turned into a battle of the walls of text.

For the record, I couldn't care less when my opponents resign. If my opponent feels like the game has already been decided or is not fun, chances are I wouldn't have enjoyed playing on either. And sometimes, there's a emergency they have to attend to, in which case they should be allowed to resign immediately. I also don't always play out my final turn to the fullest, but instead cut my turn short to end it on a win.

If anything, I feel that I don't resign often enough. I almost never resign unless my opponent has more than half the VP available on the board. I guess I'm a bit masochistic to play on while on the receiving end of a Torturer chain.

It's tricky because it would be considered rude if your opponent suggested you resign, but it's also annoying to have the losing player ask to resign. So why can't the convention be "resign whenever you want'?

If you want to play out your big mega-turn or something, you can always play against bots (or solitaire in the Secret Chamber lobby, apparently).

Of course people can resign at any point. There shouldn't be a rule about it. But if they played the entire game, it seems to me they should be considerate and just let their opponent end the game naturally. Maybe the had an emergency, which can happen so I can't be to angry with them.
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