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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« on: January 25, 2014, 07:02:57 am »
+22

Sorry for the long delay. Still trying to get healthy. I just finish this, but 2014 Edition starts soon.



The Best Potion Cost Cards
#10 Transmute (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 1.7% ▲0.5pp / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 7.4% ▼4.0pp
Highest Value(s): 44.4% (1x), 22.2% (1x), 11.1% (6x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (46x)

Transmute is still clearly the worst Potion cost card in this list with 46 votes on the last place, but it's a little bit higher placed and the disagreement is way higher with one vote on #6 and one vote on #8. But the deviation is still the lowest in this list, so no doubt about its placement.

Why is that card so bad? You need trashers early in the game. For Transmute you need to open Potion. Then you buy a Transmute in turn 3/4 at best and have your Transmute somewhere between turn 5 and 8! That is really slow. And what's the benefit? You can trash Estates to get Gold, ok that's really nice, but only for the 3 starting Estates and you have to draw them together. If you trash Copper you get another Transmute! Why does anyone want that unless you go for Vineyards? And trash actions to get Duchies could only be nice in the end game, but are rarely a big difference. You can also trash a Curse, but you won't get anything for that. For a pure trasher it's too slow, for a trash-for-benefit card it's too weak. When do you really want to buy one? Yes, it's better with dual-type cards like Great Hall (for Duchy and Gold) and you can heavily trash for Gold->Transmute->Duchy and try to three-pile, but I think that's just too slow in the most cases. I think the only reason when you want to buy it, if you want that Potion anyway and you desperately need a trasher anyway like on Familiar boards.
#9 Philosopher's Stone (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 14.4% ▼1.6pp / Median: 11.1% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 10.4% ▲6.3pp
Highest Value(s): 44.4% (2x), 33.3% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (6x)

6 of the remaining 8 last places got Philosopher's Stone. It's where it was and its agreement is much higher as it's the card with the second lowest deviation in this list because it got no vote in the upper half.

With Philosopher's Stone on the board and it is the only Potion cost card, it's often ignorable. And it anti-synergizes with all other Potion cards except for Familiar (with University you get a lot of cards, but mostly to build an engine). With a relative cost of ~5.5$ it's in direct comparism to Gold. This means you need 20 cards and no drawing power. With no +Buy you need 10 turns to achieve this. This is often way too late. This card gets better and better the longer the game lasts. But you want high value treasures early in the game. The only reason going for it, may be in Curse-heavy games where it's obvious you get big decks. Also it has this nice synergy with Herbalist and also Storeroom.
#8 Possession (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 32.2% ▼4.8pp / Median: 22.2% ▼11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.4% ▲5.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 88.9% (1x), 55.6% (6x) / Lowest Value(s): 11.1% (8x)

Possession stays also where it was and although it has still a really high deviation because of two big outliers on the first and second rank, its deviation is much lower than the last time. Also it lost a bit of points.

Possession seems so powerful, but in reality it isn't. It's just frustating. There's much to say about Possession, but I keep it short. First you have to realize, that it's really the most expensive kingdom card in the game as it costs ~8.5$. So, if you want it and it is the only Potion cost card on the board, don't open Potion. And the cost also means it's in direct competition with Province. When you've bought a Possession you mostly could have bought a Province instead. Its high cost makes it stronger in Colony games. When does it shine? Especially in 2-player games when your opponent opens with strong cards like Ambassador or Masquerade, you may look after an opportunity to send good cards (of course especially Provinces and Colonies) to you. With King's Court Possession is just madness. With Council Room or especially Governor you can boost the turn you get from your opponent and may even boost your own turn afterwards if he has them too. When your opponent has strong trash-for-benefit cards like Apprentice, you can even trash Provinces or Colonies to get the benefit. And if he has cards with choices like Envoy you either get stronger benefit or can mess his deck up. And if he has duration cards you can also profit from them. It may seem now that there are many situations where Possession is good. That's true, but still often ignorable because of its slowness, because at the time you play your first Possession your opponent may already have a couple of Provinces.
#7 University (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 46.6% ▲1.5pp / Median: 44.4% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9% ▼2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 77.8% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 22.2% (7x)

Again it was close between ranks #6 and #7. This time University lost this fight and did fall one rank although its average is slightly better. It has no votes on last or second last but still a lot of bad votes to make it a below average card.

The effect of University is by far not bad. Unlike Workshop you don't need to spend an action to gain a card and you don't get weak $4 cards, you get strong $5 ones. And you are able to play all of them because of the +2 Actions. But, it has the same problem as all Potion cards have. It's very slow. If you go for University and open Potion/X you lose at least one reshuffle to get the critical $5 cards (and you need to get a Potion only to get strong non-Potion cards, what?). You have to be sure to have enough time to catch up and this really depends if the cards on the board are really so strong that you want as many as you can get. So, it's very board dependant and is really nice with Watchtower/Library, Wharf, City, Torturer, Knights and any money producing cantrip and is especially good in Colony games where you often have enough time to catch up. It has only few combination potential with other Potion cards. University/Scrying Pool looks nice but is even slower. Only University/Vineyard is really strong. Beware of 3-piling with University.
#6 Alchemist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 48.2% ▲4.1pp / Median: 55.6% ▲11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.8% ▲0.5pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 88.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 22.2% (6x), 0% (1x)

After losing 4 ranks last time it's one rank higher this time. It was voted first and last once.

Alchemist is strictly superior to Laboratory and if you have a lot of Alchemists to draw most of your deck, you're almost unstoppable. But how do you get there? First you have to buy Potion and then you have to spend the next turns to buy Alchemists. That's really slow and with no source of +Buy, you aren't able to build up your economy at the same time. Alchemists are therefore more powerful in Colony games, but often weak in Province games unless you have any supporting card. That's the reason Herbalist was added in Alchemy. With Herbalist you're able to put your Potion back and get the needed +Buy. Cards that profit from big hand sizes like Bank (if you have the +Buys) are great. Outpost also synergizes perfectly. So, it's often a big question if the unstoppable Alchmist stack can be setup fast enough to be worth it going for it. Also: Beware of opponents playing with Minions or Masquerade.
#5 Golem (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 51.5% ▼0.1pp / Median: 55.6% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6% ▼0.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 88.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 22.2% (4x), 11.1% (1x)

Golem was voted also first once but has no last rank. Its rating nearly didn't change since the last time and it's also on the same rank as before. But in the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher. It has the second highest deviation.

Like Throne Room, Golem's strength heavily depends from the action cards on the board, what makes it hard to rate. But it hasn't the drawback of Throne Room or King's Court to have at least one action card in hand. You can use Golem either in action-heavy decks and may be able to play more of them in your turns even with Curses or Victory cards in your deck. It acts also as a pseudo-village. Just beware of Golem+Trasher because you have to play the drawn action card and you don't want to risk trashing a Province. Or you use it to play your only 1-2 action cards in your deck everytime you play Golem. Counting House+X Golems guarantees to draw all Coppers in hand. Golem+Scheme+strong attack is also very nice because you can play your attack every turn.  Even with those cards on board Golem is very expensive with a cost of ~6.5$. So don't open Potion with Golem being the only Potion card on the board. With Looters from Dark Ages Golem it's much weaker as you will draw Ruins into your hand with your Golem, so keep that in mind.
#4 Apothecary (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 56.0% ▼1.1pp / Median: 55.6% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 23.8% ▼0.5pp
Highest Value(s): 88.9% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 11.1% (6x)

Apothecary has the highest deviation in this list with 5 votes on second and 6 votes on second last. It would be below Golem in the unweighted ranking.

Apothecary seems very weak at first glance because of its profit of Copper. But unlike many other Potion cards it's very strong at the start at getting very strong cards very early in the game. Buy a early Forge and with your next big hand you can get rid of all your Coppers; or get an early King's Court or Goons. Later in the game it's almost never a bad card, because it's at least a cantrip and even if it draws no cards you can set the order of your next cards (basically a Cartographer without the ability to discard) and comboes nice with Wishing Well or Mystic for example. It's also strong if you build your strategy around Copper. Apothecary/Coppersmith can easily net you Provinces. The problem still is, it leaves the junk on top of the deck. With Native Village you can use this as an advantage. With 8 Coppers, a few Apothecaries and at least one Native Village you are able to buy a Province each turn. With no strong $6+ card or no synergizing card on the board, Apothecary often is not worth a Potion.
#3 Vineyard (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 69.6% ▲2.4pp / Median: 77.8% ▲11.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0% ▲1.4pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (2x), 88.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 33.3% (4x), 22.2% (1x)

We're making a big jump of over 13pp and there's Vineyard. It has only 7 votes below average and 2 first ranks.

Vineyard is another card that heavily depends from the action cards on the board. You definitely want +Buy or at least gainers to get enough action cards to make it worthwhile. +Buy is also better in getting Vineyards, because you don't waant to "waste" $6P for a Vineyard. Beside +Buy and gainers, you definitely need Villages or many catrips to be able to play all of your actions, cheap cantrips like Hamlet or Pawn are very good. Like all alternative VP strategies, you can totally ignore Provinces what gives you more time getting more action cards. Unlike all other Potion cards you can delay buying the Potion until mid-game when you already have a good running engine and even buy more Potions to buy Vineyards. It has nearly no practical limit in the max VP you can get from one Vineyard what can make it really strong and often a clearly superior strategy over Provinces. Also if your opponent goes for Cultist or Marauder they only make your Vineyards worth 3VP more and you can also use Death Cart to get a lot of Action cards at once or Rats to get even more Actions cards really fast.
#2 Scrying Pool (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 86.8% ▲2.9pp / Median: 88.9% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.1% ▲4.0pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (9x) / Lowest Value(s): 66.6% (5x), 44.4% (2x)

And now an even bigger jump of over 17pp. Scrying Pool stays on the second rank with a higher rating and much higher consensus. It was voted first 9 times and has only 2 votes below average.

Attacks that mess up the top of your deck are often weak. Scrying Pool is different because of its drawing power. It may draw your whole deck. But you mustn't have a lot of treasure cards in your deck. Its power is therefore dependant of trashers on the board and action cards that net you money. Secret Chamber/Vault is especially nice, just discard all action cards and keep one Scrying Pool in hand to get a lot of money and draw them again with your Scrying Pool. Attacks that tend to be swingy because of the top card of your opponent, like Jester or Swindler, are gaining value with Scrying Pools, because you can choose which card to keep on top. If those cards are not in the supply, Scrying Pool is just a Spy (which draws sometimes an additional card) and not worth the Potion. Scrying Pool really doesn't mind Ruins that much and can use Rats to convert non-Action cards into Action cards really fast.
#1 Familiar (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 92.9% ▼4.0pp / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8% ▼9.0pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (40x) / Lowest Value(s): 33.3% (1x), 0% (1x)

Familar is still on the first rank where 40 votes ranked it. It has two votes below average - one of them a really big outlier on the last rank, not quite understandable, so that the deviation is much higher this time and the rating also quite worse.

Cursing attacks are the strongest cards in the game. A cantrip curser is just ridiculous strong. If you haven't a plan for defense to get no curses at all or easily deal with them (which is very rare), you can't skip over Familiar. What makes Familiar one of the most hated cards is its cost. If one player doesn't get $3P while the other hits it in turn 3/4, the player who hasn't gained the Familiar is in a clear disadvantage.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 07:54:14 am »
0

University is better than Alchemist.

Also, the fact that someone gave Familiar a 0% amuses me greatly.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 09:20:16 am »
0

this is so wrong. i woud've #1'd university. it's skippable on fewer boards than familiar. can't believe it's #7

University
Vineyard
Familiar
Scrying Pool
Alchemist
Apothecary
Golem
Possession
Ph. Stone
Huge Gap
Transmute
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 11:06:31 am by silverspawn »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2014, 09:40:44 am »
+1

I'd say university vs. alchemist is iffy, but golem is worse than both of them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2014, 10:18:08 am »
0

Hey Qvist,

If you still want to do videos for the next list, I'd be happy to record some of the audio for you if you're not feeling up to it.  Thanks for compiling all these lists.

My personal rank for Potions would be:
Familiar
Vineyard
Scrying Pool
Golem
Possession
Apothecary
Alchemist
University
Philosopher's Stone
Transmute

Familiar's definitely the strongest Potion card.  You can lose games by turn 5 when it's in play.  Vineyard has gotten better and better with every expansion.  Stonemason and Looters in particular have strengthened it.  Nowadays I will almost always go for Vineyards as long as there's a single enabler for them.  I am not surprised that Possession ranks this lowly, but I have come around on it a lot recently: it's possibly the strongest game flow control card in the game once you can afford it.  Forces your opponent to behave a certain way, which you can abuse if you can read him.  I would have said University > Alchemist in the past, but it's another one that can just be too good if you actually manage to stockpile them.  The mistake most people make is buying too many Alchemists.  You only need 3 or 4, usually.  I would love to rank Transmute higher, but even with the ability to turn Ruins in to Duchies, it is way too gimmicky most of the time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 10:41:57 am »
0

I'd say university vs. alchemist is iffy, but golem is worse than both of them.

Agreed. I think I'd put University over Alchemist, but it's very close. I like Golem but it's very expensive, and pretty conditional. You will sometimes buy Potion for it alone, but much less often than for University or Alchemist I think. To be fair all three of those are close though.

Also I would put Vineyard over Scrying Pool. Both are very strong but I feel like Vineyard is viable on more boards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2014, 12:05:08 pm »
+4

I would put Scrying Pool over Familiar. Both aren't super ignorable, but other Cursers or extremely strong trashing can obsolete Familiar. Almost nothing obsoletes Scrying Pool. Even boards that aren't very good for Scrying Pool, you still go for it a lot of the time and it will still beat basic money decks because of the constant Spy effect.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2014, 12:34:24 pm »
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There's much to say about Possession, but I keep it short. First you have to realize, that it's really the most expensive kingdom card in the game as it costs ~8.5$. So, if you want it and it is the only Potion cost card on the board, don't open Potion. And the cost also means it's in direct competition with Province. When you've bought a Possession you mostly could have bought a Province instead.

This is a really strange way to compare things. Province is an absolutely awful card (just slightly better than Curse) in non-Tournament games for most of the game; ideally you don't buy any until the game is close to over. A rather extreme illustration: starting with a free Province in your deck (3xE, 1xP, 7xC) is a significant disadvantage, whereas starting with a free Possession would make it hard to lose.

Possession's cost is a weakness because it makes it relatively hard to get, not because it "competes" with Province (that's like saying that Familiar is weak because it "competes" with Duchy).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2014, 12:51:51 pm »
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this is so wrong. i woud've #1'd university. it's skippable on fewer boards than familiar. can't believe it's #7

Qvist did a good job outlying the issues with University. It's slow, and it needs good $5 cards to be worthwhile. Even when there are good $5's, you won't always want to go for University because of that early tempo loss. Looking at the old Council Room statistics (which should always be taken with a pinch of salt but they're good baseline numbers), University was gained in around 2/3rds of games, and it's win rate with is below average while win rate without is above average. Familiar was gained roughly the same amount of the time, but players won (slightly) more with it than without it.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2014, 12:57:36 pm »
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There's much to say about Possession, but I keep it short. First you have to realize, that it's really the most expensive kingdom card in the game as it costs ~8.5$. So, if you want it and it is the only Potion cost card on the board, don't open Potion. And the cost also means it's in direct competition with Province. When you've bought a Possession you mostly could have bought a Province instead.

This is a really strange way to compare things. Province is an absolutely awful card (just slightly better than Curse) in non-Tournament games for most of the game; ideally you don't buy any until the game is close to over. A rather extreme illustration: starting with a free Province in your deck (3xE, 1xP, 7xC) is a significant disadvantage, whereas starting with a free Possession would make it hard to lose.

Possession's cost is a weakness because it makes it relatively hard to get, not because it "competes" with Province (that's like saying that Familiar is weak because it "competes" with Duchy).
[/quote]

I agree with Qvist here. The main thing is, often by the time you can buy a Possession, it's late enough in the game that you would have also bought a Province. Obviously starting with a Possession would be way better than starting with a Province, but that's because you wouldn't buy either of them early in the game. It does depend on what your deck is doing though, whether you wanted Potions for anything else, etc. So it's not a perfect comparison, but it's one to keep in mind, especially if Possession is the only Potion card on the board.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2014, 01:18:04 pm »
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The main thing is, often by the time you can buy a Possession, it's late enough in the game that you would have also bought a Province.

If you find that's often the case you're greening way too early and without good reason. If you're playing an engine (obviously Possession is bad for BM) you don't just "buy a Province" because it's "late enough".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 01:23:58 pm »
+1

this is so wrong. i woud've #1'd university. it's skippable on fewer boards than familiar. can't believe it's #7

Qvist did a good job outlying the issues with University. It's slow, and it needs good $5 cards to be worthwhile. Even when there are good $5's, you won't always want to go for University because of that early tempo loss. Looking at the old Council Room statistics (which should always be taken with a pinch of salt but they're good baseline numbers), University was gained in around 2/3rds of games, and it's win rate with is below average while win rate without is above average. Familiar was gained roughly the same amount of the time, but players won (slightly) more with it than without it.

He also thinks Lookout is the best $3 trasher.  So, you know, grain of salt.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 01:27:06 pm »
0

Also: something something Apothecary and Wishing Well.

Edit: or Mystic.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 01:29:55 pm »
+1

Also: something something Apothecary and Wishing Well.

Edit: or Mystic.

Native Village, too.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2014, 01:34:38 pm »
0

Also: something something Apothecary and Wishing Well.

Edit: or Mystic.

Native Village, too.

Yes, but Qvist mentioned that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2014, 01:46:54 pm »
0

Also: something something Apothecary and Wishing Well.

Edit: or Mystic.
Later in the game it's almost never a bad card, because it's at least a cantrip and even if it draws no cards you can set the order of your next cards (basically a Cartographer without the ability to discard) and comboes nice with Wishing Well or Mystic for example.
:)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2014, 04:42:26 pm »
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I would have put possession and university slightly higher up (not too much), but other than that I think this is pretty good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2014, 08:57:04 pm »
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Quote
He also thinks Lookout is the best $3 trasher.  So, you know, grain of salt.

i've written a program which compares look/look, look/amb and amb/amb by playing the scenario with reasonable choices, simply boards and random shuffle luck, simulating all three 1000 000 times to see which is better, so it's probably a good idea not to argue about that anymore.

and for the record: i never actually said that lookout is the best trasher, except in my first post, which was clearly just an expression of my personal opinions. the discussion which followed (which btw was way too long and going nowhere so pls don't bring it back to life) wasn't actually about which card is better but about whether you can know how good a card is. And i'll stand by that, stats can't prove anything. I think university > familiar because there are a lot of cards which beat familiar. Amb is one of them, so is lookout, but forager works too, hermit, chapel, doctor, junk dealer, masquerade, upgreade, sometimes even forge, lighthouse, altar, trading post, some strategies don't care about curses in the first place and I'm sure I forgot something. Now if you could at least pretend to be tolerant enough to accept that I disagree that would be amazing.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 09:27:59 pm by silverspawn »
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2014, 09:40:05 pm »
+7

When you're disagreeing with something which is generally accepted, and people have considerable evidence of their stance for, you can hardly blame other people for demonstrating the flaws in your opinion. After all, you should really treat an opinion like something in a shopping basket: If you've got one, that's great, but if you see a better opinion, don't think twice about discarding your own and replacing it. When you start treating your opinions like something personal and owned by you, then you start to get irrational about them, trying to defend them even in the face of overwhelming opposition, and refusing to back down when it's clear the opinion is incorrect. You've already mentioned the former happened to you with Lookout, and if you wanted to argue University vs. Familiar, the same thing would almost certainly happen here.

Most of the cards you've listed don't 'beat' Familiar. They just repair some of the damage. If I'm playing a cantrip card that gives you curses, and you're playing a terminal to get rid of it, I'm getting the better deal out of my card. I would still play Familiar on many boards with Lookout, Forager, Hermit etc.. Because if I'm giving you curses, I'm slowing down the rate of thinning you can manage with those cards, and if you can't trash them all (which is pretty likely) then you're also losing some points eventually.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2014, 09:52:00 pm »
+1

Quote
He also thinks Lookout is the best $3 trasher.  So, you know, grain of salt.

i've written a program which compares look/look, look/amb and amb/amb by playing the scenario with reasonable choices, simply boards and random shuffle luck, simulating all three 1000 000 times to see which is better, so it's probably a good idea not to argue about that anymore.

lol, I'm sure that settles it then...
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Kirian

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 09:54:17 pm »
0

Now if you could at least pretend to be tolerant enough to accept that I disagree that would be amazing.

No, see, I don't tolerate trolls.  And you've now trolled the forum in two threads (not this one, though).

Also: something something Apothecary and Wishing Well.

Edit: or Mystic.
Later in the game it's almost never a bad card, because it's at least a cantrip and even if it draws no cards you can set the order of your next cards (basically a Cartographer without the ability to discard) and comboes nice with Wishing Well or Mystic for example.
:)

Oops!
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Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 10:32:57 pm »
+1

Lookout is great.  I have even opened lookout/lookout before.  A couple times in fact. 

(you know those rare situations when it is the only trasher AND tunnel is on the board AND it is a pretty weak board.  I have found that lookout/lookout is better than lookout/tunnel.  You can always buy tunnel t3 or t4 at the latest)
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Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2014, 09:15:04 am »
+1

I would have put University higher, but not higher than Familiar.

Familiar is perhaps not the fastest Junker due to the potion cost. The potion added to the deck and the lack of economy it provides makes it a bit slow in building up as well. Therefore, a strategy that can power through Familiar can be very effective. Thing is, those strategies aren't as common as they appear. You need elite trahers like Chapel, Junk Dealer/Upgrade, and I've personally had success with remake and a lot of sifters. At least, by ignoring Familiar you don't have to worry about not hitting $3p before your second reshuffle.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2014, 10:24:43 am »
+5

The top 7 $P cost cards are all pretty close in power; there's a huge gulf between them and Transmute/PStone. I think that SP, Familiar, and Vineyards are around the same power level while Apothecary, Golem, Alchemist, and University are slightly weaker on the whole.
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heatthespurs

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Potion cost cards
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 12:59:22 am »
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Other than the presence of decent trasher, I think it is not uncommon to skip Familiar when there are other strong curser (Witch, Seg Hag, Mountebanks).
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