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AJD

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Nonterminal percentage
« on: January 23, 2014, 11:58:13 pm »
+4

So, the base set has way fewer non-terminal Actions among its kingdom cards than any expansion except Prosperity (which makes up for its small number of non-terminal Actions with a large number of Treasures). Any idea why this is the case?

Prosperity: 26%
4 nonterminal, 12 terminal, 1 King's Court

Dominion: 27%
6 nonterminal, 18 terminal, 1 Throne Room

Hinterlands: 37.5%
6 nonterminal, 11 terminal, 3 variable

Seaside: 38%
10 nonterminal, 16 terminal

Intrigue: 41%
7 nonterminal, 11 terminal, 5 variable

Guilds: 42%
5 nonterminal, 7 terminal

Cornucopia: 45%
5 nonterminal, 6 terminal
…Maybe demote it to 42%, since Tournament can add terminals to your deck.

Dark Ages: 45%
13.2 nonterminal, 16.8 terminal,  2 variable, 1 Procession

Alchemy: 72%
6 nonterminal, 3 terminal, 1 Golem
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 03:44:22 am »
0

What are the ratios if you count Treasures as non terminals?

I can understand not wanting 5 minute turns in the base set, but I don't think it had to be that way. I've been pretty vocal about my distaste for the base set around here.
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silverspawn

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 07:21:40 am »
+1

I don't think it makes a lot of sense not to count treasure cards. For the most part, treasures are non-terminals with the benefit that you can't draw them dead. So the stats would probably be more interesting if you counted (non-terminal + treasure)/(non-terminal + treasure + terminal) for every expansion. KC+TR+PR can also be counted as non-terminals because you want them to collide with other actions.
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soulnet

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 11:29:52 am »
0

Are you counting Stables as variable? I guess it is safe to say it is non-terminal, but still, technically it can be either.

I guess correctly that you are not counting Ruins nor Necropolis?

How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 11:47:48 am »
0

Are you counting Stables as variable? I guess it is safe to say it is non-terminal, but still, technically it can be either.

I guess correctly that you are not counting Ruins nor Necropolis?

How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

I definitely wouldn't call Stables terminal, because there's no (edge cases, blah blah) reason to play it if you aren't using its non-terminal ability.

However, cards like Nobles and Spice Merchant could definitely be considered either. But in general I would call something non-terminal if it's possibly to play it with only 1 action remaining, and still play another card after. Procession, Throne Room, and King's Court being the exceptions.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 11:52:35 am »
0

Are you counting Stables as variable? I guess it is safe to say it is non-terminal, but still, technically it can be either.

I guess correctly that you are not counting Ruins nor Necropolis?

How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

I definitely wouldn't call Stables terminal, because there's no (edge cases, blah blah) reason to play it if you aren't using its non-terminal ability.

However, cards like Nobles and Spice Merchant could definitely be considered either. But in general I would call something non-terminal if it's possibly to play it with only 1 action remaining, and still play another card after. Procession, Throne Room, and King's Court being the exceptions.

I wouldn't make exceptions for the Throne Room variants at all. I consider them all to be firmly non-terminal.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2014, 11:59:32 am »
0

Are you counting Stables as variable? I guess it is safe to say it is non-terminal, but still, technically it can be either.

I guess correctly that you are not counting Ruins nor Necropolis?

How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

I definitely wouldn't call Stables terminal, because there's no (edge cases, blah blah) reason to play it if you aren't using its non-terminal ability.

However, cards like Nobles and Spice Merchant could definitely be considered either. But in general I would call something non-terminal if it's possibly to play it with only 1 action remaining, and still play another card after. Procession, Throne Room, and King's Court being the exceptions.

I wouldn't make exceptions for the Throne Room variants at all. I consider them all to be firmly non-terminal.

I consider them a 3rd category; neither terminal nor non-terminal. More often than not, they cause an action to be taken away from your bank (given that more than half the actions are terminal). But they do also let you play 2 terminals on a turn, which makes them more like a Village.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2014, 12:18:41 pm »
0

Couldn't duration cards be considered somewhat special?  In the following turn, it's "as if" you played an additional action.
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AJD

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 12:53:49 pm »
0

Are you counting Stables as variable? I guess it is safe to say it is non-terminal, but still, technically it can be either.

I counted Stables as variable; it seemed the most accountable way to deal with the question.

Quote
I guess correctly that you are not counting Ruins nor Necropolis?

Right; maybe I should have counted Necropolis, I don't know. It doesn't matter whether Madman and Mercenary are counted, since they cancel each other out.

Quote
How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

Eh, if you have two Wharfs in your hand without +Actions, you can only play one of them; that's terminal enough for me.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 01:16:59 pm »
0



Quote
How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

Eh, if you have two Wharfs in your hand without +Actions, you can only play one of them; that's terminal enough for me.

Yeah, but if you played a Wharf last turn and draw a Wharf this turn, you've effectively played two terminal draws this turn.
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Awaclus

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 01:24:55 pm »
+1



Quote
How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

Eh, if you have two Wharfs in your hand without +Actions, you can only play one of them; that's terminal enough for me.

Yeah, but if you played a Wharf last turn and draw a Wharf this turn, you've effectively played two terminal draws this turn.
The fact that a single Wharf alone is as powerful as two terminal draws doesn't make it any less terminal.
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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 01:26:22 pm »
0

If you get to play an action card without using one of your actions, then whatever allowed you to do that is non-terminal in the same sense as Throne Room, King's Court, Procession and Golem.

If Fishing Village only gave +1 Action on the current turn, but still +1 Action next turn, it would still be a village.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:27:51 pm by Warfreak2 »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2014, 01:28:10 pm »
+6

It doesn't matter whether Madman and Mercenary are counted, since they cancel each other out.

Noooo, that's so wrong! If you add 1 card to each side, then the percentage will be closer to 50% than it was before. (If you add 10000 cards to each side, the percentage would suddenly become almost 50%). In order to cancel out a set with 25% non-terminals, you would need to add 1 non-terminal and 3 terminals, not 1 of each.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2014, 01:34:23 pm »
0



Quote
How are you counting Reactions and Durations? Terminal Durations are, in some sense, half-non-terminal (for instance, you usually allow about twice as many in a villageless deck as you allow regular terminal Actions).

Eh, if you have two Wharfs in your hand without +Actions, you can only play one of them; that's terminal enough for me.

Yeah, but if you played a Wharf last turn and draw a Wharf this turn, you've effectively played two terminal draws this turn.
The fact that a single Wharf alone is as powerful as two terminal draws doesn't make it any less terminal.

But I'm not comparing the single Wharf to two terminals, I'm comparing the latter half of the previous Wharf and the first half of a currrent Wharf to two terminals.  Okay the distinction is minor, but the Peddler still costs $4 less instead of $2.  Or your single Wharf from last turn is like playing a nonterminal Smithy this turn.

So yes a Wharf is terminal, but it's kind of like a terminal*.. the functionality is different, and you probably require less Villages compared to regular terminals as someone mentioned.
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Awaclus

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2014, 01:43:15 pm »
0

If you get to play an action card without using one of your actions, then whatever allowed you to do that is non-terminal in the same sense as Throne Room, King's Court, Procession and Golem.

If Fishing Village only gave +1 Action on the current turn, but still +1 Action next turn, it would still be a village.
But you don't actually play Fishing Village again. You play it once, and it gives an action to replace the action you spent. Later, it gives you an extra action. Just like Village, except that Village gives the extra action immediately.
But I'm not comparing the single Wharf to two terminals, I'm comparing the latter half of the previous Wharf and the first half of a currrent Wharf to two terminals.  Okay the distinction is minor, but the Peddler still costs $4 less instead of $2.  Or your single Wharf from last turn is like playing a nonterminal Smithy this turn.

So yes a Wharf is terminal, but it's kind of like a terminal*.. the functionality is different, and you probably require less Villages compared to regular terminals as someone mentioned.
Peddler is an edge case. Your single Wharf from last turn is more like playing a Council Room last turn, except that the effect is just spread over two turns and is more powerful. It's true that you require less villages, but that's because Wharfs stay out and miss the reshuffle a lot.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 01:47:17 pm »
0

If you get to play an action card without using one of your actions, then whatever allowed you to do that is non-terminal in the same sense as Throne Room, King's Court, Procession and Golem.

If Fishing Village only gave +1 Action on the current turn, but still +1 Action next turn, it would still be a village.
But you don't actually play Fishing Village again. You play it once, and it gives an action to replace the action you spent. Later, it gives you an extra action. Just like Village, except that Village gives the extra action immediately.
But I'm not comparing the single Wharf to two terminals, I'm comparing the latter half of the previous Wharf and the first half of a currrent Wharf to two terminals.  Okay the distinction is minor, but the Peddler still costs $4 less instead of $2.  Or your single Wharf from last turn is like playing a nonterminal Smithy this turn.

So yes a Wharf is terminal, but it's kind of like a terminal*.. the functionality is different, and you probably require less Villages compared to regular terminals as someone mentioned.
Peddler is an edge case. Your single Wharf from last turn is more like playing a Council Room last turn, except that the effect is just spread over two turns and is more powerful. It's true that you require less villages, but that's because Wharfs stay out and miss the reshuffle a lot.

But that's significant when thinking of terminal collision, right? They stay out, which would change the collision probabilities (I would assume).
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silverspawn

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2014, 01:56:33 pm »
0

If you get to play an action card without using one of your actions, then whatever allowed you to do that is non-terminal in the same sense as Throne Room, King's Court, Procession and Golem.

If Fishing Village only gave +1 Action on the current turn, but still +1 Action next turn, it would still be a village.
But you don't actually play Fishing Village again. You play it once, and it gives an action to replace the action you spent. Later, it gives you an extra action. Just like Village, except that Village gives the extra action immediately.
But I'm not comparing the single Wharf to two terminals, I'm comparing the latter half of the previous Wharf and the first half of a currrent Wharf to two terminals.  Okay the distinction is minor, but the Peddler still costs $4 less instead of $2.  Or your single Wharf from last turn is like playing a nonterminal Smithy this turn.

So yes a Wharf is terminal, but it's kind of like a terminal*.. the functionality is different, and you probably require less Villages compared to regular terminals as someone mentioned.
Peddler is an edge case. Your single Wharf from last turn is more like playing a Council Room last turn, except that the effect is just spread over two turns and is more powerful. It's true that you require less villages, but that's because Wharfs stay out and miss the reshuffle a lot.

But that's significant when thinking of terminal collision, right? They stay out, which would change the collision probabilities (I would assume).

wharf is so ridiculous that you actually buy two of them without having any villages quite often. you would not do that if they wouldn't have the duration effect.

the way i see it is that it costs 1/2 action. notice that you could rephrase wharf to:

+2 cards
+1 buy
at the beginning of your next turn, move this to your hand, +1action and you have to play it immediately.

in that way it would also be "half" a terminal
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Awaclus

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2014, 02:03:34 pm »
+1

the way i see it is that it costs 1/2 action. notice that you could rephrase wharf to:

+2 cards
+1 buy
at the beginning of your next turn, move this to your hand, +1action and you have to play it immediately.

in that way it would also be "half" a terminal
You can also rephrase Smithy to:

+1 card
If this is your first or second time playing this this turn, move this to your hand, +1 action and you have to play it immediately.

Doesn't make it a 1/3 terminal.

And I would totally buy two $5 cards that just say +4 cards, +2 buys if I was playing big money. That card is ridiculously overpowered.

If you get to play an action card without using one of your actions, then whatever allowed you to do that is non-terminal in the same sense as Throne Room, King's Court, Procession and Golem.

If Fishing Village only gave +1 Action on the current turn, but still +1 Action next turn, it would still be a village.
But you don't actually play Fishing Village again. You play it once, and it gives an action to replace the action you spent. Later, it gives you an extra action. Just like Village, except that Village gives the extra action immediately.
But I'm not comparing the single Wharf to two terminals, I'm comparing the latter half of the previous Wharf and the first half of a currrent Wharf to two terminals.  Okay the distinction is minor, but the Peddler still costs $4 less instead of $2.  Or your single Wharf from last turn is like playing a nonterminal Smithy this turn.

So yes a Wharf is terminal, but it's kind of like a terminal*.. the functionality is different, and you probably require less Villages compared to regular terminals as someone mentioned.
Peddler is an edge case. Your single Wharf from last turn is more like playing a Council Room last turn, except that the effect is just spread over two turns and is more powerful. It's true that you require less villages, but that's because Wharfs stay out and miss the reshuffle a lot.

But that's significant when thinking of terminal collision, right? They stay out, which would change the collision probabilities (I would assume).
It is somewhat significant, yes.
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AJD

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2014, 02:08:55 pm »
0

It doesn't matter whether Madman and Mercenary are counted, since they cancel each other out.

Noooo, that's so wrong! If you add 1 card to each side, then the percentage will be closer to 50% than it was before.

I wouldn't be adding 1 card to each side; I'd be counting Urchin as half terminal and Hermit as half nonterminal. The unit of counting here is Kingdom Action cards, not differently-named Action cards.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2014, 02:12:06 pm »
0

It doesn't matter whether Madman and Mercenary are counted, since they cancel each other out.

Noooo, that's so wrong! If you add 1 card to each side, then the percentage will be closer to 50% than it was before.

I wouldn't be adding 1 card to each side; I'd be counting Urchin as half terminal and Hermit as half nonterminal. The unit of counting here is Kingdom Action cards, not differently-named Action cards.

But even so, counting each one as half, or not counting either because they're both special, is different than counting 1 as terminal and 1 as non-terminal.
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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2014, 02:12:58 pm »
+3


wharf is so ridiculous that you actually buy two of them without having any villages quite often. you would not do that if they wouldn't have the duration effect.


Um, I'll buy 2 Smithies or 2 Council Rooms on a board without any Villages plenty often...
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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2014, 02:25:16 pm »
+3


wharf is so ridiculous that you actually buy two of them without having any villages quite often. you would not do that if they wouldn't have the duration effect.


Um, I'll buy 2 Smithies or 2 Council Rooms on a board without any Villages plenty often...

Agreed, but I'd buy 3 or 4 Wharves in the same situation.
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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2014, 02:30:16 pm »
0

And I would totally buy two $5 cards that just say +4 cards, +2 buys if I was playing big money. That card is ridiculously overpowered.
wharf does just that, except that you need twice as many of them. but you wouldn't buy two +4cards+2buys if you draw your deck anyway with a stables or hunting party engine. the point is simply that you only need one action to support two wharfs in a working deck, so it only costs 1/2 action. rephrasing smithy like that is balls, because it happens in the same turn
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:34:55 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2014, 03:15:45 pm »
+2

the point is simply that you only need one action to support two wharfs in a working deck, so it only costs 1/2 action.

This doesn't make sense. Wharf costs one Action to play. If you're drawing your deck, you need two Wharfs in your deck to be able to regularly do so, but you're still only playing one Wharf per turn.
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Re: Nonterminal percentage
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 03:19:28 pm »
+1

And I would totally buy two $5 cards that just say +4 cards, +2 buys if I was playing big money. That card is ridiculously overpowered.
wharf does just that, except that you need twice as many of them. but you wouldn't buy two +4cards+2buys if you draw your deck anyway with a stables or hunting party engine. the point is simply that you only need one action to support two wharfs in a working deck, so it only costs 1/2 action. rephrasing smithy like that is balls, because it happens in the same turn
That's like saying that Pillage is entirely non-terminal because you can buy another Pillage every turn without having to deal with terminal collision if you're always drawing your entire deck.

Yes, you can only play one Wharf per two turns, but that is a limitation, not an advantage. It's not that you need only one action to support two Wharfs in a working deck, it's that you need two Wharfs to be able to play one Wharf every turn.

Rephrasing Smithy like that is, indeed, balls. That's what I was demonstrating. Rephrasing cards like that is balls.
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