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Author Topic: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack  (Read 4448 times)

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NoMoreFun

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How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« on: January 21, 2014, 02:56:48 pm »
0

A rabble chain can leave the opponent with a "2 card" hand that they have no control over, and there's the pins (which are either way too hard to pull off or definitely too strong).

I'm wondering in the context of this idea:

Midas
Action/Attack - $5
Each player (including you) gains a Gold
Each other player discards his hand and puts the gained Gold into his hand.

Having enough money to buy a Silver in addition to the free Gold isn't too shabby, but the attack is brutal late game.


Nothing to see here, just a terrible card.

Another card where this comes into consideration:

Realtor
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each player (including you) gains a Copper. Put the gained Copper into your hand. Each other player puts the gained Copper on top of his deck.

It's all about location, location, location

Now if you stack these, the other player, has $5 to spend next turn without other attacks. That's not all that bad a turn. With a Cutpurse stack you can pin, but below $3 is still going to be quite difficult.

Edit: Put Midas in its place.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 03:40:53 pm by NoMoreFun »
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SirPeebles

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 03:00:07 pm »
+1

Midas
Action/Attack - $5
Each player (including you) gains a Gold
Each other player discards his hand and puts the gained Gold into his hand.

That's cruel.  Discarding their hand after gaining the Gold causes Midas to lose track of the Gold, so they are unable to put it into their hand.  :(
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 03:03:47 pm »
+2

KC-Scheme-Midas is a pin, and relatively easy to set up.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 03:08:03 pm »
0

Midas
Action/Attack - $5
Each player (including you) gains a Gold
Each other player discards his hand and puts the gained Gold into his hand.

That's cruel.  Discarding their hand after gaining the Gold causes Midas to lose track of the Gold, so they are unable to put it into their hand.  :(

This wording looked the least clunky. Can you get an accurate wording in 2 lines?
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eHalcyon

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 03:09:22 pm »
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Straight up spamming Realtor is a pin too.  Yeah $5 is OK, but you can never buy a Province again.  They're too easy to set up since they are cantrips.  Even if you can't play them every turn, the other players' decks will be so full of Copper that they won't be able to do much anyway.  Better hope there are Gardens.
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heron

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 03:14:41 pm »
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I think Midas is way too strong. If there's decent trashing, the game will be quite boring for all but one of the players.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 03:15:12 pm »
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KC-Scheme-Midas is a pin, and relatively easy to set up.

You are guaranteed $3 every turn though, which means you can buy Estates  (unless the Golds run out; perhaps an "if they did" clause is necessary, which would stop the pin)

What would define a pin with this type of card though? How much would a player need to be able to buy to make it fair? $3 means the player being pinned is guaranteed to be able to end the game, but it makes it very difficult to beat the pinning player if they're ahead.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 03:15:34 pm »
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Straight up spamming Realtor is a pin too.  Yeah $5 is OK, but you can never buy a Province again.  They're too easy to set up since they are cantrips.  Even if you can't play them every turn, the other players' decks will be so full of Copper that they won't be able to do much anyway.  Better hope there are Gardens.

Your deck is full of Copper too.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 03:18:45 pm »
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I think Midas is way too strong. If there's decent trashing, the game will be quite boring for all but one of the players.

KC/Scheme/Midas is a problem, and you're probably right, although the fact that the Midas player is gaining golds as well makes it increasingly more difficult to reliably play one every turn.
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SirPeebles

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 03:20:37 pm »
+1

Midas
Action/Attack - $5
Each player (including you) gains a Gold
Each other player discards his hand and puts the gained Gold into his hand.

That's cruel.  Discarding their hand after gaining the Gold causes Midas to lose track of the Gold, so they are unable to put it into their hand.  :(

This wording looked the least clunky. Can you get an accurate wording in 2 lines?

Gain a Gold.  Each other player discards his hand and gains a Gold, putting it into his hand.
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SirPeebles

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 03:23:49 pm »
0

I think Midas is way too strong. If there's decent trashing, the game will be quite boring for all but one of the players.

KC/Scheme/Midas is a problem, and you're probably right, although the fact that the Midas player is gaining golds as well makes it increasingly more difficult to reliably play one every turn.

Scheme!
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 03:25:32 pm »
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KC-Scheme-Midas is a pin, and relatively easy to set up.

You are guaranteed $3 every turn though, which means you can buy Estates  (unless the Golds run out; perhaps an "if they did" clause is necessary, which would stop the pin)

What would define a pin with this type of card though? How much would a player need to be able to buy to make it fair? $3 means the player being pinned is guaranteed to be able to end the game, but it makes it very difficult to beat the pinning player if they're ahead.

I think most official cards try to make it always possible to eventually get Provinces.  Even if you always have a 3-card hand, you can always have 3 Coppers to get Silvers, then later in the game 3 Silvers to get Golds, then 3 Golds (or 2 Golds and 1 Silver) to get Province.  Almost all attacks cut it at 3 cards; Rabble, Cutpurse, and Bureaucrat are exceptions, but you need to play multiple of them (usually 3 or more) for them to be effective, and usually by the time you can build a deck that plays that many terminals every turn, there was something better you could have done in that time.

The thing that makes KC-Scheme-Midas so brutal is that it's not out of your way at all to do it (just throw a Midas into a KC-Scheme deck), and each turn you can still play a pretty normal hand after playing Midas.
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SirPeebles

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 03:28:18 pm »
+3

KC-Scheme-Midas is a pin, and relatively easy to set up.

You are guaranteed $3 every turn though, which means you can buy Estates  (unless the Golds run out; perhaps an "if they did" clause is necessary, which would stop the pin)

What would define a pin with this type of card though? How much would a player need to be able to buy to make it fair? $3 means the player being pinned is guaranteed to be able to end the game, but it makes it very difficult to beat the pinning player if they're ahead.

Frankly, the buying power doesn't matter.  I don't want to play Dominion if I just have a flat $3 to spend every hand.  That would suck.  I mean, wtf?
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LastFootnote

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 03:28:32 pm »
+4

It doesn't matter how strong or weak Midas is because it always makes the game boring for all other players, which is the worst possible thing a card can do. If a player gets one of these played against him every turn, he is effectively no longer playing. Even if the card gained 5 Golds into each other player's hand, it would still be a terrible card concept.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 03:34:32 pm »
0

Ok, Midas is definitely a terrible idea. I have been convinced.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 03:36:48 pm by NoMoreFun »
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eHalcyon

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 03:37:50 pm »
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Straight up spamming Realtor is a pin too.  Yeah $5 is OK, but you can never buy a Province again.  They're too easy to set up since they are cantrips.  Even if you can't play them every turn, the other players' decks will be so full of Copper that they won't be able to do much anyway.  Better hope there are Gardens.

Your deck is full of Copper too.

Mm, fair point.  Still doesn't sit well with me though.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2014, 03:39:50 pm »
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The "discard down to 2, then draw a card" of Beta-Margrave was considered too brutal, so I assume anything stronger than Militia would be too hard on a hand? Minion's brutal when it undermines setup work in a way that reverse Margrave doesn't though, but I've never felt that card was too strong.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2014, 03:42:32 pm »
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Straight up spamming Realtor is a pin too.  Yeah $5 is OK, but you can never buy a Province again.  They're too easy to set up since they are cantrips.  Even if you can't play them every turn, the other players' decks will be so full of Copper that they won't be able to do much anyway.  Better hope there are Gardens.

Your deck is full of Copper too.

Mm, fair point.  Still doesn't sit well with me though.

(off topic) What about if the Copper wasn't topdecked, just gained? Everyone's getting junked the same amount.
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eHalcyon

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 03:52:32 pm »
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Straight up spamming Realtor is a pin too.  Yeah $5 is OK, but you can never buy a Province again.  They're too easy to set up since they are cantrips.  Even if you can't play them every turn, the other players' decks will be so full of Copper that they won't be able to do much anyway.  Better hope there are Gardens.

Your deck is full of Copper too.

Mm, fair point.  Still doesn't sit well with me though.

(off topic) What about if the Copper wasn't topdecked, just gained? Everyone's getting junked the same amount.

I think that would be more reasonable from a balance standpoint, though I would then wonder if the mechanic is really all that interesting.  In most cases, you are just playing a Peddler that makes every deck a little worse.  It's pretty weak as an attack since it hurts you just as much, and it overall makes the game less fun because it forces everybody into a bit of a slog.  Although I'm sure that some people enjoy slogs.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2014, 04:00:43 pm »
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Straight up spamming Realtor is a pin too.  Yeah $5 is OK, but you can never buy a Province again.  They're too easy to set up since they are cantrips.  Even if you can't play them every turn, the other players' decks will be so full of Copper that they won't be able to do much anyway.  Better hope there are Gardens.

Your deck is full of Copper too.

Mm, fair point.  Still doesn't sit well with me though.

(off topic) What about if the Copper wasn't topdecked, just gained? Everyone's getting junked the same amount.

I think that would be more reasonable from a balance standpoint, though I would then wonder if the mechanic is really all that interesting.  In most cases, you are just playing a Peddler that makes every deck a little worse.  It's pretty weak as an attack since it hurts you just as much, and it overall makes the game less fun because it forces everybody into a bit of a slog.  Although I'm sure that some people enjoy slogs.

The idea would be that you're inducing slog conditions, and if you're better prepared to deal with it then you'll come out on top.

Of course it's just one of three options on the Philanthropist card that I've posted everywhere (the other options are a silver wash where you topdeck, and a gold wash where you bottom deck)
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NoMoreFun

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2014, 09:12:04 am »
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Interestingly, if Midas had a "or gain a curse" option (and cost 6 not to be strictly better than soothsayer), it would be strategically better to take the gold+hand  more often than not.The game would be boring, but it's your fault for not taking the curse.

I guess the question is, if you have the option of a an interesting game, but play a boring strategy because it has more chance of winning, should you be annoyed, and at whom? I didn't like dominion much during my Big Money +X always wins phase.
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LastFootnote

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2014, 09:47:26 am »
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Interestingly, if Midas had a "or gain a curse" option (and cost 6 not to be strictly better than soothsayer), it would be strategically better to take the gold+hand  more often than not.

I doubt this is actually true.
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GendoIkari

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2014, 10:00:18 am »
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KC-Scheme-Midas is a pin, and relatively easy to set up.

You are guaranteed $3 every turn though, which means you can buy Estates  (unless the Golds run out; perhaps an "if they did" clause is necessary, which would stop the pin)

What would define a pin with this type of card though? How much would a player need to be able to buy to make it fair? $3 means the player being pinned is guaranteed to be able to end the game, but it makes it very difficult to beat the pinning player if they're ahead.

Frankly, the buying power doesn't matter.  I don't want to play Dominion if I just have a flat $3 to spend every hand.  That would suck.  I mean, wtf?

This. Even if the card made you discard your hand and 2 or 3 Golds in your hand instead, it just makes for a boring game with nothing fun to do for the player being pinned.
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Warfreak2

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2014, 02:51:50 pm »
+1

Interestingly, if Midas had a "or gain a curse" option (and cost 6 not to be strictly better than soothsayer), it would be strategically better to take the gold+hand  more often than not.

I doubt this is actually true.
Really? Often, buying a Gold was what you were going to do with your turn anyway.
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SirPeebles

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Re: How bad is too bad for a hand to be made by an attack
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2014, 09:07:30 pm »
+1

Interestingly, if Midas had a "or gain a curse" option (and cost 6 not to be strictly better than soothsayer), it would be strategically better to take the gold+hand  more often than not.

I doubt this is actually true.
Really? Often, buying a Gold was what you were going to do with your turn anyway.

Sure, sometimes you would want to take the Gold rather than Curse, perhaps especially early on.  But I suspect many opponents would go for an engine to play Midas every turn, and then pretty quickly you need to just swallow the Curses and do your best to fight back.  It's like facing a Torturer chain.
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