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Author Topic: An Alt-VP card Idea  (Read 3030 times)

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manthos88

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An Alt-VP card Idea
« on: January 21, 2014, 07:19:19 am »
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Platoons

Cost: $6 (Type: Victory)

Worth (1) VP for every 5 different cards in your Deck that have the same name.



 ------


Explanation:

If you have 5 Coppers, it's worth 1 VP.
If you have 10 Coppers, it's worth 2 VPs.
If you have 10 Coppers and 5 Silvers, it's worth 3 VPs.
If you have 10 Coppers, 10 Silvers and 10 Villages, it's worth 6 VPs.



I think $6 is the appropriate price. I couldn't have it cost less, because you could easily buy it just by stacking lots of Coppers and Silvers and rack up tons of points. At this price, at least, you 'll have to build a more decent economy in order to make it work. You can still stack lots of Coppers an Silvers, but when you start greening it will be harder to hit $6.


I think it's an interesting Alt-VP idea, because it contains elements from other existing Alt-VP concepts and also gives some new interesting ones.

Every card on the board can be worth VPs. You can add in Coppers, Silvers, various spammable Action cards of any cost; Gold gainers get an extra credit here; Junking attacks will probably not hurt you as much (which is not true for Looters); and you got another reason to grab some Estates and hunt down the Duchies.

While the "5" number may need a tweak, it happens to be the appropriate number when this Alt-VP card is contested in a 2-player game. Winning the Platoons split (and to lesser extend the Duchy split) is of great importance, as it will let you reach the "5-same-named-cards" threshold. In the same manner, when a Kingdom pile is contested, if none wins the split both players get to reach that threshold, and if someone loses it he gets denied the opportunity to do so.


What actually concerns me, is that this card may be too powerful if left uncontested in a fair amount of cases. I'm not sure about that though.

Anyway, I hope you like the idea.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:12:00 am by manthos88 »
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SirPeebles

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 09:22:11 am »
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I think $6 is too much.  Stuffing your deck with tens of Copper is not all that easy, depending on the kingdom.  I think this would need some play testing to see how it feels.  In a 4 player game, it is rare to get five of one card aside from Coppers and Curses, maybe Silver and Estates.  I feel this would tend to feel like Gardens.
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GendoIkari

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 10:56:46 am »
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It probably plays way too differently in a 2 player game than it does in a 4 player game. In a 2 player game, this can be  worth it on a board with anything like Fool's Gold, Hamlet, Minion, King's Court... heck almost any decent card where you want to win the split anyway. Though even then, it seems like it will be hard to make it worth 4 VP. In a 4 player game, almost all Kingdom cards are no longer options for getting 5 of.
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manthos88

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 11:03:25 am »
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I think $6 is too much.  Stuffing your deck with tens of Copper is not all that easy, depending on the kingdom.  I think this would need some play testing to see how it feels.  In a 4 player game, it is rare to get five of one card aside from Coppers and Curses, maybe Silver and Estates.  I feel this would tend to feel like Gardens.


4-player games are always different cases. And really, it's not that hard to add in lots of Coppers and Silvers. There are a lot of ways to do that. If the Kingdom doesn't offer any of them, then that's probably not a Kingdom you would go for Platoons.

And I don't think this would feel like Gardens at all. Your goal in these 2 cases is totally different. And this is why this card costs $6.
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manthos88

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 11:06:57 am »
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It probably plays way too differently in a 2 player game than it does in a 4 player game. In a 2 player game, this can be  worth it on a board with anything like Fool's Gold, Hamlet, Minion, King's Court... heck almost any decent card where you want to win the split anyway. Though even then, it seems like it will be hard to make it worth 4 VP. In a 4 player game, almost all Kingdom cards are no longer options for getting 5 of.

Yes this is true. But there are always Silvers and Coppers. And maybe Golds as well. But in a 4-p game, you can't go safely for any Alt-VP strategy anyway. The cards you want are SO going to get stolen!
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LastFootnote

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 11:17:18 am »
+3

I think $6 is too much.  Stuffing your deck with tens of Copper is not all that easy, depending on the kingdom.  I think this would need some play testing to see how it feels.  In a 4 player game, it is rare to get five of one card aside from Coppers and Curses, maybe Silver and Estates.  I feel this would tend to feel like Gardens.


4-player games are always different cases. And really, it's not that hard to add in lots of Coppers and Silvers. There are a lot of ways to do that. If the Kingdom doesn't offer any of them, then that's probably not a Kingdom you would go for Platoons.

And I don't think this would feel like Gardens at all. Your goal in these 2 cases is totally different. And this is why this card costs $6.

They're technically different, but probably not that different in practice. The easiest way to boost Platoons is to buy/gain a ton of Copper, so your Platoons deck is probably going to look very similar to your Gardens deck in most cases.
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manthos88

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 11:26:10 am »
+1

I think $6 is too much.  Stuffing your deck with tens of Copper is not all that easy, depending on the kingdom.  I think this would need some play testing to see how it feels.  In a 4 player game, it is rare to get five of one card aside from Coppers and Curses, maybe Silver and Estates.  I feel this would tend to feel like Gardens.


4-player games are always different cases. And really, it's not that hard to add in lots of Coppers and Silvers. There are a lot of ways to do that. If the Kingdom doesn't offer any of them, then that's probably not a Kingdom you would go for Platoons.

And I don't think this would feel like Gardens at all. Your goal in these 2 cases is totally different. And this is why this card costs $6.

They're technically different, but probably not that different in practice. The easiest way to boost Platoons is to buy/gain a ton of Copper, so your Platoons deck is probably going to look very similar to your Gardens deck in most cases.

Yes, you can do that. But only after Platoons have been piled out. Cause if you start off with clogging Coppers, you may not be able to afford Platoons thereafter. Only Beggar will help you with that.

And would that always be the best option? Or would you want to add-in some Duchies/Estates, or more useful cards (in such numbers that would increase Platoons' VP value) and go for Provinces?
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manthos88

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 11:29:15 am »
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Quote
Though even then, it seems like it will be hard to make it worth 4 VP.

Platoons can go up in VPs very easily. In a non-Shleters game, just add-in 3 Coppers and 2 Estates and they are already worth 3 VPs.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:30:26 am by manthos88 »
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Warfreak2

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 02:12:14 pm »
+1

Simpler wording: "Worth 1VP for each set of 5 matching cards in your deck."
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SirPeebles

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 03:13:34 pm »
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Quote
Though even then, it seems like it will be hard to make it worth 4 VP.

Platoons can go up in VPs very easily. In a non-Shleters game, just add-in 3 Coppers and 2 Estates and they are already worth 3 VPs.

Have you playtested this?  That sounds like a LOT of investment towards junking your own deck to just buy expensive Duchies.  To get beyond Duchy-value, you would need an additional 5 cards of the same name, which probably means even more Copper.  In a deck full of Coppers and green, $6 is very expensive.  Even a jackpot hand of five Coppers can't bring in a Platoons.

I also don't understand your dismissal of how much weaker this card is in 4-player.  Maybe you personally don't play 4-player often, in which case maybe this is a great card for your gaming group.  But in the actual design of Dominion, Donald seemed to care more about 3-player or 4-player games than he did 2-player games.  But again, your fan cards should be what you want.

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eHalcyon

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 03:32:33 pm »
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I've seen someone post a concept very similar to this before.  I'm not sure it works.  In two player, getting the points comes down to winning (or at least not losing) the split.  That's actually a pretty narrow margin that can very easily come down to luck.  It's all or nothing, so the impact is large.  I can spend a significant amount of time getting 4 copies of a card, but if you take the last one before I get the chance then all that work was for naught.  This danger pushes players to play more big money, since you can more safely get your sets of Treasure and Estates.  But alt VP that pushes BM is kind of boring. 

Another thing is that alt VP is usually helpful for engines because it gives engine players an alternate source of VP (a bit of a tautology here but... yeah).  The BM player can drain most of the Provinces but the engine player can make up the difference with a bunch of Fairgrounds, for example.  But Platoons would generally be just as helpful to the BM player, who has many sets of Copper, Silver, and even Provinces.

My suggestion would be something like:

Garrison
$6 - Victory
Worth 1 VP for every set of 3 action cards with the same name.

Being specific to action cards immediately shifts it away from BM.  Counting sets of 3 makes it less swingy and keeps viable even with 4 players (still weaker though).

This may be too powerful as it is, but keep in mind that it can't count any of your starting cards like Platoons does.  If it is too strong, a possible tweak is to make it cost $7.  Probably a better tweak is to add an Embassy-like on-gain bonus for other players, or maybe a buy restriction like Grand Market has (but not as strong).  Or maybe a Potion cost would be better.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 03:33:42 pm by eHalcyon »
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LastFootnote

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 03:45:55 pm »
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I think the most reasonable way to do this is to not count additional sets of a card after the first set. So:

Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every differently named card you have at least 3 copies of.

Or something like that.
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eHalcyon

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 03:47:35 pm »
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I think the most reasonable way to do this is to not count additional sets of a card after the first set. So:

Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every differently named card you have at least 3 copies of.

Or something like that.

I think I've seen something like that before as well.  Or maybe I'm conflating them all, I don't know.  But yeah, this is also a reasonable starting point for testing.
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Warfreak2

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 05:41:29 pm »
+2

Garrison
$6 - Victory
Worth 1 VP for every set of 3 action cards with the same name.

This may be too powerful as it is,
It's too weak; it's strictly worse than Vineyard, so a Potion cost is not possible. It's probably $4, but besides not needing Potions, it wouldn't really play any differently to Vineyard.
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eHalcyon

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 05:43:52 pm »
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Garrison
$6 - Victory
Worth 1 VP for every set of 3 action cards with the same name.

This may be too powerful as it is,
It's too weak; it's strictly worse than Vineyard, so a Potion cost is not possible. It's probably $4, but besides not needing Potions, it wouldn't really play any differently to Vineyard.

Mm, you're right.  Ah, just spitballing here.
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manthos88

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 06:48:19 am »
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Quote
Have you playtested this?
Quote
I also don't understand your dismissal of how much weaker this card is in 4-player.

Unfortunately, me and my friends have stopped playing Dominion. My group likes to less competitive games and we have given up on this game. But, since i like competitive play, i keep playing Dominion almost exclusively on Goko, where most games i play are 2-player games. And this is probably why i don't keep in mind the possible effect a card i create may have on in a more-than-2-player game.

But, i generally like creating my own stuff, so i just keep throwing down various ideas that come into mind.
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Abel_K

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2014, 03:10:35 pm »
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I come back on this "old" topic. The fact is that i'm interested by lots of propositions of fan card, and that I try regularly the ones I like the more.
So I read (between others) the discussion on Platoons. I thought, me too, that 6$ was too much for "5 identical cards"; and that three only (last proposition) was too "cool".So I tried things and now I've a card that keeps the idea, like that :

Forest. Action Victory.  Cost 5$.
+ 1 Buy.
Worth 1VP for each set of identical : 5 Victory, 5 Treasures or 4 Actions ;
I tried it several timezs and had fun with it. It's rather balanced, and one must be careful to make it efficient.

(But perhaps I'm wrong : I am rather new in Dominion Strategy...)



« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 03:17:01 pm by Abel_K »
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Grujah

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Re: An Alt-VP card Idea
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2014, 03:30:27 pm »
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It probably plays way too differently in a 2 player game than it does in a 4 player game. In a 2 player game, this can be  worth it on a board with anything like Fool's Gold, Hamlet, Minion, King's Court... heck almost any decent card where you want to win the split anyway. Though even then, it seems like it will be hard to make it worth 4 VP. In a 4 player game, almost all Kingdom cards are no longer options for getting 5 of.

So make it cost X - (number of players) :P
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