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Author Topic: Procession of Rats!  (Read 5315 times)

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Rabid

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Procession of Rats!
« on: January 14, 2014, 05:22:13 pm »
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http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140114/log.50ec989ce4b0433d9e57d38e.1389737561423.txt



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Stonemason, Nomad Camp, Plaza, Procession, Rats, Cultist, Jester, Market, Altar, Farmland
My favourite board in a long time, thought I would share.
A cool feature of using rats as part of the 3 pile ending is the control it gives you in the end game.
I draw better than average in the above game, but it does show several really nice tricks.
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Davio

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2014, 05:34:37 am »
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A really cool Procession board, not only Rats, but Cultists too!
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Destierro

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2014, 11:31:54 am »
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The outcome was certainly cool, but I really think that Rats is suicidal here. There's nothing to trash it that gives a real benefit. Farmland is the closest thing, and you used that, but I doubt it would beat some sort of Cultist/ Plaza engine. Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.
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KingZog3

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2014, 12:16:37 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.

It actually only gives 1 Rats, because you trash the one you Procession. So Trash 2 cards, Gain a Rats, Gain a $5 card, +1 card from trashing Rats.
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flies

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2014, 01:56:28 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.

It actually only gives 1 Rats, because you trash the one you Procession. So Trash 2 cards, Gain a Rats, Gain a $5 card, +1 card from trashing Rats.
either way, you've got one more rats than you started with.  the only way to trash them is altar or farmland, neither of which is really ideal. 

it's something like playing two rats, a village (from procession), a lab (on-trash benefit), gain a $5.

This is much better than just rats.  the requirement of matching your procession with rats is negligible if you have a lot of rats.

Here it works because Ruins are gone, and you can empty Rats and Markets very fast for a surprise 3-pile ending, plus the ruins give you lots of things to convert into Rats.  Now that you've got a lot of control over the end of the game, your ability to get points is rather limited, your best source of points is farmland, which is just one point better than duchy.

So I'd say it's not to be attempted without awareness of what made it work here.
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Awaclus

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2014, 01:58:12 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.
It's a lot better than just playing two Rats, which is already very good in some situations.
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liopoil

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 03:35:16 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.
It's a lot better than just playing two Rats, which is already very good in some situations.
It's (edge cases aside) like playing a card that says: "+2 cards, +2 actions, trash 2 non-rats cards from your hand, gain a rats and a 5-cost"

pretty good.
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flies

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 03:43:32 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.
It's a lot better than just playing two Rats, which is already very good in some situations.
It's (edge cases aside) like playing a card that says: "+2 cards, +2 actions, trash 2 non-rats cards from your hand, gain a rats and a 5-cost"

pretty good.
There is an edge case here because gaining two rats (while trashing one) enables you to empty the Rats pile.
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liopoil

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 03:48:03 pm »
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there are lots of edge cases, that's why I said edge-cases aside. I could have a watchtower in hand! or a trader! or a market square! or maybe a cost reducer is in play! maybe it matters that you have to trash the non-rats card in-between drawing cards!
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flies

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 03:54:04 pm »
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sure.  given that this edge case was what enabled rabid to win, i felt the (irrepressible) need to emphasize it.
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liopoil

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 03:55:20 pm »
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sure.  given that this edge case was what enabled rabid to win, i felt the (irrepressible) need to emphasize it.
oh, I didn't actually look at the log :P
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Destierro

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 06:44:31 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.
It's a lot better than just playing two Rats, which is already very good in some situations.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a lot better. Strictly speaking, it does give more benefits than playing two rats, but at the cost of wasting your procession. That procession could have much better targets, and it can't hit those if your deck is mostly rats.
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Awaclus

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 07:04:25 pm »
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Processioning Rats is rarely a good idea, as it gives you two more rats, and only one 5 cost card.
It's a lot better than just playing two Rats, which is already very good in some situations.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a lot better. Strictly speaking, it does give more benefits than playing two rats, but at the cost of wasting your procession. That procession could have much better targets, and it can't hit those if your deck is mostly rats.
Rats is one of the best targets for TFB such as Procession.
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flies

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 08:24:31 pm »
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Of course it's "a lot" better.  You get an extra card, an extra action, you trash a rats, and you get a $5 cost action.  That's way, way better.
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KingZog3

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 10:11:25 pm »
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Of course it's "a lot" better.  You get an extra card, an extra action, you trash a rats, and you get a $5 cost action.  That's way, way better.

It actually does sound a lot better then just gaining a Rats and trashing 1 card.
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Destierro

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2014, 10:20:25 pm »
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By the time your Procession and Rats collide, it's likely you won't want to trash 2 cards, if you've been trashing with rats beforehand. It makes Procession ill-suited to capitalize on Rat's strengths. Rats is great with TfB, just not Procession.

Also, look at the log. When Rabid ended the game, he had no way to ever get Provinces. Even getting more 6$ cards would have been a stretch. The Rats destroyed his economy, and if he hadn't pulled out a clever win, he would have lost in the end game.

Of course it's "a lot" better.  You get an extra card, an extra action, you trash a rats, and you get a $5 cost action.  That's way, way better.

Procession Rats becomes (Net) +2 Actions, +3 Cards, Trash 2 non-Rats, Gain a Rats, Gain a 5$ card. Sure it looks like it's better, but it will be hard to put together a hand where you have Procession / Rats / Two cards you want to trash after the second collision. I would much rather use my procession on a Plaza or a Cultist.
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flies

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 12:17:23 am »
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By the time your Procession and Rats collide, it's likely you won't want to trash 2 cards, if you've been trashing with rats beforehand. It makes Procession ill-suited to capitalize on Rat's strengths. Rats is great with TfB, just not Procession.

Also, look at the log. When Rabid ended the game, he had no way to ever get Provinces. Even getting more 6$ cards would have been a stretch. The Rats destroyed his economy, and if he hadn't pulled out a clever win, he would have lost in the end game.
I basically agree.  Here, he had lots to trash bc he lost the ruins split, which in turn may have been due to going for rats in the first place.  I wrote above as to the limitations of procession/rats pointing out several ways this board is special in making it viable.  I also agree with your earlier point that with altar being the only way to remove rats from the deck, it's still not that great here.

I think you're selling the clever win short, tho.  Piling out could have been predicted, and the rats player has a lot more control over when that happens. 

Quote
Of course it's "a lot" better.  You get an extra card, an extra action, you trash a rats, and you get a $5 cost action.  That's way, way better.

Procession Rats becomes (Net) +2 Actions, +3 Cards, Trash 2 non-Rats, Gain a Rats, Gain a 5$ card. Sure it looks like it's better, but it will be hard to put together a hand where you have Procession / Rats / Two cards you want to trash after the second collision. I would much rather use my procession on a Plaza or a Cultist.

matching procession and rats and two things you want to trash is hard.  This is true.  If you think you can do that, then it's kind of a bonanza. 
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liopoil

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 07:30:07 am »
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Well, you get to draw a card before you trash, and another before you trash again. also, it's net +2 cards, not three, because proccession-rats took up two spots in hand.
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Destierro

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Re: Procession of Rats!
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 09:15:33 am »
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Well, you get to draw a card before you trash, and another before you trash again. also, it's net +2 cards, not three, because proccession-rats took up two spots in hand.
But you draw a card from trashing rats. It increases the handsize like a lab is what I meant.
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