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Author Topic: Reactions are confusing, man  (Read 27689 times)

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AJD

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Reactions are confusing, man
« on: November 21, 2011, 12:30:08 pm »
+2

So as we all know, you can reveal the same Reaction multiple times in response to the same event. So if you reveal Secret Chamber "when another player plays an Attack", and go through the whole draw-and-discard rigmarole, once you're done with that it's still "when another player plays an Attack" and you can reveal the Secret Chamber again if you want to (or some other when-Attack reaction).

Isotropic implements this correctly for Secret Chamber, Moat, and arguably Trader. For Horse Traders and Fool's Gold it's moot, because once you've used it to React once it's no longer available to be revealed again.

For Watchtower, should you be able to (pointlessly) reveal it multiple times for the same when-gain event, bouncing the gained card back and forth between the trash and your deck until you decide where you want it? Does this have something to do with the losing-track principle?

And perhaps more meaningfully, I can't figure out what in the rules prevents you from revealing the same Tunnel more than once as it's being discarded. The losing-track principle can't be involved here; if gaining a Gold caused you to lose track of the discarded Tunnel, it would (since Donald tells us discarding happens simultaneously) cause you to lose track of other discarded Tunnels as well, and we know that's not true since you can reveal multiple distinct Tunnels in reaction to the same discard event. So why can't you reveal the same Tunnel more than once? (Note: I'm not claiming you can; I just don't understand why you can't.)
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Young Nick

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 01:27:19 pm »
+1

Your point about Watchtower seems to be incorrect. If I am remembering the card correctly, it triggers on a card being gained. You only gain the curse once per Witch (or whatever attack have you) being played. Thus, you get to put the card in the trash or on top of your deck, but you are no longer gaining it. It has been placed somewhere else and you are no longer gaining it. I am not sure about Tunnel, though.
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 01:35:41 pm »
0

Your point about Watchtower seems to be incorrect. If I am remembering the card correctly, it triggers on a card being gained. You only gain the curse once per Witch (or whatever attack have you) being played. Thus, you get to put the card in the trash or on top of your deck, but you are no longer gaining it. It has been placed somewhere else and you are no longer gaining it.

So it seems to me that ordinarily reactions take zero game time (as it were), right? That is, someone plays a Pirate Ship, and you reveal a Secret Chamber and spend five minutes fiddling with the top cards of your deck, and once you're done, it's still "when another player plays an Attack" and you can reveal the Secret Chamber again and start over, right? Why wouldn't this apply to Watchtower equally? You gain a card, you reveal the Watchtower and move the gained card somewhere; but once you're finished doing that, no time has passed and it's still "when you gain a card".
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 01:38:59 pm »
0

So why can't you reveal the same Tunnel more than once? (Note: I'm not claiming you can; I just don't understand why you can't.)

(...And to clarify again here, of course I understand why you can't in the sense of "because if you could, it would be terrible and mean the card would be broken". I agree! But given that it would be terrible and broken for the card to allow you to do it, why can't I figure out what in the rules of the game stops the card from allowing you to do that?)
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DG

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 01:58:40 pm »
0

Quote
But given that it would be terrible and broken for the card to allow you to do it, why can't I figure out what in the rules of the game stops the card from allowing you to do that?

It's probably the same thing that stops a player from reacting to an event repeatedly, continuously, without end, creating an infinite game that has no conclusion. Common sense!
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2011, 02:11:32 pm »
0

Quote
But given that it would be terrible and broken for the card to allow you to do it, why can't I figure out what in the rules of the game stops the card from allowing you to do that?

It's probably the same thing that stops a player from reacting to an event repeatedly, continuously, without end, creating an infinite game that has no conclusion. Common sense!

Hmm? Common sense would dictate that, upon discarding my Tunnel, I should repeatedly reveal it until all the Golds are in my deck, and then stop revealing it and proceed. Clearly I'm actually not allowed to do that; it's not just common sense or common courtesy that prevents me.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2011, 03:34:41 pm »
0

I hope Donald weighs in on this one... you seem to have a really good point, and I'm not quite sure what stops Tunnel from doing that. Actually, can't you say the exact same thing about the "When gain" cards? They aren't listed as reactions, but they do react to being gained. So, when you gain Border Village, what stops you from saying "I react to Border Village being gained by gaining Torturer. Now I react to Border Village being gained by gaining a Torturer again."

The wording seems to be the exact same. "When another player plays an attack card." "When you gain this." Both are things you can do "when something happens." Why can you do one of them only once, but the other multiple times?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2011, 03:44:59 pm »
0

As for Watchtower, even without the Lose Track Rule, revealing it multiple times to bounce it back and forth between your deck and the trash is no different than revealing a Secret Chamber multiple times consecutively.

For Tunnel, I believe you reveal it as you discard it. So you're not really revealing it from your hand or from the discard pile. I suppose it's just implicit that you can't reveal it multiple times during the same discard, and after the first discard, it's in your discard pile. Compare this to most Reaction cards, which get revealed from your hand and placed back in your hand afterward. Because it's still in your hand, you can reveal it from your hand again.
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biopower

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 03:46:43 pm »
0

Hmm? Common sense would dictate that, upon discarding my Tunnel, I should repeatedly reveal it until all the Golds are in my deck, and then stop revealing it and proceed. Clearly I'm actually not allowed to do that; it's not just common sense or common courtesy that prevents me.

Quoting the base rulebook,
Quote
"Reveal" - when a player reveals a card, he shows a card to all players and then returns it to wherever it came from (unless instructed specifically to put it elsewhere). If the player is required to reveal cards from the top of his Deck, and he does not have enough cards, he shuffles in order to reveal the required number of cards.

I'd assume that for Tunnel, after you reveal it, it goes straight to the Discard. At that point, you are no longer discarding it, and thus can't reveal it.

I'm not sure about Watchtower though; I think your point probably holds that it's probably the same on-gain event that you can react to.
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2011, 03:54:41 pm »
0

As for Watchtower, even without the Lose Track Rule, revealing it multiple times to bounce it back and forth between your deck and the trash is no different than revealing a Secret Chamber multiple times consecutively.

True! But, you know, you're still allowed to reveal the Secret Chamber or even the Moat multiple times consecutively.

For Tunnel, I believe you reveal it as you discard it. So you're not really revealing it from your hand or from the discard pile. I suppose it's just implicit that you can't reveal it multiple times during the same discard, and after the first discard, it's in your discard pile. Compare this to most Reaction cards, which get revealed from your hand and placed back in your hand afterward. Because it's still in your hand, you can reveal it from your hand again.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1004.msg15493#msg15493">This post from Donald</a> suggests that Tunnel actually gets revealed from the discard pile.
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Donald X.

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 04:40:48 pm »
0

Border Village causes something else to happen when you gain it (and Tunnel optionally does when it's discarded). You only gain it once so it only causes that thing to happen once.

The reason "when an opponent plays an attack card" is an exception to this is because we can't tell if you drew that Moat off of Secret Chamber or had it in your hand already, and if you had it in your hand you could use it, because you would just be picking the order to do two things you wanted to do at the same time. So we let you use it whether it was in your hand or not, and ditto a second Secret Chamber.
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2011, 04:51:51 pm »
0

So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
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Donald X.

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 08:05:00 pm »
0

So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
The reason that we let you reveal Moat / Secret Chamber twice is because we can't tell if you had multiples or what.
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2011, 08:15:30 pm »
0

So, to clarify, the reason you can reveal the same reaction card twice from your hand in response to a single event is because, since it's in your hand, the other players can't tell whether you're revealing one card or multiple copies, whereas with Tunnel the other players would be able to tell that you're revealing the same card twice?
The reason that we let you reveal Moat / Secret Chamber twice is because we can't tell if you had multiples or what.

I'll take that as a yes?
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Donald X.

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 09:07:24 pm »
0

I'll take that as a yes?
You did not get a "yes" because I wanted to be more accurate than you had been.
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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 09:45:33 pm »
0

I'll take that as a yes?
You did not get a "yes" because I wanted to be more accurate than you had been.

All right, I mean, I'm just— the rules for reactions are confusing, man, that's all. And not fully explained in the rulebooks, as far as I can tell.
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Donald X.

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2011, 10:12:15 pm »
0

All right, I mean, I'm just— the rules for reactions are confusing, man, that's all. And not fully explained in the rulebooks, as far as I can tell.
It would have been nice to have a section in the main set rulebook that explained the types, for sure.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2011, 04:24:42 am »
+3


event
 
reaction card
multiple
show
multiple
useful
attack played Horse Trader no  
attack played Moat yes no
attack played Secret Chamber yes yes
gain card Trader yes no
gain card Watchtower no  
Province gained Fool's Gold no  
discard Tunnel no  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 04:35:00 am by Dominionaer »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 09:56:02 am »
0


event
 
reaction card
multiple
show
multiple
useful
attack played Horse Trader no  
attack played Moat yes no
attack played Secret Chamber yes yes
gain card Trader yes no
gain card Watchtower no  
Province gained Fool's Gold no  
discard Tunnel no  

Nice. Is this the current Isotropic implementation of all these? I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.

Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.


« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 10:03:58 am by GendoIkari »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2011, 11:05:45 am »
+1

I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.

I think the difference is, when you've finished revealing + resolving Moat or Secret Chamber, it's still at the point of "Opponent has played an attack card", but when you've finished with Watchtower, it's moved past the point of "Gained a card" and is now at the point of "Trashed a card" or "Put a card on top of your deck". You can't reveal another Watchtower because the event that it would be reacting to has come and gone.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2011, 11:14:57 am »
+1

I can see that logic too, but there doesn't seem to be a defined rule on when the event to react to actually ends. It seems like "when your opponent plays an attack card" is 1 exact moment in time, it doesn't last for any duration of time (time in terms of game events, of course). But events such as reveal, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, take 0 time. So after the reveal, you pick up exactly where you left off. It is still "when your opponent plays an attack" because no time has passed. I'm not sure why "when you gain a card" would be different.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2011, 11:25:14 am »
0

AFAIK one may play Watchtower and Trader to the same event, e.g. when gaining a curse  changing it in silver and then putting it on deck.

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AJD

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2011, 11:35:14 am »
0

AFAIK one may play Watchtower and Trader to the same event, e.g. when gaining a curse  changing it in silver and then putting it on deck.

Strictly speaking Watchtower and Trader aren't revealed to the same event: Trader is revealed before you gain a card, and Watchtower is revealed after you gain it.
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Dominionaer

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2011, 12:32:04 pm »
0

D'accord. And in reversed order Trader would be to late!


event
 
reaction card
multiple
show
multiple
useful
attack played Horse Trader no  
attack played Moat yes no
attack played Secret Chamber yes yes
before gaining card Trader yes no
after gaining card Watchtower no  
Province gained Fool's Gold no  
discard Tunnel no  
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GendoIkari

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Re: Reactions are confusing, man
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 02:01:53 pm »
0

I have a feeling that for Watchtower, you should be allowed to reveal it multiple times, according to the rules, for the same reason as the Moat and Secret Chamber. The reveal came from your hand and went back into your hand, so your opponent wouldn't be able to tell if you had another Watchtower to reveal, as opposed to revealing the same one multiple times.

Of course, doing that would be in the "not useful" category, at least right now. But there could easily be a reaction card later that's "when you trash a card, you may reveal this from your hand..." In that case, it would be important to know, could I gain a card, then reveal Watchtower to trash it, reveal the new card to do something upon the trashing, and then reveal Watchtower again to put the card on top of my deck? It seems to me that you should be able to do that.
Donald, can we get a ruling on this? I know that it doesn't actually make a difference currently (other than letting you trash a card, and then quickly change your mind and top-deck it instead... something that would protect against misclicks in ISO, but nothing else), but it would be nice to know for a good understanding of the rules in play. Could I trash a card, and then reveal the same Watchtower again, and top-deck it? What about 2 different Watchtowers?
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