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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards  (Read 31292 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2014, 04:57:59 pm »
+4

Lookout is great.  I have even opened lookout/lookout before.  A couple times in fact. 

(you know those rare situations when it is the only trasher AND tunnel is on the board AND it is a pretty weak board.  I have found that lookout/lookout is better than lookout/tunnel.  You can always buy tunnel t3 or t4 at the latest)

It also Combos with Scout.  When you reveal Copper, Copper, Estate, you can trash a Copper, discard a Copper, topdeck the Estate, and then draw it with Scout.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2014, 10:16:11 pm »
+1

[...]You've already mentioned the former happened to you with Lookout
I did what?

Quote
i've written a program which compares look/look, look/amb and amb/amb by playing the scenario with reasonable choices, simply boards and random shuffle luck, simulating all three 1000 000 times to see which is better, so it's probably a good idea not to argue about that anymore.
Is that admitting that I'm wrong? No... I don't think so. No, actually not at all. Really, it isn't. It isn't.

Quote
If I'm playing a cantrip card that gives you curses, and you're playing a terminal to get rid of it
what trasher are you talking about - Silk Road? Forager is not a terminal, Lookout is not terminal, Ambassador doesn't just repair but gives you the curse, Altar gets a card costing up to 5$ as a reward for trashing, and chapel trashes so fast that your curses will probably be removed in the turn that they're gained.

But yes, Familiar is a stronger card than, let's say, Lookout. And yes, if you play your cantrip Familiar and then I trash with  Lookout with 1 card disadvantage, I lose in this equation. There is nothing to be argued here, it's simple maths. However, Lookout can be bought in turn 1 and while you tech for familiars, I can get other stuff. And here maths stops, because things become too complex to make simple comparisons. That's also why I didn't try (and usually don't when it's about Dominion) to make lots of arguments: unless someone claims, let's say, Market is better in a strong deck than Laboratory, which I could disprove by explaining him something about average card value n stuff, what you believe to know about the game is a result of experience from playing the game.

Quote
. I would still play Familiar on many boards with Lookout, Forager, Hermit etc..
...uh, yea. Duh. Obvoiusly. That's why familiar is #1, because people play him way too often. Familiar is overrated, that is my whole point, if it weren't, I wouldn't claim that he's too high. Junking in general is overrated, in my opinion, not even primarily Faimilar which even I find to be really strong, but Sea Hag f.i. was rated #1 on the $4 Card List, which is just ridiculous.

Off topic, you guys haven't even defined what exact criterium we're supposed to follow when ranking the cards. It's about how strong they are--- but what does that mean? Is it about how often it would be skipped in a 1n1 matchup, with random boards random shuffle luck and perfect players on both sides? Or is it how often the card would be bought total, in a number of games with random boards, 1n1 and once again perfectly played from both sides? Or is it the card that can create the strongest turns? Or is it the card that is most likely to dominate its board? Following the first definition, Wharf might be the strongest card in the game, because you buy at least one in basically every big money game and in every engine. With the second definition, it'll be... Fishing village, maybe? Something you buy lots of copies of. Or Cultists? Minions? Mabye basic villages? With the third definition, it's definitely Procession, because that card can be stronger than KC, Mountebank, Chapel and Goons combined. And with the fourth definition, it's probably KC.

So, there really is no point trying to kill an opinion. If it were another topic, I would totally agree with you, because "it's just an opinion" is generally used way too often to justify things that are just nonsense, and it's annoying every time. I've been known to rip opinions that aren't actually opinions to shreds in other forums. Just not in this case. Even if someone claimed Bag of Gold is the strongest price, you could never disprove him. So don't waste energy trying. And please don't try to show off with any sort of stats next.

And the fact that there can't be objective truths here is an objective truth. Funny, isn't it?

I think this quote is fitting:

Quote from: Qvist
This isn't a scientific list, just a compiled list of the community's opinion of the best cards.


Yea. And my post about opinion...stuff wasn't directed to you anyway, I was mostly motivated by this:

Quote
He also thinks Lookout is the best $3 trasher.  So, you know, grain of salt.

Cus that isn't... how'd you call it? Overwhelming opposition? No, not in the slightest.

I'm sort of baffled that your posts got so many upvotes...
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 10:49:21 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2014, 10:51:58 pm »
+4

[...]You've already mentioned the former happened to you with Lookout
I did what?

Quote
i've written a program which compares look/look, look/amb and amb/amb by playing the scenario with reasonable choices, simply boards and random shuffle luck, simulating all three 1000 000 times to see which is better, so it's probably a good idea not to argue about that anymore.
Is that admitting that I'm wrong? No... I don't think so. No, actually not at all. Really, it isn't. It isn't.

Oh, my bad. I assume your program did demonstrate how good Lookout isn't to you, though? The 'probably not a good idea to argue that stuff anymore' bit kind of suggested that you were conceding the point. Because, well, if Lookout really were anywhere near as good as Ambassador - at least without some kind of shocking breakthrough on ways to use it (which I doubt will happen) - I think F.DS would collectively eat all it's hats if it did turn out to be better than Ambassador.

Quote
Quote
If I'm playing a cantrip card that gives you curses, and you're playing a terminal to get rid of it
what trasher are you talking about. Silk Road? Forager is not a terminal, Lookout is not terminal, Ambassador doesn't just repair but gives you the curse, Altar gets a card costing up to 5$ as a reward for trashing, and chapel trashes so fast that your curses will probably be removed in the turn that they're gained.

But yes, Familiar is a better card than, let's say, Lookout. And yes, if you play your cantrip Familiar and then I trash with  Lookout with 1 card disadvantage, I lose in this equation. There is nothing to be argued here, it's simple maths. However, Lookout can be bought in turn 1 and while you tech for familiars, I can get other stuff. And here maths stops, because things become too complex to make simple comparisons. That's also why I usually don't try to make lots of arguments: unless someone claims, let's say, Market is better in a strong deck than Laboratory, which I could disprove by explaining him something about average card value n stuff, what you believe to know about the game is a result of experience from playing the game.

Okay, my mistake, terminal was the wrong word. I was talking about all the cards you listed. You stated they, and I quote, are cards which 'beat Familiar'. The issue here is they don't. You're right that many of the cards you stated are cheaper than it, but some are pretty comparable - such as Trading Post and Altar (heck Altar is more expensive even, arguably). I certainly agree on one thing: (Most of) those cards weaken Familiar, because you can trash the Curses you get. But trashing curses after you get them still slows you down, prevents you trashing other cards, etc.. And there's no guarantee you draw the curse and trasher together (or that the curse is on your deck for Lookout, etc.). You repair some of the damage, but the curses will still hurt you, a lot. You also say e.g. Chapel trashes so fast etc.. But I say, eh. Your chapel deck might be so thin you're guaranteed to draw the curse and chapel together - and chances are you will fairly quickly. But if you only have, say, an 8 card deck and I throw an extra curse in, that's suddenly a big percentage of your deck which is now junk until you get rid of it. And don't forget, if Chapel is on the board, I probably got one too, and am maybe throwing a curse at you every turn thanks to thinning, perhaps even more. You might be able to keep up with trashing, but you're certainly getting slowed down a lot on the way. Junking is just REALLY strong.

Quote
Quote
. I would still play Familiar on many boards with Lookout, Forager, Hermit etc..
...uh, yea. Duh. Obvoiusly. That's why familiar is #1, because people play him way too often. Familiar is overrated, that is my whole point, if it weren't, I wouldn't claim that he's too high. Junking in general is overrated, in my opinion, not even primarily Faimilar who even I find to be really strong, but Sea Hag f.i. was rated #1 on the $4 Card List, which is just ridiculous.

You're massively underrating the damage junk can do to your deck. It slows players down a LOT. Even if you can trash it, you need that card in hand, and the curse in the right place, and it's foregoing any other repairing you could do. If you buy a second card to start dealing with the incoming curses, you're foregoing tempo. If you don't, you're taking in curses, slowing you down - and you lose tempo. Either way, you lose time. I obviously lose some as well, playing an action (usually a terminal), but compared to the damage of curses in your deck, it's not such a big deal. And if you can't trash the curses at all - which isn't that unusual, there are a decent number of trashers (that are at least decent for trashing curses, that is) but there's a good chance of getting a kingdom with none - then curses become even more nasty.

Asides from that, you're turning my point into a semantic one, I'm trying to say, those cards alone wouldn't be sufficient to weaken Familiar from the point where most dominant strategies wouldn't want to buy it. Now that's quite a claim, and obviously I can't back this up with empirical evidence, but I can say it's what I believe and I think it's how at the very least most top players would play those boards. Sea Hag being #1 on the $4's... I think that's reasonable. There's a clear top 5 $4 cards - Sea Hag, JoaT, Remake, Young Witch and Tournament. The order on those could probably be debated, but I think those 5 will - and should - sit in the top 5 for next ratings. Well, there's probably one or two cards I'm overlooking in my head that could squeeze into the top 5 but, I don't think Sea Hag would drop down outside the top 5 at least.

Quote
And my post about opinion...stuff wasn't directed to you anyway, I was mostly motivated by this:

Quote
He also thinks Lookout is the best $3 trasher.  So, you know, grain of salt.

Cus that isn't... how'd you call it? Overwhelming opposition? No, not in the slightest.

That comment was funny though :(. Although I do think Kirian's later comment was unnecessary.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2014, 11:08:12 pm »
0

Quote
Oh, my bad. I assume your program did demonstrate how good Lookout isn't to you, though? The 'probably not a good idea to argue that stuff anymore' bit kind of suggested that you were conceding the point. Because, well, if Lookout really were anywhere near as good as Ambassador - at least without some kind of shocking breakthrough on ways to use it (which I doubt will happen) - I think F.DS would collectively eat all it's hats if it did turn out to be better than Ambassador.

Well, maybe it did show that, maybe it didn't. I've done a lot of these programs for all kinds of stuff, if I wanted to share them I'd make a thread and be all like "hey, look at all the cool stuff I found out, silver/silver is actually better than silver/storeroom, who would've thought?" and then everyone would start playing silver/silver and it would be as though I hadn't made it, because the community is so small. In the rare cases where I do find something that's commonly done wrong I'll keep it private.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2014, 11:27:02 pm »
0

I... don't think I understand the point you're making. You're aware we have some pretty good simulators already to test these things, right?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2014, 11:33:08 pm »
0

I... don't think I understand the point you're making. You're aware we have some pretty good simulators already to test these things, right?

heard of them, but I don't have any interest im them, these things always frustrate me because sooner or later I want to change something and than I can't because I didn't write it myself. If they prove that amb/amb beats l/l than there's no reason to talk any further. go play double amb. I wasn't trying to make any sort of point, I was just explaining why I didn't post the results of my little simulation
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 11:34:54 pm by silverspawn »
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serakfalcon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2014, 11:51:15 pm »
+5

I... don't think I understand the point you're making. You're aware we have some pretty good simulators already to test these things, right?

heard of them, but I don't have any interest im them, these things always frustrate me because sooner or later I want to change something and than I can't because I didn't write it myself. If they prove that amb/amb beats l/l than there's no reason to talk any further. go play double amb. I wasn't trying to make any sort of point, I was just explaining why I didn't post the results of my little simulation

I also distrust simulations written by people with more skill then me. It makes me feel like they know something I don't. It's a very uncomfortable feeling and I try to avoid it as much as possible.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2014, 12:38:09 am »
0

I... don't think I understand the point you're making. You're aware we have some pretty good simulators already to test these things, right?

heard of them, but I don't have any interest im them, these things always frustrate me because sooner or later I want to change something and than I can't because I didn't write it myself. If they prove that amb/amb beats l/l than there's no reason to talk any further. go play double amb. I wasn't trying to make any sort of point, I was just explaining why I didn't post the results of my little simulation

So you don't want to play a formula because it's proven to be good. Look, if you find something that actually prove others wrong, why not post it? Thing is you didn't. I've said things that were wrong. Look at my Pillage article, it's kind of bad. But whatever, people told me why I was wrong and I'm ok with it. I just sounds like you want Lookout/Lookout to be better, but it's not.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2014, 03:42:51 am »
+2

In the rare cases where I do find something that's commonly done wrong I'll keep it private.

Get your ass off this forum then.
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DStu

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2014, 04:55:00 am »
+1

I... don't think I understand the point you're making. You're aware we have some pretty good simulators already to test these things, right?
If they prove that amb/amb beats l/l than there's no reason to talk any further. go play double amb.
Both Amb/Amb and Lookout/Lookout into BigMoney are certainly not a good idea, probably both lose against BigMoney. Trashing is for engines, it doesn't make sense to compare the strength of trasher openings for BigMoney.
And for the engine, it depends on the board, though usually Ambassador will be stronger, as it also hinders your opponent and 'trashes' two cards, but there certainly are exceptions due to synergies, or the fact that Lookout is non-terminal and the terminal slot is better suited for some other card (maybe because Villages are expensive on this board, and thus actions are rare in the early deck)
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2014, 07:38:48 am »
+22

In the rare cases where I do find something that's commonly done wrong I'll keep it private.

Get your ass off this forum then.

Don't say things like this.

I mean, the thing is, silverspawn is wrong. Lookout is not nearly as good as ambassador. Yeah, I know. That's ok, though, people can be wrong. And yeah, he is going on too much about it, and he was claiming that we were being intolerant of him in the previous thread, which is a bit wrong (if I remember), because it wasn't intolerance so much as telling him he was wrong. But seriously, this has turned a bit witch-hunt-ish against him since then, so you (and this isn't directed at any particular person, because I don't remember exactly who have made all the posts, and it seems that it was more than one person) have actually worked out a way to vindicate him on that.

And yeah, his arguments are really bad. Apart-from the in-game issues, his meta-arguments are bad: he claims a simulator as evidence for his position while at the same time not accepting the results from other simulators around here - which kinda makes you wonder, why should he expect us to accept his, if he doesn't accept ours? So ok, fine, his arguments are really bad, too. (Incidentally, simulators are very much NOT the way to make the point on lookout and/or ambassador).

And this comment is about him not wanting to share developments he might find. Now, this seems a fairly wrong thing to say to someone who has just had a lot of time and energy spent just tearing into this position that he posted where he was pointing out something he thought was wrong, even if he was quite wrong about it. I mean, can you really blame someone from being turned off about posting places where he disagrees with the community after that?




BUT none of that is what REALLY gets my goat about this post - if you say something like "I don't know why you're on this forum then", well, I see some sense in that at least. But that's not what you said. What you said is just rude, offensive, insulting, to one specific person, not an idea or a position but a person. It's entirely unwarranted, and don't do it.
Especially because you're asking him to do something which it's simply not possible for him to do.



Now, if you want to ask me to do that, that's a request which is make-able (well, really I would expect that to be theory or rrenaud's place, and this thing isn't technically *mine*, but at least it's a reasonable assumption to make, or a reasonable implication).




If a mod wants to move, edit, whatever these posts, of course I'm cool with that.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 07:40:37 am by WanderingWinder »
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theory

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2014, 09:13:06 am »
+5

Remember xkcd 386!



I agree that there seems to be little point in participating in a forum if you are unwilling to share your "groundbreaking" discoveries and/or change your views in the face of overwhelming evidence.  At the same time, grudge matches are so much more effective at getting your point across...
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2014, 09:18:27 am »
+4

@WW

My problem is not with him being wrong or having a terrible learning attitude, my problem is with him being a leech. A lot of people here spend a lot of time discussing strategy, sharing insights and helping others improve their game. Then this guy comes and he's basically saying "I'm here to benefit from all your insight, but if I ever discover something on my own, I'll keep it to myself!"

It's like when you're out with a group where over the course of the night each person buys a round of drinks, except for one guy, and he doesn't just meekly try to avoid it, he's actively boasting that he isn't going to buy any. That sort of behavior is just completely unacceptable to me, so I'm going to lash out against it in a strong way that clearly gets the message across. It's not personal, just Tit-for-Tat without any grudges--if he changes then all is forgotten.
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florrat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2014, 12:52:56 pm »
+3

@SCSN

I really disagree with you here. He is not a leech. He spend 9 posts (which were on average long to really long) to discuss his insight how Lookout is better than Ambassador. We all disagreed with this insight (in the beginning politely, but later less politely), and now he's saying he's not sharing any new insights with us. Surprise!

On the "buying drinks"-analogue, I'd make the analogue in this way. We are a group hanging out buying drinks for each other, but when one guy buys the drinks we all say we don't want the drinks he bought for us. Then he states he won't buy any drinks for us anymore. That behavior is completely acceptable to me, and I can hardly imagine someone being against this behavior.


PS: @serakfalcon,KingZog3: That's totally not what he said (or at least not what I read in what he said). I think he was just afraid some functionality was missing, and he would rather write his own program with every functionality he needed.
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2014, 01:00:39 pm »
0

Quote
He also thinks Lookout is the best $3 trasher.  So, you know, grain of salt.

i've written a program which compares look/look, look/amb and amb/amb by playing the scenario with reasonable choices, simply boards and random shuffle luck, simulating all three 1000 000 times to see which is better, so it's probably a good idea not to argue about that anymore.

and for the record: i never actually said that lookout is the best trasher, except in my first post, which was clearly just an expression of my personal opinions. the discussion which followed (which btw was way too long and going nowhere so pls don't bring it back to life) wasn't actually about which card is better but about whether you can know how good a card is. And i'll stand by that, stats can't prove anything. I think university > familiar because there are a lot of cards which beat familiar. Amb is one of them, so is lookout, but forager works too, hermit, chapel, doctor, junk dealer, masquerade, upgreade, sometimes even forge, lighthouse, altar, trading post, some strategies don't care about curses in the first place and I'm sure I forgot something. Now if you could at least pretend to be tolerant enough to accept that I disagree that would be amazing.

I added the italics.  I'm missing the point here.  What is meant by "know how good a card is"?  Do you mean in a completely specified situation where the outcome is certain?  I mean, Dominion is a game of randomness so you have to state everything in terms of expected values and variances.  What are you saying here?

The point about University vs. Familiar doesn't seem as controversial as it's made out to be.  You seem to be saying that there are so many cards that counter Familiar that you're aren't going to want to go for it as often as you otherwise might, whereas University is useful more often.  So you can skip Familiar more often than University.  On the other hand, in cases when no Familiar counters are available, it's almost unskippable.. as in if you choose not to go for it you're almost guaranteed a loss.  This indicates quite a bit of power, which is probably why it's voted so high.  So this seems more of a subjective distinction in terms of how you measure how good a card is, not as much an objective disagreement about the dynamics of the game and those cards.*  But that's sort of the point of doing these lists.. people have disagreements in how you measure how good a card is, so what is done here is to have a voting system and then display the votes.  Then people talk about why they think something is right or wrong.  Ideally everyone learns from it.  There isn't really a need to argue.

The Lookout/Lookout vs. Ambassador/Lookout vs. Ambassador/Ambassador thing seems, well, confusing.  In what way are you comparing them?  Against each other or each of them against some Big Money benchmark?  Amb/Amb would easily win the Big Money comparison, right?

We can all basically agree that Ambassadors utility is greater than Lookouts (at least, if played correctly).  You get to get rid of two cards and junk your opponent one card.  The disadvantage is that in unlucky draws, you may have to give up two Copper and hurt your buying power, missing out on a Silver early on.  Lookout allows you to retain your hand's buying power in exchange for a much weaker effect (you don't junk your opponent, you only trash one card, and you don't get to see your options ahead of time without help.. though you do add some cycling in addition to preserving your current hand).  The question is which of these tradeoffs you value more, and most people would go with Ambassador, and they're supported by simulation results.

I wonder how good of a counter Look/Look is against someone playing Amb/Amb is.  With two nonterminal trashers that also cycle, you may be able to deal with the junk coming from Amb/Amb and maintain a greater economy in the early game.


*Though, some people might disagree about the practicality of countering Familiar in some of those situations.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2014, 01:09:54 pm »
+2

@SCSN

So essentially you have something against lurkers.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2014, 01:14:52 pm »
+1

I read silverspawn's post as being kind of sarcastic, saying "Well if you guys aren't going to listen to me arguing for these crazy* ideas, then I'll just stop posting them".  And I can understand that sentiment, though I think silverspawn is underestimating the amount of experiential evidence that goes against some of the things he has said.  But I certainly don't think that he should actually stop posting those things, because either he is wrong in which case he learns, or we are wrong in which case we learn; at least one person is getting better at Dominion, and that is why these forums exist, so we can learn from each other's experiences in Dominion.  If he does actually make some unexpected discovery and shoots up the leaderboard as a result of it (well, that's unlikely because presumably it would be a card-specific discovery which would only affect 5% of games, but maybe if he can give us a list of impressive game logs with the card in question), then it would be clear that there is a lot for us to learn from his experience.

I guess my point is that I don't think he's actually saying "I am from now on going to keep all my thoughts to myself", as SCSN seems to be assuming, but instead "If you guys aren't going to listen, then I will keep my thoughts to myself".  Which is different, because in the latter his intent is to make sure we are actually listening to what he is saying (even if we disagree), and not to actually stop posting.

*By "crazy", I just mean things that almost everyone here would disagree with; crazy does not necessarily mean wrong.
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Eevee

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2014, 01:21:07 pm »
+11

@SCSN

So essentially you have something against lurkers.
I mean, it is a known scumtell.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2014, 01:30:16 pm »
+5

On the matter of Familiar vs. University.  I agree that there are more cards which make me skip Familiar than there are cards which make me skip University.  But then, that's because there isn't really a card that makes me skip University since I don't start out with the assumption that I'll buy University.  Rather, there need to be cards present that affirmatively cause me to buy University.   In other words, if I see University is in the kingdom, I'll scan the other cards in search of a reason to buy University.  If I see Familiar in the kingdom, I'll scan the other cards in search of a reason not to buy Familiar.  So yeah, I won't be able to give a list of counters for University.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2014, 01:35:12 pm »
+1

@SCSN

So essentially you have something against lurkers.
I don't think he has anything against lurkers, he just has something against people who post just to say that they have something they could be sharing with us, but choose not to.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2014, 01:46:23 pm »
+1

@SCSN

So essentially you have something against lurkers.
I don't think he has anything against lurkers, he just has something against people who post just to say that they have something they could be sharing with us, but choose not to.
Ah, well I can see how someone can get annoyed by that. Still, you can't expect someone to want to share their thoughts and discoveries when they are consistently bashed. For Silverspawn, it's too soon to say the bashing has been consistent.
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PitzerMike

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2014, 02:00:56 pm »
0

On the matter of Familiar vs. University.  I agree that there are more cards which make me skip Familiar than there are cards which make me skip University.  But then, that's because there isn't really a card that makes me skip University since I don't start out with the assumption that I'll buy University.  Rather, there need to be cards present that affirmatively cause me to buy University.   In other words, if I see University is in the kingdom, I'll scan the other cards in search of a reason to buy University.  If I see Familiar in the kingdom, I'll scan the other cards in search of a reason not to buy Familiar.  So yeah, I won't be able to give a list of counters for University.

Yep. It's a lack of cards that makes you skip University - specifically a lack of useful fives.
From my experience this happens quite a bit more often than the presence of a Familiar counter. So for me Familiar above University is correct.
I don't think the number of cards that counter Familiar matters as much as the number of random kingdoms where such a counter is present.
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Ozle

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2014, 02:01:18 pm »
+3

TL:DR

Somebody is buying me beers I got from all that?

Right?


Also, there is only one way to settle this.....THUNDERDOME!
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2014, 03:52:46 pm »
0


And the fact that there can't be objective truths here is an objective truth. Funny, isn't it?


It's funny, but it's wrong. Depending on the definition of strength, objective truth DOES exist, dominionology just didn't find it yet.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2014, 04:10:47 pm »
+4

All sweeping generalizations are false.
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