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Author Topic: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't  (Read 50448 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2014, 02:18:33 am »
+1

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.
Because building your deck so that you'll win even with bad draws is a more important skill than memorizing numbers.
First of all: why? who determined that it's "more important?" and secondly: a perfect player always knows exactly which cards are in his deck, drawing pile, and discard pile. Remembering stuff is part of what makes you a good player, whether you like it or not.

I also find counting to be pretty hard, even though that might sound strange. It really requires focus, because in a game where estates are passed around all the time, and everone has huge decks, you have to adapt your numbers constantly, while simultaniously thinking about the game. If you also have to do maths for some of your decisions, one tiny number can easily slip your mind. Winning a game because you counted and your opponent didn't is immensly satisfying, more so than winning cause of... pretty much anything else. I'm so glad you can turn it off.

dondon151

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2014, 02:32:27 am »
0

If you turn off the VP counter, your opponent can just keep track the old-fashioned way. You can't legislate it.
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silverspawn

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #152 on: February 04, 2014, 02:41:07 am »
+2

If you turn off the VP counter, your opponent can just keep track the old-fashioned way. You can't legislate it.

Yeah, and you could also write down everything else, really everything. You could have a physical copy of dominion nearby, and simulate the ongoing game, so that you can always see exactly how many points you have, your opponent has and which cards are left in your drawing pile and discard pile. If you have a nice desk and one of these fancy All-in-one-case thingies, it wouldn't even take that long. But it'd be a monstrous advantage.

So, we just have to hope noone does it, since there's no way to control it. I guess you could also debate whether doing something like that is bm
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 02:51:17 am by silverspawn »
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dondon151

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #153 on: February 04, 2014, 02:50:06 am »
+3

To actually answer your question, the absence of point counters interferes with the players' ability to make maximally informed decisions at every phase of the game. Disabling the point counter would increase the luck element because either player can experience an unfortunate memory lapse or misremember some important detail and end up losing the game because of it.
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Awaclus

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #154 on: February 04, 2014, 02:59:44 am »
0

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.
Because building your deck so that you'll win even with bad draws is a more important skill than memorizing numbers.
First of all: why? who determined that it's "more important?" and secondly: a perfect player always knows exactly which cards are in his deck, drawing pile, and discard pile. Remembering stuff is part of what makes you a good player, whether you like it or not.

I also find counting to be pretty hard, even though that might sound strange. It really requires focus, because in a game where estates are passed around all the time, and everone has huge decks, you have to adapt your numbers constantly, while simultaniously thinking about the game. If you also have to do maths for some of your decisions, one tiny number can easily slip your mind. Winning a game because you counted and your opponent didn't is immensly satisfying, more so than winning cause of... pretty much anything else. I'm so glad you can turn it off.
I keep track of all of the cards that have been bought and trashed because the splits matter, and while I'm doing it for the kingdom cards, I also do it for the victory cards at the same time and I find it pretty easy. It's just very nice that if I happen to forget something, I don't have to guess at random.
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silverspawn

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #155 on: February 04, 2014, 03:01:16 am »
0

Quote
To actually answer your question, the absence of point counters interferes with the players' ability to make maximally informed decisions at every phase of the game. Disabling the point counter would increase the luck element because either player can experience an unfortunate memory lapse or misremember some important detail and end up losing the game because of it.

so in other words: he lost because of missplay. I mean, you could also trash your last +buy due to a memory loss, because you used to have 2 and forgot that you already trashed one of them. The counters don't seem to make sense to me, becaue consequently you could just aswell add a counter for how many villages you have, or how many action cards, or, really, anything, and if you did all of that the game would be really boring. Constraining it to just VPs is arbitrary.

Still, I see what you mean, I was trying to preemptively counter that argument by adding the "who's invested in dominion" dependent clause, assuming that everyone who doesn't just play casually could also manage to count properly. Which, allowedly, isn't entierly true.

but whatever, I don't want to argue about it; if you think it's a good thing, just keep it enabled.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 03:02:29 am by silverspawn »
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yed

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #156 on: February 04, 2014, 06:08:56 am »
+1

about the #vp thing: well, my personal opinion about it is pretty much that vp counters are an incredibly stupid idea, they take skill away from the game, which increases the luck ratio for every specific game, and I'm at a loss to understand why anyone who's invested in dominion would want to have one.
The issue is that Goko shows full log during game. I have preferred VPOFF on Isotropic where only log from last turn was shown. When everyone has full log, I prefer VPON.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 06:11:12 am by yed »
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markusin

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #157 on: February 04, 2014, 08:19:09 am »
+1

Quote
To actually answer your question, the absence of point counters interferes with the players' ability to make maximally informed decisions at every phase of the game. Disabling the point counter would increase the luck element because either player can experience an unfortunate memory lapse or misremember some important detail and end up losing the game because of it.

so in other words: he lost because of missplay. I mean, you could also trash your last +buy due to a memory loss, because you used to have 2 and forgot that you already trashed one of them. The counters don't seem to make sense to me, becaue consequently you could just aswell add a counter for how many villages you have, or how many action cards, or, really, anything, and if you did all of that the game would be really boring. Constraining it to just VPs is arbitrary.
Indeed it is kind of arbitrary. In fact, I believe there was a controversial add-on to Isotropic that did track who owned what. There really would be counters for how many villages you had and how many your opponent had.

With that amount of knowledge, you might as well code a bot to play the match. I actually wanted to suggest that in the variants forum at some point. Each player would look at the board, write a bot for it, and the bots would duke it out for 1000+ matches or until a clear winner was found. Removes the shuffle luck issue too.
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Polk5440

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2014, 10:16:14 am »
+1

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?
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Awaclus

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #159 on: February 04, 2014, 10:18:42 am »
0

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?
silver-spa-wn, perhaps?
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silverspawn

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #160 on: February 04, 2014, 10:57:29 am »
+1

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spawn^^ i had this  name way before dominion

achmed_sender

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #161 on: February 04, 2014, 11:50:02 am »
+2

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spawn^^ i had this  name way before dominion

Wait, there was a time before Dominion :o?
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Awaclus

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #162 on: February 04, 2014, 12:15:32 pm »
+2

How DO you parse your username? silver-spawn or silvers-pawn?

silver-spawn^^ i had this  name way before dominion

Wait, there was a time before Dominion :o?
Yeah, you know, those times when some of us still had lives.
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Kirian

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #163 on: February 04, 2014, 12:51:34 pm »
0

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

I stand corrected; I thought the field length was longer than that; certainly longer than that would fit on the screen.  That's annoying.
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KingZog3

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #164 on: February 04, 2014, 01:08:41 pm »
+3

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

I stand corrected; I thought the field length was longer than that; certainly longer than that would fit on the screen.  That's annoying.

More than 24 characters might crash Goko.
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SirPeebles

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Re: An attempt to determine what kind of behavior is badmanner and what isn't
« Reply #165 on: February 04, 2014, 01:34:32 pm »
+10

There's plenty of space in the title for all the info you need.  "All Sets 5000+ #vpoff streaming" fits easily.

I'm only able to fit 24 characters in the names of my games. How are you able to fit all of that?

I stand corrected; I thought the field length was longer than that; certainly longer than that would fit on the screen.  That's annoying.

More than 24 characters might crash Goko.
They should probably split up your title into 40 different fields of up to 5 characters each.
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