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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards  (Read 31382 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2014, 06:00:08 pm »
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@SCSN

So essentially you have something against lurkers.
I don't think he has anything against lurkers, he just has something against people who post just to say that they have something they could be sharing with us, but choose not to.
Ah, well I can see how someone can get annoyed by that. Still, you can't expect someone to want to share their thoughts and discoveries when they are consistently bashed. For Silverspawn, it's too soon to say the bashing has been consistent.

It's true that you can't keep bashing one person. At the same time things need to be phrased right. Saying "I think A is better than B. What do you think?" is not the same as "I think A is better than B. You're wrong despite your evidence."
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2014, 06:38:54 pm »
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@WW

My problem is not with him being wrong or having a terrible learning attitude, my problem is with him being a leech. A lot of people here spend a lot of time discussing strategy, sharing insights and helping others improve their game. Then this guy comes and he's basically saying "I'm here to benefit from all your insight, but if I ever discover something on my own, I'll keep it to myself!"
Yeah, I totally get this. But my (first) point here is that it's a bit unreasonable to at one second berate someone for the incorrectness of their ideas, and at the next berate him for saying he won't share any further.

Quote
It's like when you're out with a group where over the course of the night each person buys a round of drinks, except for one guy, and he doesn't just meekly try to avoid it, he's actively boasting that he isn't going to buy any.
Ok, I don't drink, but... this happens? I mean, this is totally befuddling. So, the guy boasts that he won't buy any... ok, why are you buying any for him then? Beyond this, when you buy something for someone, it's not much of a gift if reciprocation is so expected that you'd be mad if it doesn't come back. Certainly, I don't buy things for people with the expectation of anything in return. If I did, I would call them business partners rather than friends, and I would have a contract.
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That sort of behavior is just completely unacceptable to me, so I'm going to lash out against it in a strong way that clearly gets the message across.
Then I assume you don't have a problem with people posting disagreements with your own actions. Fantastic!

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It's not personal, just Tit-for-Tat without any grudges--if he changes then all is forgotten.
Here's the issue: it is personal. It's quite obviously personal. The attacks are against him, not against lurking. Again, the post would have been something about the unfairness of "leeching" or freeloading or whatever, I don't have a problem with that. The story about going drinking - this is totally fine. There were ways I thought about saying something similar, when I made my post this morning, but I figured it would detract from the main point. (Personally, I also don't think that anyone ought to be compelled to divulge any advantages they have over opponents in a competitive strategy game, even if said opponents are doing so; I mean, seriously, I like doing this, but I really don't feel a right of expectation of it from anyone else - and many top players are around these forums without posting much if any strategy advice, without complaint so far....).

But the point is that this argument, as made, wasn't against the position, but against the person - the very definition of personal. And that's what sticks in my craw. Indeed, this last quoted bit reinforces the personal-ness of it.

WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2014, 07:23:51 pm »
+2

About the actual ranking: I actually think I'd probably put Familiar around third. I mean, it's very strong in a vacuum, and it can demand an answer, but... it doesn't really work with much of anything else, a reasonable number of strategies can actually just try to race against it (and will usually win if the opponent misses 3p, lose more often than not but still have a fighting chance if they hit 3p), and there are a lot of cards that counter it - from certain gardens slogs, to most every other curser (in the absence of other good potion-cost cards), to decent trashers (of which there quite often is one). Don't get me wrong, it's good, but...
Scrying Pool basically needs non-terminals. Well, it also needs the absence of fast non-potion stuff sometimes, and it prefers cantrips or trashers and things... well, it's VERY strong, and the best partner for scout, I think I'd put it #2 ahead of familiar and behind...
Vineyards almost just needs any kind of action. It obsoletes provinces so much it's almost funny, and there's actually a number of times where I find myself very tempted to open potion just so I can buy these green cards faster. I mean, winning the split can be huge. Ok, sometimes it's just a hard-to-get little green card (a la Gardens, Silk Road, Feodum), and even here it's kind of okay, but usually it's just a monster. And this is without noting how insane it is with gainers...

Possession probably ought to be higher. I do think that comparing it to province is reasonable (and not at the start of the game, though hey, I am pretty sure you would take a free province buy turn 0 most games - a reasonable approximation is testable by having one player get death cart, wait around until a province hand, trash the other ruins and the death cart with itself, then wait for a clean reshuffle and go, with the other player just passing before this, and assuming that ruins, death cart, or a random 10th kingdom pile aren't relevant to the kingdom otherwise), kind of, and for good swatches of most games, you would rather have possession. I actually think that more than "it's expensive", the problem with it is "it's terminal", and of course most of all "You have to get the second dead card" (potion). But generally, if an engine is possible, possession is good. In a mirror, you get to go nuts with their good hands, which aren't coming until around now anyway. Against BM, they can nuke themselves, sure, but you can just blow by with the engine sans possession there. I mean, you aren't technically getting the possession in this case, but it was a good card for you. I think I might have it at number 5, ahead of Golem even.

University should be ahead of alchemist in my view, but it's not very good. I mean, it's not a very good card to have in terms of being necropolis (though it can be ok sometimes, especially with draw-to-X), and that's a pretty big blow. But besides this, again you have to get a potion, and then you are just faster getting to 5 by going for it more directly, until you're down pretty deep to like the 6th 5-cost or something, beyond the missed opportunities early on. Obviously it's board-dependent, but this is a pretty massive tempo disadvantage.

ashersky

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2014, 10:29:57 pm »
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Scrying Pool basically needs non-terminals. Well, it also needs the absence of fast non-potion stuff sometimes, and it prefers cantrips or trashers and things... well, it's VERY strong, and the best partner for scout, I think I'd put it #2 ahead of familiar and behind...


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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2014, 11:16:03 pm »
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Scrying Pool basically needs non-terminals. Well, it also needs the absence of fast non-potion stuff sometimes, and it prefers cantrips or trashers and things... well, it's VERY strong, and the best partner for scout, I think I'd put it #2 ahead of familiar and behind...


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ehunt

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2014, 02:56:16 pm »
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a reasonable number of strategies can actually just try to race against it (and will usually win if the opponent misses 3p, lose more often than not but still have a fighting chance if they hit 3p), .

Wanted to highlight this because it's a very important point about familiar. (Edit : didnt mean for this post to be vacuous but have no content to add. If you think your strategy will lose 60% of the time they hit 3P, you should play it !)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:18:02 pm by ehunt »
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2014, 05:47:29 am »
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The bit about Transmute should have included mentionings of Dark Ages card that like Transmute. It still deserves to be #10 but the number of situations where it can be considered has definitely increased since last time.
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