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Author Topic: Wording help for a workshop variant  (Read 4675 times)

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Showdown35

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Wording help for a workshop variant
« on: January 24, 2014, 12:59:38 pm »
+1

I'm working on a card for my fan set, that is a Workshop variant, but for the life of me, I can't figure out an elegant way to word it and have it do what I'm trying to make it do.

Here's my wording so far:

Quote
[bold]Hooligan[/bold]
Action - $3
+1 Action
Choose a card from a supply pile that is not a Victory card, then discard the top card of your deck.
If you do, gain a copy of the chosen card if it costs at most $1 more than the cost in coins of the discarded card.

So what it does, broken down:

-You choose a card you want to gain (ex. Gold)
-You discard the top card of your deck.
-You gain the gold only if the card you discarded costs $5 or more ($1 less than Gold)
 -If the discarded card costs $4 or less, you don't gain the Gold.


Essentially, you can choose how risky of a play you want it to be.  I wanted the "$1 more" clause in there so you can always go for a Silver early on and hope to discard an Estate. Obviously the card gets way better if you've set the top card of your deck with another card.

So I'm looking for help with wording the card, and comments on the card itself.

Thanks!
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Warfreak2

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 01:05:16 pm »
+1

On Dominion cards, the phrasing is "Name a card". So it's "Name a card that is not a Victory card. Discard the top card of your deck. If the named card costs up to $1 more than the discarded card, gain it."

It's not necessary to specify that it's a supply card, because strictly speaking you can only "gain" cards from the supply, unless specifically instructed to gain from elsewhere (e.g. "gain the trashed card" or "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile").

Any particular reason you don't want to be able to gain Victory cards with it? Colony is never possible, and Province is only possible if you make a ridiculous gamble, or deliberately topdeck and then discard a good card, missing it this shuffle, in games with a $7-cost (which aren't that often). I also think it's clumsy to specify that you're talking about the cost in coins of the discarded card, Potion-cost cards with costs differing by exactly $1 are not very common and again represent a ridiculous gamble or a difficult topdecking trick.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:11:36 pm by Warfreak2 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 01:09:16 pm »
0

Here's my best shot at the wording:

Quote
Hooligan
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose a card in the Supply that is not a Victory card. Discard the top card of your deck. If the chosen card costs up to $1 more than the discarded card, gain it.
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 01:11:24 pm »
+2

On Dominion cards, the phrasing is "Name a card". So it's "Name a card that is not a Victory card. Discard the top card of your deck. If the named card costs exactly $1 more than the discarded card, gain it."

This is false. "Choose a card" is valid Dominion terminology and is more appropriate for this situation since the card chosen will always be a card in the Supply that you can see.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:15:04 pm by LastFootnote »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 01:17:06 pm »
0

Edge case: you choose Gold, and discard a Tunnel, with five Highways in play (Gold costs $1). Tunnel gains the Gold from the top of the supply pile, and then the particular card you chose is no longer in the supply.

What is false? That Dominion cards use the phrasing "name a card"?

Rebuild: "Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck..."
Journeyman: "Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck..."
Contraband: "When you play this, the player to your left names a card..."

What?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:21:07 pm by Warfreak2 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 01:28:46 pm »
+2

What is false? That Dominion cards use the phrasing "name a card"?

Rebuild: "Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck..."
Journeyman: "Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck..."
Contraband: "When you play this, the player to your left names a card..."

What?

I'm not saying that "Name a card" is never valid. I'm saying that "Choose a card" is equally valid and is more appropriate for this situation. "Name a card" is for when a copy of the named card may or may not be visible AND you only care about the card's name in order to resolve the effect. "Choose a card" is for when you're choosing one or more cards from a set of visible cards. In this case, a card is chosen from the cards visible in the Supply AND the card's cost comes into play as well as its name. Hence, "Choose a card" is the correct wording.

EDIT: Take a look at Band of Misfits. Do you "name" a card costing less than it? No, you "choose" a card in the Supply costing less than it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:35:01 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2014, 01:31:26 pm »
0

They both work, but "name a card" is typically used for situations in which you can't use anything else (for example, you can't "choose" a card with Wishing Well because the options aren't visible).
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2014, 01:36:27 pm »
0

Edge case: you choose Gold, and discard a Tunnel, with five Highways in play (Gold costs $1). Tunnel gains the Gold from the top of the supply pile, and then the particular card you chose is no longer in the supply.

Hmm, good call. So…

Quote
Hooligan
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Choose a card in the Supply that is not a Victory card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If the chosen card costs up to $1 more than the revealed card, gain it. Discard the revealed card.
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 01:43:17 pm »
0

So you are citing Band of Misfits, but Band of Misfits is one of the two most unusual cards in all of Dominion (alongside Possession), and needs to specify "in the supply" because no gaining takes place. Meanwhile, at least five published cards use the "name a card" phrasing (Rebuild, Journeyman, Wishing Well, Mystic, Contraband).

Contraband also shares the weird edge case of a particular chosen card being gained somehow (e.g. with Border Village, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Stonemason or Farmland), revealing one underneath it with the same name which would then not be "the chosen card" but would still be a card of that name.

But sure, "choose a card" is a valid phrase to put on a Dominion card. What did I say that is false?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 01:54:34 pm »
+3

So you are citing Band of Misfits, but Band of Misfits is one of the two most unusual cards in all of Dominion (alongside Possession), and needs to specify "in the supply" because no gaining takes place. Meanwhile, at least five published cards use the "name a card" phrasing (Rebuild, Journeyman, Wishing Well, Mystic, Contraband).

Contraband also shares the weird edge case of a particular chosen card being gained somehow (e.g. with Border Village, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Stonemason or Farmland), revealing one underneath it with the same name which would then not be "the chosen card" but would still be a card of that name.

Look, man. In Dominion, "Name a card" really just means "Say a thing". You're just spouting off one or more words, and then if those words happen to match the names of particular Dominion cards, something happens. The card you name isn't necessarily visible, so you can't assume that its types, cost, or content is known. "Name a card that is not a Victory card" is invalid. Who knows whether any or all the cards with that name are Victory cards? In order for "Name a card" to work here, you'd need to word the card like this:

Quote
Hooligan
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Name a card. Discard the top card of your deck. Gain a card from Supply that is the named card and is not a Victory card and costs up to $1 more than the discarded card.

Ugh. That is some crappy wording.

But sure, "choose a card" is a valid phrase to put on a Dominion card. What did I say that is false?

You said this:

On Dominion cards, the phrasing is "Name a card". So it's "Name a card that is not a Victory card. Discard the top card of your deck. If the named card costs up to $1 more than the discarded card, gain it."

While this doesn't say that "choose a card" is invalid, it strongly implies that it is. You corrected his valid "choose a card" wording by changing it to "name a card".
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:56:33 pm by LastFootnote »
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Showdown35

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 02:13:26 pm »
+1

Woah woah woah... didn't mean to cause a big debate between "name a card" and "choose a card", but I guess I did!

Anyway, another thing I worry about is that I have to specify to "gain a copy of the chosen card" because there is a chance that the top card of the supply that was chosen is not there anymore when you resolve the gaining part. In the tunnel example, the actual chosen gold is gone when tunnel interrupts the resolution of hooligan, so technically you gain a copy of the chosen card.

I suppose I could work it as "Choose a supply pile" then you gain the "top card of the chosen supply pile".  That would allow you to gain a Knight if the top one somehow disappears during resolution of hooligan.

Any particular reason you don't want to be able to gain Victory cards with it? Colony is never possible, and Province is only possible if you make a ridiculous gamble, or deliberately topdeck and then discard a good card, missing it this shuffle, in games with a $7-cost (which aren't that often). I also think it's clumsy to specify that you're talking about the cost in coins of the discarded card, Potion-cost cards with costs differing by exactly $1 are not very common and again represent a ridiculous gamble or a difficult topdecking trick.

The reason I put in "not a Victory card" was because you can gain a Province if you discard a Province from the top of your deck (It's costing at least $1 less than the chosen card, so same cost gets you the card).  It wouldn't be that hard, later in the game, to rig the top of your deck with a Province and make it a little too easy for the Province leader to grab more Provinces for free (actually, even better than free, because you get to discard the useless Province from your deck), not the spirit I'm looking for.
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 05:47:24 pm »
+1

I think it should be pick a card!
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 01:56:02 am »
0

I think it should be pick a card!

Select a card!
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 02:15:05 am »
0

Twisted Fates
3$ - Action
+1 Action
Gain a card.  Reveal the top card of your deck.  If the card you gained costs 2$ more or 1$+P more than the card you revealed, trash the card you gained.  If the card you gained is a victory card, trash card you revealed.



Yeah track Watchtower through that mess because I'm a clever @*($@:*::&#.


Note this can trash Provinces from the supply instead of improving your deck a la Remodel, but you are penalized by randomly trashing things from the top of your deck.  Trashing Estates and ending the game have some antisynergy going on that discourages that kind of unruly behavior.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 02:16:21 am by popsofctown »
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Showdown35

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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2014, 02:44:27 am »
0

Ok, here's how we're looking:
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2014, 07:26:43 am »
+1

Any particular reason you don't want to be able to gain Victory cards with it? Colony is never possible, and Province is only possible if you make a ridiculous gamble, or deliberately topdeck and then discard a good card, missing it this shuffle, in games with a $7-cost (which aren't that often).

You could discard a Colony/Province.

(I agreed with the Supply/in coins comments.)
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2014, 07:50:17 am »
0

I originally misread the card as "exactly $1 more than".
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2014, 07:59:49 am »
0

On Dominion cards, the phrasing is "Name a card". So it's "Name a card that is not a Victory card. Discard the top card of your deck. If the named card costs up to $1 more than the discarded card, gain it."

While this doesn't say that "choose a card" is invalid, it strongly implies that it is. You corrected his valid "choose a card" wording by changing it to "name a card".

That "strong implication" is a fiction in your own mind. My statement makes no mention at all of validity-of-phrasing-on-Dominion-cards, which was a concept you introduced to the discussion. Nothing I said was false, and it's pretty darn silly to respond to "I think A!" with "I think A=>B, therefore I think you think B!". It's a simple matter of fact that Dominion cards use the phrasing "Name a card", to make any argument at all about that is totally ridiculous.

As for "what if nobody remembers whether the named card is a Victory card, and the card is not left in the supply?", then the card is not left in the supply so you aren't going to gain it anyway, number of problems = absolutely zero.
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2014, 09:22:41 am »
+3

That "strong implication" is a fiction in your own mind. My statement makes no mention at all of validity-of-phrasing-on-Dominion-cards, which was a concept you introduced to the discussion. Nothing I said was false, and it's pretty darn silly to respond to "I think A!" with "I think A=>B, therefore I think you think B!". It's a simple matter of fact that Dominion cards use the phrasing "Name a card", to make any argument at all about that is totally ridiculous.
"On Dominion cards, the phrasing is 'Name a card'" is your statement. I find it difficult to understand this as anything other than "'Name a card' is the only valid phrasing on Dominion cards".
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2014, 01:09:59 pm »
0

Ok ok. This doesnt have to be an argument thread (I'd rather it not be, since I was simply asking for feedback on a card), so I'll try to ease the tension a little.

As it is widely known, misinterpretation is very common when it comes to communication that is not face to face, or at least over the phone. Reading someone elses written words is wrought with peril as it is impossible to truly know with what inflection and tone the words were being thought/said. With that in mind, lets just say Warfreak was simply offering his take on the best wording, comparing it to official Dominion cards. Since he was the first responder, its quite clear he wasnt trying to tell anyone else that their suggestion is wrong.
 I agree that the wording "on Dominion cards, its _____" does seem to be a definitive statement, but let's not jump on warfreak and assume he meant that no other wording is valid. One word like "most" or "some" in that statement would have completely changed this thread, I believe, and who's to say Warfreak wasn't thinking that originally?
 Anyway, I think a few posts here have been taken as attacks when they likely were not meant as attacks, so if hopefully we can all just agree that both "name a card" and "choose a card" have been printed on official cards.

 I would like some more feedback on the card itself though, is it priced fairly at $3? Should I limit the card chosen to $6 and drop the non-victory condition? Do you like it? Is it interesting? Obviously I think it is, but now that I'm happy with the wording, I'd appreciate some critiques of the mechanic and price.

Thanks!
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 02:58:15 pm »
0

I like the mechanic of the card! You have to balance whether you want to try to get an expensive card with low probability or get a cheap card with high probability. Other than that, I think it's very weak. If you reveal a copper, you won't get anything (assuming you chose/named something costing at least $2), so I think you only want this with strong trashing. But even then I'm not sure how often you will get $5-cards with it (and, say 50% chance for a $5 is too little). You probably need some topdeck-knowledge to make this viable.

You should keep a condition so that you can't gain Provinces/Colonies. Arranging that you have a Province on top of your deck isn't that hard, and that would be too easy to gain a province. I'd say keep the condition as-is, gaining a Fairgrounds is also (too?) good.
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 03:41:09 pm »
0

Maybe trash the discarded card if you gain a Victory. That way, you can use it to gain Victory cards at the end-game, but only at the cost of some good card. That way, it feels similar to using HoP, which is the only other gainer I can think of that gains Provinces without cost reduction tricks.
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2014, 12:42:46 am »
0

Maybe trash the discarded card if you gain a Victory. That way, you can use it to gain Victory cards at the end-game, but only at the cost of some good card. That way, it feels similar to using HoP, which is the only other gainer I can think of that gains Provinces without cost reduction tricks.
My version does that too!
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Re: Wording help for a workshop variant
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 05:57:43 pm »
0

Quote
"Name a card". So it's "Name a card that is not a Victory card. Discard the top card of your deck. If the named card costs up to $1 more than the discarded card, gain a copy of it."

That's better wording i think.
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