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Author Topic: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin  (Read 4152 times)

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GendoIkari

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+1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« on: November 21, 2011, 10:28:13 am »
0

There are now a fairly large number of cards that give this particular combination, but none that do exactly only that. It seems clear that a card could exist like that, in theory, but it probably won't just because it would be too bland, or too similar to other cards. Anyway, such a card would have to cost $4, because we already have so many other cards to compare it to:

  • Oasis: $3, with the drawback of discarding a card.
  • Market: $5, with a +buy.
  • Highway: $5, with the benefit of being worth more when you buy more. Also benefit for things like Remodel/Ironworks/etc.
  • Treasury: $5, with the benefit of putting back on top of your deck if you didn't buy a victory card.
  • Peddler: Variable cost, usually purchased for less than 4 actually. Extra benefit for trash-for-benefits.
  • Tournament: $4, you only get the full benefit sometimes (every time early in the game). Also benefit of gaining prizes.
  • Cities: $5, only level 3 Cities give you that full benefit, and they give you much more, too.
  • Bazaar (Thanks rinkworks): $5, gives an extra action also.
  • Grand Market: $6, gives an extra buy and an extra coin; cost is more than 6 in terms of ease of purchase.
  • Conspirator (Thanks rinkworks): $4, only gives the full bonus after 2 other actions, but the bonus gives an extra coin.

Am I missing any? Any thoughts about the theoretical $4 cantrip +1 coin card? Would it be a good purchase if it were available? Anyway, I just happened to notice that there's quite a few cards that give this same benefit now; thought it was interesting.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 12:01:23 pm by GendoIkari »
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DStu

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2011, 10:55:23 am »
+1

I think it would be a good buy at $4. First, there are not many Cantrips at $4, so there's not much competition after you bought your second Militia. Compared to Silver +1Action/Card/Coin has an higher average value when the rest of your deck averages $1, which happens after you bough 3 Silver. Third, a deck with +1+1+1 is faster than with Silver, so playing important cards like attacks more often. Fourth there are many combos where you would like to have virtual money over real one (Minion, Tactician, Menangerie/Hunting Party with the right deck, TR/KC, Pirate Ship/Thief/NB). Of course there are also decks where you want real money, but you can't be good every time.

But I also think it would be to boring.
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rinkworks

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2011, 11:01:33 am »
+2

I've thought a bit about this too and agree that $4 is absolutely the correct cost for it.  However, Donald has said there will never be such a card, not necessarily because it would be boring (which it would) but because it would limit how variants of the card could be priced.  See "The Vanilla Card Problem" section of this:  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=121.0

Quote
The solution to the vanilla card problem is not to do vanilla cards. If your basic version of a concept includes a bonus, you can vary the bonus and keep the cost the same. Only when you do the bonus-less version are you stuck with increasing the cost. But you can't just not do vanilla cards. You need them for how simple they are. So in the end you pick and choose. For example Dominion does not have a card that just says "+1 Card +1 Action +$1." If I made that card, it would limit what other cards I could make. So instead I just do variations on it.

With the present set of official cards, I don't see a problem with having that card at $4, but we don't know what other official cards are yet to come.  And even if none of those pose a pricing problem for the vanilla version, I can still see how it was smart not to limit future development by creating it.

But yeah, for me the real reason is just that it's boring.  A $4 Peddler would be a no brainer.  There would be no reason not to buy the card, since it can't harm your deck and provides you with money.  The actual Peddler is interesting because of the cost games you can play.  Market and Bazaar (the latter of which you missed in your list) are interesting because you usually need to be able to make use of their extra abilities to justify blowing $5 on them.  Oasis is interesting because you need a certain type of deck to reliably get the benefit out of it.  And so on.

A $4 vanilla version would not only lack these interesting gameplay dynamics but actually detract from the gameplay dynamics of all these different variants, since its presence on the table would provide a complication-less way to reap the same main benefit.

Edit: Grand Market and Conspirator probably belong in your list, too.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 11:13:06 am by rinkworks »
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GendoIkari

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2011, 12:00:31 pm »
0

Already remembered Grand Market, adding Conspirator now, thanks.
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Octo

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2011, 03:38:05 pm »
+2

I'm sure you know this, but, well, cantrips can harm your deck, when you're using dead-drawers (smithy, councilroom). Sure they're generally ace, and it's hardly a massive drawback, but still, with a big drawer like CR it can really piss you off! :) That's something I'm working on at the moment actually, really trying to avoid those clashes with careful card choice.
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Davio

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 06:22:05 am »
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I don't think Highway belongs in the list.

If a card has +$1, that coin can only be spent once.
Highway's $1 discount can be used several times through +Buys and Workshop-like cards.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 06:51:49 am »
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I think Highway fits.
It's effectively +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 per buy you spend (with the added bonus of Workshop shenanigans), which certainly fits into the category of +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 as well as something like Grand Market does.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 10:06:18 am »
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I think Highway fits.
It's effectively +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 per buy you spend (with the added bonus of Workshop shenanigans), which certainly fits into the category of +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1 as well as something like Grand Market does.

Plus, people seem to purchase Highway on boards without +buy (or IW/Workshop/Etc) pretty often. It's still a good card without the extra usages.
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michaeljb

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 11:53:05 am »
+1

It's still a good card without the extra usages.

Well, if no better $5's are available it's alright. It is pretty weak with no +Buy or gainers for a $5-coster. I mean, it becomes strictly inferior to Market, Bazaar, and Treasury.

There are still boards where it ends up being the thing to buy with $5, but that's definitely more a result of a sort of weak board than it is Highway being strong.

edit: FWIW, I do think it does at least deserve a mention on this list.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 12:05:03 pm »
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It's still a good card without the extra usages.

Well, if no better $5's are available it's alright. It is pretty weak with no +Buy or gainers for a $5-coster. I mean, it becomes strictly inferior to Market, Bazaar, and Treasury.

There are still boards where it ends up being the thing to buy with $5, but that's definitely more a result of a sort of weak board than it is Highway being strong.

edit: FWIW, I do think it does at least deserve a mention on this list.

I agree. I almost said something in my post about thinking that perhaps some people overrate it when they but and spam a bunch of them when there's no +buy.
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jimjam

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 02:21:45 pm »
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Venture could be considered similar.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 03:01:13 pm »
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Venture could be considered similar.
I thought about that briefly, but the fact that it's a treasure really changes everything. There are quite a few things that you could do with a hand of 5 "+1 card +1 action +1 $" that you can't do with a handful of Ventures (such as hope to play other actions this turn).
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Octo

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 08:52:53 am »
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I'm just being a bit nitpicky here and it's just not really a heavyweight thread, so pinch of salt etc., but some of those are weird, disjointed comparisons in my opinion, most notably Grand Market and City. Perhaps even Highway and Conspirator. They come from very different angles and I certainly wouldn't considered the first two variations on +1 card, +1 action and +1$. Sure, they contain that bonus, but....I dunno, seems weird.
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Elyv

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 06:42:07 pm »
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Highway is definitely a variant of that hypothetical card. Grand Market, City, and Conspirator not so much, imo.
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DG

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 06:54:18 pm »
+1

Pawn is baby of the family.
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Tydude

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2011, 12:28:03 pm »
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Pawn is baby of the family.

Along with lighthouse.
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snappy

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Re: +1 card, +1 action, +1 coin
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 11:01:28 am »
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I'm just being a bit nitpicky here and it's just not really a heavyweight thread, so pinch of salt etc., but some of those are weird, disjointed comparisons in my opinion, most notably Grand Market and City. Perhaps even Highway and Conspirator. They come from very different angles and I certainly wouldn't considered the first two variations on +1 card, +1 action and +1$. Sure, they contain that bonus, but....I dunno, seems weird.

i'd agree that highway works, and since grand market is basically a more powerful market, and market is obviously in this category, i'd say that works as well. city, not so much ... it's a village. conspirator, i'd lump that with the other +$2 cards ... woodcutter, nomad camp, monument, embargo (?) ...
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