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Author Topic: Other types of attack?  (Read 9980 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Other types of attack?
« on: January 21, 2014, 01:26:43 am »
0

There are four common types of attack in Dominion:

1: Mess with their hand (discarder)
2: Mess with their deck (mucker)
3: Destroy their good cards (trasher)
4: Give them bad cards (junker)

Are there any other possible types?

I've seen "Each other player reveals his hand", which is very weak, but could be important in some kingdoms
I've seen "Each other player loses a Coin token/VP token", which is something different, but probably too situational
I've seen durations that stay in play while increasing the price of all cards.
Maybe there's something to be said for the "slowing down" effect of Ghost Ship and Bureaucrat beyond other what other deck muckers (eg Rabble) do, since generally having fewer reshuffles is bad early and mid game. I suppose it's just a variant of "you need more time to get to your good cards", but there's a definite feeling when it takes forever to finally get to use a good card you gained (which happens for both Ghost Ship and Rabble).

There's definitely innovation to be done with combining two or more types in an intuitive and interesting way (eg Swindler).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 01:41:59 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 01:44:05 am »
+1

Another way to look at attacks is what's negated by attacks

Knights negate the effort you put into getting that nice card
Cutpurse negates your plans of buying the card you had your eye on
Minion can negate the effort you put into setting up a nice hand
Cultist negates your plans to thin out your deck

So what other things can be negated?
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Tables

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 08:37:37 am »
+8

Another way to look at attacks is what's negated by attacks

Knights negate the effort you put into getting that nice card
Cutpurse negates your plans of buying the card you had your eye on
Minion can negate the effort you put into setting up a nice hand
Cultist negates your plans to thin out your deck

So what other things can be negated?

Mass Spy negates everyone's ability to have fun?
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Davio

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 08:53:04 am »
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We can mess with players' points without messing up their decks, just use negative VP-tokens.

An attack like that may seem pretty weak, but Curses can be removed from a deck by trashing, while these tokens stay. So overall the attack may be as strong/weak as regular Cursing. I think it's a tad weaker, because in no way do VP tokens mess with an opponent's deck.

Example:

Charlatan - $4
+1 Card
+$1
+1 Buy

Each other player gains a -VP token.


Torturer is interesting in that it lets the opponent choose his punishment. Maybe you can do something with that.

Example:

Groundskeeper - $5
+$2

Each opponent gains a Copper and an Estate, putting them on top of their deck or reveals the top 2 cards of their deck and trashes one that you choose.
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Awaclus

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 09:03:06 am »
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Durations that give -buys and -actions to the opponents, along with some benefits to balance them.

For example:

$5 Action - Attack - Duration
+$2
________
At the start of each of your opponents' next turns: he gets -1 action and +4 cards

This particular example might be too strong or too weak, but the point is that it's doable if you really want. Of course, the interaction of an Attack - Duration and Moat or Lighthouse would require an explanation.

@-VP tokens: handing out a -VP token is no different from taking a +VP token.
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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 09:07:22 am »
0

Another way to look at attacks is what's negated by attacks

Knights negate the effort you put into getting that nice card
Cutpurse negates your plans of buying the card you had your eye on
Minion can negate the effort you put into setting up a nice hand
Cultist negates your plans to thin out your deck

So what other things can be negated?

Swindler negates the plan you had to build your deck
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Awaclus

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 09:35:44 am »
0

Another way to look at attacks is what's negated by attacks

Knights negate the effort you put into getting that nice card
Cutpurse negates your plans of buying the card you had your eye on
Minion can negate the effort you put into setting up a nice hand
Cultist negates your plans to thin out your deck

So what other things can be negated?

Swindler negates the plan you had to build your deck
Goons negates the plan you had to win the game.
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meandering mercury

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 10:59:51 am »
+4

We can mess with players' points without messing up their decks, just use negative VP-tokens.

An attack like that may seem pretty weak, but Curses can be removed from a deck by trashing, while these tokens stay. So overall the attack may be as strong/weak as regular Cursing. I think it's a tad weaker, because in no way do VP tokens mess with an opponent's deck.

From the standpoint of winning or losing, making everyone else take a -VP token is equivalent to you alone taking a +VP token. Either way, you end up one point ahead of everyone else.
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Voltaire

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 11:00:55 am »
+2

We can mess with players' points without messing up their decks, just use negative VP-tokens.

An attack like that may seem pretty weak, but Curses can be removed from a deck by trashing, while these tokens stay. So overall the attack may be as strong/weak as regular Cursing. I think it's a tad weaker, because in no way do VP tokens mess with an opponent's deck.

From the standpoint of winning or losing, making everyone else take a -VP token is equivalent to you alone taking a +VP token. Either way, you end up one point ahead of everyone else.

Not with multi-player and things like Moat for a few players to stop the attack.

It is a fair point, though. Maybe there's a way to blend them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 11:02:34 am »
0

I've seen "Each other player reveals his hand", which is very weak, but could be important in some kingdoms

If a card were made an attack because of this effect, I would disagree with that. Looking at your opponents hands could help you make better decisions on your turn, but it in no way slows down or harms your opponents' turns.

Anyway, "cards cost $1 more until your next turn" seems like a good effect if the wording can be figured out correctly. Similarly, you could have "no more than 1 card can be bought per turn until your next turn" or "VP cards cannot be gained until your next turn."
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:04:50 am by GendoIkari »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 11:16:06 am »
+1

What about something weird, like:

Set opponent's draw deck aside.  At the beginning of your next turn, shuffle the set aside deck into their current deck.*

(This would be for a two-player game, not sure what 3+ would look like.)  Then their deck becomes their hand and discard pile.  If you're good at tracking their deck it could be good, but if you play it randomly you're just as likely to have good cards in the deck as bad cards.  And it in some sense promotes deck shuffling for them, so you have to play it strategically.  They also have to take some care to the state of their shuffles on the turn where they're without their regular draw deck, so that they can get the best cards when they get it back.

Of course playing this card every turn might be a little unbalanced.  Maybe it needs a way to ensure they get a regular turn between them.

*Or perhaps place it underneath, or discard it.

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ftl

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 11:26:35 am »
0

Anyway, "cards cost $1 more until your next turn" seems like a good effect if the wording can be figured out correctly.

If I remember my Secret Histories correctly, that was the original wording of Cutpurse.

Quote
Similarly, you could have "no more than 1 card can be bought per turn until your next turn" or "VP cards cannot be gained until your next turn."

A key point would be rephrasing these so that instead of saying "You can't do X", it says "if you do X, something happens".

 Since many cards in Dominion say "gain a card", something that says "VP cards cannot be gained" could result in a contradiction - one card says you cannot do something, the other one says you must do that thing. Dominion does not have a resolution mechanism for that.

"VP cards cannot be gained until your next turn" doesn't seem like a good idea anyway because it could result in an infinite game, if both players have engines that draw their whole deck and play one of those each turn.
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Asper

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 12:32:50 pm »
+2

Anyway, "cards cost $1 more until your next turn" seems like a good effect if the wording can be figured out correctly.

If I remember my Secret Histories correctly, that was the original wording of Cutpurse.

There are quite some interesting duration concepts in Dominion that were solved without a Duration type. I was baffled when i was told that Treasury is a Copper that stays in play until you buy a Victory card. Bureacrat is a Militia that "makes you discard" a card next turn if discarding one this turn wouldn't have harmed you. Cutpurse makes you lose 1$. Sea Hag is a Curser that makes you discard a card next turn. Ghost Ship is a Militia that lets you draw a card less next turn per junk card discarded.
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Marcory

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 02:02:31 pm »
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Instead of 'vp cannot be gained next turn,' you could have, 'each other player draws and sets aside the top card of his deck. While that card is set aside, when he would gain a Victory card, he gains X instead. During his cleanup phase, he discards the set-aside card.'

X could be a curse or estate or something else.

The set-aside mechanism helps keep track of this effect in multi-player games.

I'm not sure that this attack would be worth buying, though--because gaining VP cards is almost always optional (edge cases for Swindler, Golem+Baron/Remake/Rebuild, or forced trashing of Hunting Grounds). At worse the opponent just buys a gold/silver instead of Province/Duchy--so not much of an attack unless you can play it every turn--but if you can play a given action every turn, you probably have better actions to choose from than this.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 02:41:15 pm by Marcory »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 02:23:15 pm »
0

How could it not be worth buying? It literally bans your opponent from winning. Even if I can't draw my deck to play one every turn, I could just buy all 10.
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Marcory

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 02:39:12 pm »
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It might be worth buying, but as written, Throne Room-type cards don't work on it, and you can't usefully play more than one per turn. So when these collide, they're dead, even if you have villages. With 10 of these, your deck will get horribly clogged with dead cards. Meantime, your opponent will just buy duchies when he can and then pile out to win. Also, it is of course useless against vp-token cards.

This card would be game-breaking in multiplayer though. If you change it to 'the player on your left/right', then it becomes extremely political.

So this card is either way too good or really bad, with not much in between. That's why I downplayed it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 02:46:46 pm by Marcory »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2014, 03:06:29 pm »
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Idea:

Everyone gains a decent card (eg a Silver)
You put it in your hand. Everyone else puts it on the top of/bottom of/anywhere in his deck.

You haven't really hurt their deck, since the effect on decks is a wash in the long run and in the short term the deck hasn't really been made worse. You've just slowed them down.
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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2014, 03:12:40 pm »
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It might be worth buying, but as written, Throne Room-type cards don't work on it, and you can't usefully play more than one per turn. So when these collide, they're dead, even if you have villages. With 10 of these, your deck will get horribly clogged with dead cards. Meantime, your opponent will just buy duchies when he can and then pile out to win. Also, it is of course useless against vp-token cards.

This card would be game-breaking in multiplayer though. If you change it to 'the player on your left/right', then it becomes extremely political.

So this card is either way too good or really bad, with not much in between. That's why I downplayed it.

You say that the other player will buy Duchies when possible... but what if it's never possible?  You can be blocked every turn from getting VP.  That's what Warfreak is saying.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 03:54:30 pm »
0

Quote
Ransom
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $?
{Vanilla bonuses} Each other player reveals cards from the top of his deck until he reveals a Treasure or Action costing $2 or more. He sets it aside and discards the rest.

In games using this, at the end of a player's Buy phase he may pay any number of Coins. For each $2 payed, he returns a set-aside card to his discard pile.

Shouldn't this thread be in the Variants forum?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2014, 04:03:56 pm »
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Quote
Ransom
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $?
{Vanilla bonuses} Each other player reveals cards from the top of his deck until he reveals a Treasure or Action costing $2 or more. He sets it aside and discards the rest.

In games using this, at the end of a player's Buy phase he may pay any number of Coins. For each $2 payed, he returns a set-aside card to his discard pile.

Shouldn't this thread be in the Variants forum?

I actually did mean to when I made the topic. I'll leave it to the mods to decide.
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Marcory

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2014, 04:35:40 pm »
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This card would need to be priced at $5 or $6, so that it can't be spammed with Workshops. If you're going to buy 10 of them, then the other player has a decent shot of buying 5 duchies--for the win--while you're buying cards that don't help yourself at all. In the meantime, how are you going to regularly get to $5 if you are frequently drawing one or more of these cards dead? It's hard enough to get 5 Labs or Wharves--and those are cards that help you get to $5 to get more of them--but this card hinders you from getting to $5.

If you build an engine that can play one of these cards every turn, then yes, you can guarantee your win--just like you can guarantee a win with a Goons/Masquerade/King's Court pin or almost guarantee it with a Golden Deck (or its Platinum variant). But building such an engine takes a long time--in the meantime, your opponent can be buying reactions (Moat/Lighthouse), or VP chip cards, or Duchies to go for a three pile win, or some other exotic strategy (or he can just go for 3-4 of these, enough to keep you from playing one every turn.)

Remember that on the turns he can't buy VP, he'll be able to buy Gold or good engine parts instead--so when he does have a chance to buy VP, he'll be able to buy a lot of them.
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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2014, 10:55:36 pm »
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It's pretty easy to build an engine to draw your whole deck and play one particular card each turn. The pin would not be not a rare case at all, it would be fairly common if that card existed.

Engines *already* are pretty powerful; even if the attack you're playing every turn is Militia, it's often worthwhile to build an engine that will play it every turn. This would be oodles worse.
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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2014, 11:44:00 pm »
+1

It's pretty easy to build an engine to draw your whole deck and play one particular card each turn. The pin would not be not a rare case at all, it would be fairly common if that card existed.

Engines *already* are pretty powerful; even if the attack you're playing every turn is Militia, it's often worthwhile to build an engine that will play it every turn. This would be oodles worse.
Exactly. You only need 1 of the card to lock your opponent out of VP until you're ready to massively green...except you won't be able to if your opponent also blocks you from gaining VP with an engine of their own. Don't think every game is going to have Moat or Lighthouse a VP-token card. That's 5 kingdom cards out of about 200.

Instead of 'vp cannot be gained next turn,' you could have, 'each other player draws and sets aside the top card of his deck. While that card is set aside, when he would gain a Victory card, he gains X instead. During his cleanup phase, he discards the set-aside card.'

X could be a curse or estate or something else.

The set-aside mechanism helps keep track of this effect in multi-player games.

I'm not sure that this attack would be worth buying, though--because gaining VP cards is almost always optional (edge cases for Swindler, Golem+Baron/Remake/Rebuild, or forced trashing of Hunting Grounds). At worse the opponent just buys a gold/silver instead of Province/Duchy--so not much of an attack unless you can play it every turn--but if you can play a given action every turn, you probably have better actions to choose from than this.
Here's something interesting, but it has the problem referred to above. It did inspire me to suggest something like this:

"Each other player reveals and sets aside the top card of their deck. While a card is set aside this way, when he gains a Victory card, he puts the set aside card into his discard pile."

Maybe insert a sentence at the end stating what happens to the set aside cards at the end of the game, but maybe the card is too wordy the way it's written.

This forces your opponents to put stuff away onto a Native Village mat of sorts, but they can only get the cards back by greening, perhaps prematurely. A good way to punish a player that trashed down too heavily.
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DG

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 01:21:36 am »
0

Attack-duration cards cannot work as they conflict with reaction cards. Even if reaction cards are revealed when the attack is played there are still dubious rulings on outpost turns and possession turns.

Is it an original attacks to force an opponent to set aside some cards from their deck/discard/hand until their next shuffle, after which the cards are put into the discard pile?. Another new attack may be to win the game if a condition is met, such as every opponent having a specific card in hand (although that would be a luck driven attack).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 01:23:46 am by DG »
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Davio

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Re: Other types of attack?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 02:18:55 am »
0

We can mess with players' points without messing up their decks, just use negative VP-tokens.

An attack like that may seem pretty weak, but Curses can be removed from a deck by trashing, while these tokens stay. So overall the attack may be as strong/weak as regular Cursing. I think it's a tad weaker, because in no way do VP tokens mess with an opponent's deck.

From the standpoint of winning or losing, making everyone else take a -VP token is equivalent to you alone taking a +VP token. Either way, you end up one point ahead of everyone else.

Not with multi-player and things like Moat for a few players to stop the attack.

It is a fair point, though. Maybe there's a way to blend them.
Well, they're not strictly equal.

As mentioned, attacks can be blocked. Also, the -VP token supply would be limited to the number of Curses, unlike the regular VP tokens, for which you can get substitutes once you run out of tokens.
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