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Author Topic: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards  (Read 5638 times)

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Erokow32

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Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« on: January 15, 2014, 02:04:40 am »
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Let's say my hand is Kings Court, Kings Court, Mining Village, Copper and Silver.  I use my first Kings Court on the second.  So I now have three Kings Courts that need targets.  Obviously the first is Mining Village (which will draw me a card, and give me an action), but I can't target my Copper, nor my Silver with my other two Kings Courts.  Do I lose the other two, or do I play the three Mining Villages before I choose a target for the Kings Courts?

And the other question... let's say I use Kings Court on Mining Village.  Mining Village lets me trash it for $2.  Can I trash it three times for $6?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 02:06:15 am »
+1

Finish resolving the first play of King's Court before moving on to the second.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2014, 02:07:16 am »
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Oh, and you only get $2. You fail at trashing it because it's already in the trash. I think it's the lose-track rule.
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amalloy

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2014, 03:39:22 am »
+4

It's not really the lose-track rule, since a card can't lose track of itself, and it's Mining Village doing the trashing. It's more like:

  • Trash this
  • Okay, I did
  • If you did (yep), +2 coins
  • Trash this
  • I can't, it's already in the trash
  • If you did (nope), +2 coins.
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pedroluchini

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2014, 07:08:21 am »
+5

It's not really the lose-track rule, since a card can't lose track of itself, and it's Mining Village doing the trashing.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, Mining Village can indeed lose track of itself. This is relevant for Possession. If a possessed player Thrones a Mining Village --> the Village trashes itself, is set aside by Possession's effect, and then can't trash itself again because it's no longer in play. So you only get +$2 once.
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Polk5440

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 08:14:31 am »
+2

Let's say my hand is Kings Court, Kings Court, Mining Village, Copper and Silver.  I use my first Kings Court on the second.  So I now have three Kings Courts that need targets.  Obviously the first is Mining Village (which will draw me a card, and give me an action), but I can't target my Copper, nor my Silver with my other two Kings Courts.  Do I lose the other two, or do I play the three Mining Villages before I choose a target for the Kings Courts?

The second thing you said. You choose the targets one at a time and play each target 3 times before choosing the next one. So you play Mining Village 3 times. If you draw another action, you can choose that one to play 3 times. Do that, then you may choose the final target card.

Another example: Your hand is KC, KC, Remodel, Smithy, Smithy. If you play KC-KC and choose Remodel first, then you Remodel three cards from your hand. The first is Smithy. The second is Smithy. The third is nothing (you have no more cards left in your hand). Now you choose the second target for your KC-KC. You have no cards in hand, so you do nothing. (You should have chosen the Smithies first if you want to play them three times.)

Quote
And the other question... let's say I use Kings Court on Mining Village.  Mining Village lets me trash it for $2.  Can I trash it three times for $6?

What amalloy said. You get the money only once.
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qmech

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 02:52:09 pm »
+1

It's not really the lose-track rule, since a card can't lose track of itself, and it's Mining Village doing the trashing. It's more like:

  • Trash this
  • Okay, I did
  • If you did (yep), +2 coins
  • Trash this
  • I can't, it's already in the trash
  • If you did (nope), +2 coins.

I'm not entirely convinced by that explanation.  Why shouldn't you be able to trash it from the trash?

To be clear, I'm not questioning the ruling.  I should perhaps also say that I never bothered to get a firm grip on the lose-track rule.
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KingZog3

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 03:15:59 pm »
+1

It's not really the lose-track rule, since a card can't lose track of itself, and it's Mining Village doing the trashing. It's more like:

  • Trash this
  • Okay, I did
  • If you did (yep), +2 coins
  • Trash this
  • I can't, it's already in the trash
  • If you did (nope), +2 coins.

I'm not entirely convinced by that explanation.  Why shouldn't you be able to trash it from the trash?

To be clear, I'm not questioning the ruling.  I should perhaps also say that I never bothered to get a firm grip on the lose-track rule.

Firstly, everyone likes to mention the lose-track rule, but it essentially never applies, and is only there to clear up some strange interactions, such as Scheme-Hermit.

Simply put, the money from Mining Village only happens when you trash it. Trashing is take something, and moving it to the trash. If it's in the trash you can't move it there because it is already there. So if you move it there, you get the money. Otherwise you don't. Hence KC-Mining Village cannot generate $6.
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rrwoods

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 03:37:53 pm »
+1

Here's how it goes when you throne a mining village and trash it the first time (kings court is similar; using throne because it's simpler) --

Play Throne Room (putting it into play from your hand)
- Play Mining Village (putting it into play from your hand)
-- Draw a card, receive two actions
-- Choose to trash Mining Village
-- Receive two coins (you did trash Mining Village)
- Play Mining Village (you can't put it into play as Throne Room has lost track of it)
-- Draw a card, receive two actions
-- Choose to trash Mining Village
-- Don't receive two coins (you didn't trash Mining Village as it was already there)


tl;dr -- lose track is involved, but it's at the point where you play Mining Village the second time, not at the point where you're given the choice to trash it.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 04:13:32 pm »
+7

The Lose Track Rule for programmers:

If we're thinking of the cards as "little computer programs", then Dominion cards don't have $card->move($target_location) methods, rather, they have $card->move($current_location,$target_location) methods, which, if $card is in $current_location, move it to $target_location and return true, else do nothing and return false. They also don't have $card->get_current_location() methods, so $current_location has to be the place the card is expected to be in.

Examples:

Mining Village's last clause is, "you may { if($this->move($play_area,$trash_pile)) { +$2; } }". Hence, when Mining Village is not in the play area, Lose Track applies, the move() method returns false and therefore you don't get the +$2.

Inn/Watchtower: if you choose to resolve Inn's on-gain effect before Watchtower's reaction effect, then Inn's effect is "you may {$this->move($discard_pile,$deck); } $deck->shuffle();" which succeeds, and then Watchtower's effect is "$inn->move($discard_pile,$deck);" which fails because Inn isn't in the discard pile. If you resolve them in the other order, then Watchtower's effect succeeds, and then Inn's effect fails to move the Inn because it isn't in the discard pile, but then shuffles the deck anyway.
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florrat

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 04:52:15 pm »
+1

I'm not entirely convinced by that explanation.  Why shouldn't you be able to trash it from the trash?

To be clear, I'm not questioning the ruling.  I should perhaps also say that I never bothered to get a firm grip on the lose-track rule.

I'm was also not convinced by the "you can't trash cards in trash"-rule. But Donald X. is pretty clear here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5049430#5049430

Quote from: Donald X.
It's not that you can't trash a card in the trash, it's that "did you trash that" is only answered "yes" if the card moved from elsewhere to the trash. If it was already in the trash, nothing happened.

Edit: So yes, you can't trash a card in the trash. I'm trying to be clear here. You can try to trash a card in the trash, and it will still be in the trash, but did you trash it? You didn't.

Actually I find this ruling unfortunate. Without this ruling, the lose track rule would cover every single case where this rule is needed (AFAIK). Because if some effect trashes a card, then that effect doesn't expect the card to be already in the trash (at least, on any published card, or any reasonable fan card), so according to the lose track rule the trashing will fail. So I don't really see the need of the "you can't trash cards in trash"-rule.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 06:30:14 pm »
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Actually I find this ruling unfortunate. Without this ruling, the lose track rule would cover every single case where this rule is needed (AFAIK). Because if some effect trashes a card, then that effect doesn't expect the card to be already in the trash (at least, on any published card, or any reasonable fan card), so according to the lose track rule the trashing will fail. So I don't really see the need of the "you can't trash cards in trash"-rule.
It isn't a "rule" as such, and DXV even sez so:
Quote
It's not that you can't trash a card in the trash,
His point is the same as yours - because of the Lose Track rule, if a card is in the trash, then it can't be "trashed" - moved from elsewhere (presumably from somewhere that isn't the trash).
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Jeebus

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2014, 11:05:30 am »
+1

Rrwoods is correct. It's funny that people now say that Throne Room/Mining Village doesn't need lose-track, because Throne Room/Mining Village was the actual card interaction (with just those two cards) that forced Donald to reveal the lose-track rule in the first place, back in the classic BGG thread. And it was not the "you can't trash a card that's already in the Trash" part. That part was explained without the need of lose-track. It wasn't until someone pointed out that playing a card causes it to be placed in the play area, thereby making the movement of the card to the Trash possible, that Donald brought up lose-track. Lose-track is the reason the card doesn't go back in play.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 11:08:03 am by Jeebus »
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soulnet

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Re: Kings Court Timing & Trashing nonreal cards
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2014, 11:17:43 am »
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The Lose Track Rule for programmers web developers:

Fixed that for you.
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